Death!

[Constance]

One more thing relative to the above^. We're already accustomed to two levels of ordinary waking consciousness in the distinction made by the phenomenologists between non-reflective consciousness and reflective consciousness. We get used to this in a transparent way as we're growing up, but some of us suddenly realize it in young adulthood and can find it at first somewhat destabilizing. I realized it at some point in my meditative treks up and down a large hill as I walked back and forth to the English-Philosophy Building at the University of Iowa, a few years after my OBE in Wisconsin. It shook me up quite a bit, more than the OBE had. It's amazing how little we know about our own mentality. A more enlightened society might one day provide instruction for school children about what consciousness and mind are.

 

[Polterwurst]

"the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise"

That's magnificent poetry, Polterwurst. Thank you for it.

It's from The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. Which is a book about death, according to the author. It seems that he was convinced of the afterlife. If you've seen the movies, the tear-soaked "second ending" which has been critizised as superfluous and overdone, is actually quite relevant in terms of message: it doesn't end in Mordor (= with death).

Although Tolkien was opposed to theories that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory for anything early on, he later came around to saying that. And it does fit, if you think of the Shire as an idyllic childhood which is disturbed by the sudden disappearance of an elderly relative, followed by the dark initiation into a seemingly inescapable doom.

There's even an NDE described, complete with the experiencer being "sent back on a mission", although I don't think Tolkien would have known the term or would have consciously written it as such.

Would you tell us more about your experiences indicative of reincarnation?

I described them in the "Born Again" thread, one of my first posts on the forums. You should also check out the following exchange with Ufology, in which I went into a little more detail. I left out a lot of the most convincing evidence, though, because it's a little too personal, but we can start a private conversation about that.

 

[Constance]

It's from The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. Which is a book about death, according to the author. It seems that he was convinced of the afterlife. If you've seen the movies, the tear-soaked "second ending" which has been critizised as superfluous and overdone, is actually quite relevant in terms of message: it doesn't end in Mordor (= with death).

Although Tolkien was opposed to theories that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory for anything early on, he later came around to saying that. And it does fit, if you think of the Shire as an idyllic childhood which is disturbed by the sudden disappearance of an elderly relative, followed by the dark initiation into a seemingly inescapable doom.

There's even an NDE described, complete with the experiencer being "sent back on a mission", although I don't think Tolkien would have known the term or would have consciously written it as such.



I described them in the "Born Again" thread, one of my first posts on the forums. You should also check out the following exchange with Ufology, in which I went into a little more detail. I left out a lot of the most convincing evidence, though, because it's a little too personal, but we can start a private conversation about that.

Excellent. I'll read that thread. Re Tolkien, I somehow never read The Lord of the Rings or saw the film. The quotation you posted from the novel inclines me to read it now. I would like to discuss reincarnation with you. I was formerly closed to the idea of it (pure reaction formation), but reading some of Ian Stephenson's research in recent years changed my mind; it clearly does occur. I remember asking my grief counselor six years ago why reincarnation exists, what its purpose is. As a transpersonal psychologist she was trained in a great deal of psi, paranormal, and other anomalous kinds of experience and their history. I found her by pure chance, perhaps synchronicity, out of the many psychologists in this city. Her answer was that it seems to occur by choice of discarnate individuals, with some encouragement from the elders/teachers on the other side, for the purpose of developing the consciousness and spirituality of our species.

 

[Randall]

Blow Away
From the Album Never Forever - Artist: Kate Bush

One of the band told me last night
That music is all that he's got in his life.
So where does it go?
Surely not with his soul.
Will all of his licks and his R'n'B blow away?

Blow away
Blow away

Our engineer had a different idea
From people who nearly died but survived,
Feeling no fear of leaving their bodies here,
And went to a room that was soon full of visitors.
Hello Minnie, Moony, Vicious, Vicious, Buddy Holly, Sandy Denny.

Please don't thump me,
Don't bump me,
Don't dump me back there.
Please don't thump me,
Don't bump me,
I want to stay here.

Put out the light, then, put out the light.
Vibes in the sky invite you to dine.
Dust to dust,
Blow to blow.
Bolan and Moony are heading the show tonight.

Hello Minnie, Moony, ("Bill " ?), Vicious, Vicious,
Buddy Holly, Sandy Denny.
Please don't thump me,
Don't bump me,
Don't dump me back there.
Please don't thump me,
Don't bump me,
I want to stay here.​

 

[smcder]

It's from The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. Which is a book about death, according to the author. It seems that he was convinced of the afterlife. If you've seen the movies, the tear-soaked "second ending" which has been critizised as superfluous and overdone, is actually quite relevant in terms of message: it doesn't end in Mordor (= with death).

Although Tolkien was opposed to theories that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory for anything early on, he later came around to saying that. And it does fit, if you think of the Shire as an idyllic childhood which is disturbed by the sudden disappearance of an elderly relative, followed by the dark initiation into a seemingly inescapable doom.

There's even an NDE described, complete with the experiencer being "sent back on a mission", although I don't think Tolkien would have known the term or would have consciously written it as such.



I described them in the "Born Again" thread, one of my first posts on the forums. You should also check out the following exchange with Ufology, in which I went into a little more detail. I left out a lot of the most convincing evidence, though, because it's a little too personal, but we can start a private conversation about that.

It's from The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. Which is a book about death, according to the author. It seems that he was convinced of the afterlife.

Tolkien was a devout Catholic.

 

[Wade]

In a (somewhat) related vein here's a story from earlier this year about scientists isolating the "fear" gene which was essential to us in our past...and perhaps just as much so today.

To a certain extent death and fear are inexorably intertwined ( I'm not talking about thanatophobia ) as it kept man from succumbing to a premature death in predator and prey days.

Scientists Find Possible Way to Silence Fear Gene | Genetics | Sci-News.com

I wonder if it came to be that even if scientist's were able to diminish this emotion if it would not just help eliminate phobias but also cause people to act more carelessly as their fear of blowback would also be diminished, or would our self preservation conditioning override the absence of fear, or is this a separate issue altogether ?

It seems to me that self preservation is also tied to the concept of fear.

 

[Polterwurst]

Tolkien was a devout Catholic.

I know, and it can't have been that easy in a mostly protestant country. But being a devout christian doesn't always mean that you are convinced of heaven and hell. My mother is a devout Catholic, for example, but I know she is actually very doubtful of that part.

 

[Randall]

Don't Fear The Reaper
( RECORDED BY BLUE OYSTER CULT )

All our times have come
Here, but now they're gone
Seasons don't fear the reaper
Nor do the wind, the sun or the rain
We can be like they are

Come on baby
Don't fear the reaper
Baby take my hand
Don't fear the reaper
We'll be able to fly
Don't fear the reaper
Baby I'm your man

La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la

Valentine is done
Here but now they're gone
Romeo and Juliet
Are together in eternity

Romeo and Juliet
40,000 men and women every day
Like Romeo and Juliet
40,000 men and women every day
Redefine happiness
Another 40,000 coming every day
We can be like they are

Come on baby
Don't fear the reaper
Baby take my hand
Don't fear the reaper
We'll be able to fly
Don't fear the reaper
Baby I'm your man

La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la

Love of two is one
Here but now they're gone
Came the last night of sadness
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew and then disappeared
The curtains flew and then he appeared
Saying, "Don't be afraid"

Come on baby
And she had no fear
And she ran to him
Then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodbye
She had become like they are
She had taken his hand
She had become like they are
Come on baby
Don't fear the reaper​

 

[marduk]

One of the questions I sometimes ask others is, "If you could choose to live forever would you want to?", and a surprising number of answers are negative. I'm not among that group, and I'm constantly surprised by those who prefer an eventual certain death over eternal life.

I'm confused by that one, too.

I mean, I can go from a bounded, finite number of times I get to have sex to an infinite number of times I get to have sex.

Where do I join?

 

[smcder]

My daughter's name is Ani. Our brush with death with her in the ICU this past spring rocked my world in a way that I haven't been destabilized since watching my father drown. I have not really properly processed that part of the hospital experience as she is here and is monitored closely as hypoglycemia is always just around the corner, so life has this edge to it that does not provide a cushion to take time to deal with what happened. In fact, to be honest, I prefer not to think about that part of the experience and tend to just block that out altogether, as I have found that death and close calls with it tend to have the power to pull me underwater, and then I'm just useless to everyone. Not to sure if it"s my mindfulness training that has allowed me to simply accept things as they are or if my brain simply made an executive decision to not be plagued by that which is beyond my control, but either way, the path always leads forward and I work hard not to look backwards anymore.

I spent a lot of time looking backwards after my father's death and I lost a tremendous amount of time. In fact I was just plain lost for quite a while over that death, even though I had a living family right in front of me. Traumatic experiences associated with such events...I don't know - Sudden Death just rearranges our priorities sometimes in ways we are never quite prepared for as we were never really given any tools previously to know how to deal with it. As a society, I feel our attitudes around death are not that healthy, mostly because we don't talk about it much and fail to share, heal or know how to integrate such an experience into our lives.

Thank you for sharing, Burnt.

I agree our attitudes are not healthy - we put death and aging and disability out of sight ... funeral parlors sanitize the physical effects of death ... denial about physical changes drives a number of industries. Medical intervention can lead to great longevity that brings higher rates of serious illness like cancer and forms of mental degeneration which in turn drives the nursing home industry ... there comes a time when dying can better be done quickly.

As little education as there is on how to deal with the death of a loved one, there is ... none? ... on how to do the dying yourself. I can see people being stoic simply because they have no idea how they are supposed to act. Paul Newman said something in an interview a few years before he died that he hoped he was good at the dying thing. I like that.

 

[smcder]

My daughter's name is Ani. Our brush with death with her in the ICU this past spring rocked my world in a way that I haven't been destabilized since watching my father drown. I have not really properly processed that part of the hospital experience as she is here and is monitored closely as hypoglycemia is always just around the corner, so life has this edge to it that does not provide a cushion to take time to deal with what happened. In fact, to be honest, I prefer not to think about that part of the experience and tend to just block that out altogether, as I have found that death and close calls with it tend to have the power to pull me underwater, and then I'm just useless to everyone. Not to sure if it"s my mindfulness training that has allowed me to simply accept things as they are or if my brain simply made an executive decision to not be plagued by that which is beyond my control, but either way, the path always leads forward and I work hard not to look backwards anymore.

I spent a lot of time looking backwards after my father's death and I lost a tremendous amount of time. In fact I was just plain lost for quite a while over that death, even though I had a living family right in front of me. Traumatic experiences associated with such events...I don't know - Sudden Death just rearranges our priorities sometimes in ways we are never quite prepared for as we were never really given any tools previously to know how to deal with it. As a society, I feel our attitudes around death are not that healthy, mostly because we don't talk about it much and fail to share, heal or know how to integrate such an experience into our lives.

Talk collections | dhammatalks.org

#35 a decent education #48 the saints don't grieve and the series "A Refuge from Death" are excellent ... shows the practical side of Buddhism in terms of the individual's approach to death.

 

[smcder]

I know, and it can't have been that easy in a mostly protestant country. But being a devout christian doesn't always mean that you are convinced of heaven and hell. My mother is a devout Catholic, for example, but I know she is actually very doubtful of that part.

... and belief is moment by moment ... practice is more important to some who can't feel belief or get conviction ... pure faith gets caricatured when it can be a response to lack of belief ... more complicated than it's critics portray it

I've run into some folks who didn't know Tolkien was Catholic - I knew he resisted the idea of allegory ... so he could have just been writing a story. Enormously influential on CS Lewis of course.

Do you think he's a good writer though all in all? First rank? Have you read the Simarillon? (Sp?)

 

[Randall]

Knockin' On Heaven's Door
RECORDED BY BOB DYLAN

Mama, take this badge off of me
I can't use it anymore.
It's gettin' dark, too dark to see
I feel I'm knockin' on heaven's door.

Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door
Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door
Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door
Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door

Mama, put my guns in the ground
I can't shoot them anymore.
That long black cloud is comin' down
I feel I'm knockin' on heaven's door.

Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door
Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door
Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door
Knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door​

 

[smcder]

Why do you keep posting song lyrics?

 

[manxman]

Your all questions, you are.

 

[smcder]

Who? Me?

 

[smcder]

Just keeping my thread clean Manxie.

 

[Polterwurst]

Do you think he's a good writer though all in all? First rank? Have you read the Simarillon? (Sp?)

In terms of writing a modern bestseller or suspense novel, he surely wasn't very good. While the Hobbit was easy to read, the LotR is anything but a page-turner. But if you can get past the drawn-out, slow-moving beginning, Tolkien's knowledge of old languages and mythology together with a good sense for poetical (if outmoded) language makes for a very good read with its own incomparable magic.

I don't think the Silmarillion was ever intended to be read like a novel, whereas the Hobbit and LotR obviously were. To get back on topic, I doubt that Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings as a "book about death" in the first place, but he later realized that this was its main theme. He was in his midlife phase and WW II with the fear of losing a son in it (and probably the memories of his own war-time experience) would have made it a concern.

 

[Constance]

The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Dylan Thomas, 1914 - 1953

The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.

The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams
Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.

The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman’s lime.

The lips of time leech to the fountain head;
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather’s wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.

And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.



Reading the article linked below drove the first line of this poem into my consciousness and I had to find and share the whole of it. See if the contents of the paper strike you the same way.

A New Thermodynamics Theory of the Origin of Life | Simons Foundation

Extract:

“. . .The chemistry of the primordial soup, random mutations, geography, catastrophic events and countless other factors have contributed to the fine details of Earth’s diverse flora and fauna. But according to England’s theory, the underlying principle driving the whole process is dissipation-driven adaptation of matter.

This principle would apply to inanimate matter as well. “It is very tempting to speculate about what phenomena in nature we can now fit under this big tent of dissipation-driven adaptive organization,” England said. “Many examples could just be right under our nose, but because we haven’t been looking for them we haven’t noticed them.”

Scientists have already observed self-replication in nonliving systems. According to new research led by Philip Marcus of the University of California, Berkeley, and reported in Physical Review Letters in August, vortices in turbulent fluids spontaneously replicate themselves by drawing energy from shear in the surrounding fluid. And in a paper appearing online this week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Michael Brenner, a professor of applied mathematics and physics at Harvard, and his collaborators present theoretical models and simulations of microstructures that self-replicate. These clusters of specially coated microspheres dissipate energy by roping nearby spheres into forming identical clusters. “This connects very much to what Jeremy is saying,” Brenner said.

Besides self-replication, greater structural organization is another means by which strongly driven systems ramp up their ability to dissipate energy. A plant, for example, is much better at capturing and routing solar energy through itself than an unstructured heap of carbon atoms. Thus, England argues that under certain conditions, matter will spontaneously self-organize. This tendency could account for the internal order of living things and of many inanimate structures as well. “Snowflakes, sand dunes and turbulent vortices all have in common that they are strikingly patterned structures that emerge in many-particle systems driven by some dissipative process,” he said. Condensation, wind and viscous drag are the relevant processes in these particular cases.

'He is making me think that the distinction between living and nonliving matter is not sharp,' said Carl Franck, a biological physicist at Cornell University, in an email. 'I’m particularly impressed by this notion when one considers systems as small as chemical circuits involving a few biomolecules.'

If [the] new theory is correct, the same physics it identifies as responsible for the origin of living things could explain the formation of many other patterned structures in nature. Snowflakes, sand dunes and self-replicating vortices in the protoplanetary disk may all be examples of dissipation-driven adaptation. . . ."

 

[Randall]

Why do you keep posting song lyrics?

Perhaps I post lyrics for the same reason Constance posts poetry. The lyrics I've posted all deal with the topic of this thread ( Death ), and have a personal meaning to me ( as well as many other people ). So that seems to fit within the boundaries. If not, maybe you could explain why not, and based on that, I'll try to contribute something that is more on target to what you are after. I would have posted the music too, but you said you don't have a good connection, so I figured you could always acquire the music yourself if you were so inclined.