David's question: "How can you use it if you don't know how it works?"

[thegreenman]

David's question: "How can you use it if you don't know how it works?"

C'mon David,

You're better than that.

 

[Brian Now]

You listened past that point right? He did sort of qualify what he meant after he said that.

 

[daz smith]

Greenman,
ask any person out there to tell you exactly how the internet works and how IP addresses create a web of contacts - most would say they cant yet you and I and millions can still use the internet.

You don't have to know exactly how something works to use it.

daz

 

[David Biedny]

Well, here's the point:

When you know how something works, you can use it more effectively than someone doesn't know how the same item/tool works.

dB

 

[dyingsun]

Well, here's the point:

When you know how something works, you can use it more effectively than someone doesn't know how the same item/tool works.

dB

Indeed, I thought that was global knowledge.

 

[daz smith]

No I disagree. You or I knowing the ins and outs of IP addressing systems between computers does not in ANY way make us better at using the internet.

If it does then please feel free to give me a couple of working examples of how this would help a normal internet user get better performance?

What you are describing is basic skills and familiarity with a process not an in depth knowing of the workings of the tool.

Yes as much knowledge as you can garner is always going to make you better but absolute knowledge of everything isn't essential to get good use form anything. Practice makes perfect.

daz

 

[dyingsun]

I would agree with your statement if it just covered 'basic' things, I am sure there are better Hunter/Gatherers than me out there.You can't deny that 'training' in any sort or form, will improve your skills in 'whatever' field.

I do think that knowledge of specific things, whatever they may be, gives one an 'edge' .

 

[daz smith]

Training will definately help.
Knowledge of specific things as well.

which leads to the original question.
How can I use remote viewing - if i don't know how it works.

Well i don't know how it works.
But my 13 + years of training and usage has given me glimpses of 'some' specifics (hence an edge) and allot of practice/experience - that is how I can use it.

daz

 

[thegreenman]

I understand all the above folks.

I have just come to expect a certain level of excellence from David, and he kind of let me down on that one.

When, for instance, did we humans learn how our senses of sight, touch, taste, smell, and hearing work?

It's obvious that the early and proto-humans were able to use them effectively, while being completely ignorant of how they work, or else we would have failed as a species.

Another example,
My brother is an excellent knife-thrower. He can hit just about any target, at will, from 60' or less with nearly 100% accuracy. he does this despite the fact that he knows absolutely nothing about physics, aerodynamics, drag coefficients or the like.

Conversely, knowing how something works does not necessarily impart the ability to operate it, if that were true the mechanics who build race cars would be the best drivers.

 

[dissent]

No I disagree. You or I knowing the ins and outs of IP addressing systems between computers does not in ANY way make us better at using the internet.

If it does then please feel free to give me a couple of working examples of how this would help a normal internet user get better performance?

daz

As long as your connection is OK it doesn't make that much of a difference.
But when the shit hits the fan, someone with good networking skills will be back online before the normal user has even begun to dial their IT helpdesk

I hope you understand my POV, don't want to go real nerdy with realworld examples :-D

 

[Xylo]

David's question: "How can you use it if you don't know how it works?"

C'mon David,

You're better than that.

I just keep picturing me trying to teach myself Photoshop. And that's a trainwreck you don't want to miss.

 

[BrandonD]

Well, here's the point:

When you know how something works, you can use it more effectively than someone doesn't know how the same item/tool works.

dB

This is an interesting subject, one I've thought about alot. I don't think I necessarily agree with the above statement. I think that in most cases, intellectually "knowing" how something works is not necessary to use something most effectively, and it is far less effective than simply direct usage.

For example, a doctor may intellectually know the entire ins and outs of how the legs work, how the muscles interact, but still he cannot use the body nearly as effectively as a track star. The track star actually "knows" his body better, through direct usage. He may not even be able to communicate how he can use his body, how he utilizes his breathing to its best potential for example. He simply does it.

An art scholar perhaps intellectually knows all the ins and outs of creating a work of art. Every era, every style, every medium. And yet he cannot create art more effectively than the artist himself. Who may be totally ignorant of how he creates what he does. He is more effective through direct usage.

Even with mechanical tools this is the case. Who would you pick to win the indy 500 out of these 2 people: A man who's been a mechanic for 30 years and knows the entire ins and outs of a race car but has never driven a race, or a 10-time race winner who is largely ignorant of how his car works?

I think this is a fascinating subject, and I think it relates to the persistent idea that it is possible to encompass the world with our mind, and thus master the world from within the safety of our head. I don't think this is possible, and yet often I still try to intellectually "know" everything before I take a step anywhere.

I think this idea probably afflicts us guys more than it does women, but I could be wrong.

(EDIT: Oops I just noticed that I was sorta redundantly repeating points that other people have already made, funny that two people picked race cars as an example)

 

[Schuyler]

If it does then please feel free to give me a couple of working examples of how this would help a normal internet user get better performance?

I like examples. Examples are good. Here's one. I have a Wi-Fi network in my house. You can 'secure' a Wi-Fi network at the router level, but if you read the directions on the router, you will find them to be nearly indecipherable--unless you understand hexadecimal. They say, for example, to 'enter a string of hex.' Of course, you could use a cookbook approach, but that's like using "password" for your password, pretty lame. You can also mate your router and network to the computers in your home by entering their MAC addresses in a table to give them exclusive access. Of course, if you have no idea what a MAC address is or what it looks like, or how to find it, you're not going to be able to do it. I don't need directions or a book on how to do this. My neighbor has no idea what all this is about. My network is 'secure'; his is not. Does it matter? Depends. If you get your bandwidth stolen or someone does a copyrighted torrent off your router it might matter a lot. That's an example of how knowing how it works makes you more efficient.

Here's another. Everybody Googles. Google does a pretty good job of guessing what you really want. So most people just type in a question or a few words. Google typically returns a zillion hits and if you see what you want on the first page, you're there. People spend a lot of time and effort to get their sites on that very first page because most people won't go any further. Most people have no clue how Google hits are manipulated by advertisers bidding on keywords or using meta tags. However, if you understand Boolean logic, you can turn sloppy Google into a very precise search engine. You use 'and' 'or' 'not' and 'nor' properly, and you'll get the ten hits you're after--not a zillion. You are thereby a much more efficient user.

There. I didn't take two hours to give you zero examples. I gave you two in as many minutes, examples of how knowledge of your tools makes you a more efficient user.

 

[Schuyler]

Another example,
My brother is an excellent knife-thrower. He can hit just about any target, at will, from 60' or less with nearly 100% accuracy. he does this despite the fact that he knows absolutely nothing about physics, aerodynamics, drag coefficients or the like.

I suggest your brother DOES know all about physics, aerodynamics, drag coefficients, and the like. He's honed it to a fine art. So does my dog. He can compute a perfect trigonometric function in his brain just by looking at a ball in flight and catch it in his mouth. He can do the math in his head a lot better than I can do it on paper. Now, expressing it--that's another matter.

 

[BrandonD]

I suggest your brother DOES know all about physics, aerodynamics, drag coefficients, and the like. He's honed it to a fine art. So does my dog. He can compute a perfect trigonometric function in his brain just by looking at a ball in flight and catch it in his mouth. He can do the math in his head a lot better than I can do it on paper. Now, expressing it--that's another matter.

I think this is a case of terminology. The knife thrower does not "know" physics in the same way that the professor "knows" physics. One can talk about it but not utilize it, the other can utilize it but not talk about it.

This is one of my favorite subjects, because to me it sorta illustrates that we won't ever know the "truth" by just talking about it.

 

[daz smith]

lol sorry but this isnt an answer to my question?

I like examples. Examples are good. Here's one. I have a Wi-Fi network in my house. You can 'secure' a Wi-Fi network at the router level, but if you read the directions on the router, you will find them to be nearly indecipherable--unless you understand hexadecimal. They say, for example, to 'enter a string of hex.' Of course, you could use a cookbook approach, but that's like using "password" for your password, pretty lame. You can also mate your router and network to the computers in your home by entering their MAC addresses in a table to give them exclusive access. Of course, if you have no idea what a MAC address is or what it looks like, or how to find it, you're not going to be able to do it. I don't need directions or a book on how to do this. My neighbor has no idea what all this is about. My network is 'secure'; his is not. Does it matter? Depends. If you get your bandwidth stolen or someone does a copyrighted torrent off your router it might matter a lot. That's an example of how knowing how it works makes you more efficient.

Here's another. Everybody Googles. Google does a pretty good job of guessing what you really want. So most people just type in a question or a few words. Google typically returns a zillion hits and if you see what you want on the first page, you're there. People spend a lot of time and effort to get their sites on that very first page because most people won't go any further. Most people have no clue how Google hits are manipulated by advertisers bidding on keywords or using meta tags. However, if you understand Boolean logic, you can turn sloppy Google into a very precise search engine. You use 'and' 'or' 'not' and 'nor' properly, and you'll get the ten hits you're after--not a zillion. You are thereby a much more efficient user.

There. I didn't take two hours to give you zero examples. I gave you two in as many minutes, examples of how knowledge of your tools makes you a more efficient user.

my question was:

You or I knowing the ins and outs of IP addressing systems between computers does not in ANY way make us better at using the internet.

If it does then please feel free to give me a couple of working examples of how this would help a normal internet user get better performance?

Your answer does not answer how knowing about the intricacies of IP address handling (the underpinning of how the internet works) would make a NORMAL internet user better?

daz

 

[Ralph]

No I disagree. You or I knowing the ins and outs of IP addressing systems between computers does not in ANY way make us better at using the internet.

A good analogy. I agree, to an limit...
1. Some people have a very limited understanding of the Internet, and that limits their ability to use it.
2. As an Internet Architect for a large company it was my job to enable my company to use the Internet in innovative ways. Knowing how to use the Internet as an average user was not enough information to enable my company to use the internet efficiently and effectively for a high volume, mission critical, high security business channel.

The whole drive of science is to understand the behavior and mechanisms of natural phenomena, in the hope of being able to harness them in new and more effective ways.

We have Remote Viewing protocols because SRI did exactly that.
Future research into the mechanisms of RV may be discover that effectiveness is doubled if we RV wearing green underwear and tin foil hats.

 

[thegreenman]

I suggest your brother DOES know all about physics, aerodynamics, drag coefficients, and the like. He's honed it to a fine art. So does my dog. He can compute a perfect trigonometric function in his brain just by looking at a ball in flight and catch it in his mouth. He can do the math in his head a lot better than I can do it on paper. Now, expressing it--that's another matter.

I get your point, but it does reinforce my original post.

Meaning that: remote viewing may be intuitively and subconsciously understood and used without being explicitly, objectively, and consciously known and understood.

I say we are in agreement.

 

[Gareth]

Schuyler your Google example is exactly what Daz does for his remote viewing.

Daz said that although he doesnt know how remote viewing works - he doesnt know the mechanics and what processes are happening to allow him to view a remote object - he is still able to use RV and has picked up little bits and pieces of things along the way that help him to do it better.

The Google user is in the same boat. They dont know how the algortithms work for retrieving documents and information across the web. But they can use Google anyway. And some brighter folk have figured out some stuff that will help them like using "" and AND, etc, but this knowledge has nothing to do with how Google technology is able to do what it does.

 

[David Biedny]

Boolean logic has EVERYTHING to do with how Google works under the hood, and having a good technical grasp of the underlying dbase technology helps anyone become a better online researcher, as Schuyler has aptly pointed out. Sorry, Gareth, that's the simple fact.

As far as "normal" internet users - if we assume Daz is referring to the moronic masses - these people are not users, they are consumers, and make only minimal use of the technology. They do not use 1% of the potential of the internet, because the don't understand how it works. The race car driver who has a deep understanding of the workings of the transmission and engine definitely has the potential to be a much more effective driver, as they are painfully aware of the capabilities and limitations of their primary medium. Any astronaut needs to know a LOT about the tech which gets them into space - in order to deal with unforeseen problems and dynamic situations. Les Paul was able to be musically adventurous exactly because of his deep understanding of technology, in the same way that Tommy Dowd was able to use his deep understanding of recording tech to make better recordings and help define the state of the art of music for over 50 years. Jimi Hendrix was a tech fanatic, and that helped him define the edge of his sound, and keeps him relevant to this day, long after his passing.

If you want to debate the idea that understanding how something works help one make better use of said something, tread carefully, especially if referencing technology, because you'll end up looking like you don't actually understand how technology and humans relate to each other.

The bottom line: anyone can use things without understanding how they work, but those who take the time to learn about what they're doing invariably have a competitive edge. IMO, no one here has refuted that point with any sort of relevant logic or example, quite the contrary.

dB