Conspiracies, or just a plain devolution of society at large?

[Jeff Davis]

Both in times past, and very much so recently with all the present focus on the absolute reality of university and college education rip off, the value of an "education" has really weighed heavy on my mind. My own daughter is now in her second year of college, and I also talk to many young people nearly everyday that are undergoing this educational process. Sadly, I also get to talk with many people that are educated up the wazoo but can't find a job to save their life within their respective fields of qualification. All the while mustering the courage to actually go out and get a couple of part time jobs just so they can keep from being declared criminals by the very institutions that they intrusted their educations to in the first place.

I have always wondered why so many of the greatest minds of all time, the inventors and business moguls that have most served to shape our lives today, were in many case never educated and if they were, they tended to find little favor or benefit within the process itself. Some actually either just dropping out due to it all being perceived as an overly expensive waste of time, while others merely couldn't cut it according to the academics in charge and were literally ejected forcibly, or perhaps merely derided as imbeciles until they quite.

When people cry for unrealistic and completely idealistic measures to educate society as a whole, are they honestly doing anyone any real favor? If anything, these notions seem to aid in despair and ultimate frustration more so than "fixing" anything.

The right mind when coupled with an education can yield tremendous results. Accounting for exceptional success. However, it comes down to the mind, certainly not the education. The wrong mind combined with an education is a cumbersome affair that often results in highly qualified hamburger flippers at Micky Ds.

When I think back to the inventions such as those that Edison gave us, where are the newest societal chapters in this invention process? Has such a creative and productive legacy been interrupted, or lost to a change in the human brain?

No it has not.

Is this an anti education post? No it is not. What it is however is evidence to the effect that the mind is where real ingenuity, improvisation, and creativity come from, apart from the educational process. It is also evidence that great minds are in no way dependent on the formal education process to achieve greater results than the vast majority of those that are "taught how to think".

The true nature of understanding is first and foremost an intuitive one, derived from within, not from without. The following people never received a formal education beyond high school. Some of the more potentially inventive, or exceptionally accomplishment oriented minds, never received that much.

S. Daniel Abraham, billionaire founder of Slim-Fast.
Ansel Adams, photographer. Dropped out of high school.
Christina Aguilera, singer, songwriter. High school dropout.
Hans Christian Andersen, short story author, fairy tales.
John Jacob Astor, multimillionaire businessman.
Carl Bernstein, Watergate reporter, Washington Post.
Yogi Berra, baseball player, coach, and manager.
Timonthy Blixseth, billionaire founder of Yellowstone Club.
Daniel Boone, explorer, frontier leader.
Ray Bradbury, science fiction author.
Richard Branson, billionaire founder of Virgin Music.
Sergey Brin, billionaire founder of Google.
Edgar Bronfman Jr., billionaire heir to the Seagram liquor fortune.
John Carmack, cofounder of Id Software.
Andrew Carnegie, industrialist and philanthropist.
Scott Carpenter, astronaut.
John Chancellor, TV journalist and anchorman.
Winston Churchill, British prime minister.
Charles Culpeper, multimillionaire owner and CEO of Coca Cola.
Michael Dell, founder of Dell Computers.
Charles Dickens, bestselling novelist.
Walt Disney — yes, THAT Walt Disney.
George Eastman, multimillionaire inventor and founder of Kodak.
Larry Ellison, billionaire co-founder of Oracle software company.
Debbi Fields, founder of Mrs. Fields Cookies.
Carly Fiorina, CEO, Hewlett-Packard.
Bobby Fischer, chess master.
Henry Ford, billionaire founder of Ford Motor Company.
R. Buckminster Fuller, inventor of the geodesic dome.
Bill Gates, billionaire co-founder of Microsoft.
J. Paul Getty, billionaire oilman.
Amadeo Peter Giannini, multimillionaire founder of Bank of America.
Hyman Golden, multimillionaire cofounder of Snapple.
Barry Goldwater, U.S. senator and presidential candidate.
David Green, billionaire founder of Hobby Lobby.
Joyce C. Hall, founder of Hallmark.
Harold Hamm, billionaire oil wildcatter.
William Randolph Hearst, newspaper publisher.
Peter Jennings, news anchor.
Steve Jobs, co-founder of Apple Computers and Pixar Animation.
Dean Kamen, multimillionaire inventor of the Segway.
Ray Kroc, multimillionaire founder of McDonald’s.
Tommy Lasorda, baseball manager.
Ralph Lauren, billionaire fashion designer, founder of Polo.
Charles Lindbergh, aviator.
Jack London, bestselling novelist.
Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, Brazilian president.
Mary Lyon, founder of Mount Holyoke College (America’s first women’s college).
John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods.
Steve Madden, shoe designer.
John Major, British prime minister.
Herman Melville, novelist, Moby Dick.
Karl Menninger, psychiatrist.
Claude Monet, painter.
Dustin Moskovitz, multi-millionaire co-founder of Facebook.
Walter Nash, prime minister of New Zealand.
David Neeleman, founder of JetBlue airlines.
David Oreck, founder of The Oreck Corporation.
George Orwell (aka Eric Blair), author of Animal Farm and 1984.
Larry Page, billionaire founder of Google.
James A. Pike, Episcopal bishop.
Ron Popeil, multimillionaire founder of Ronco.
Leandro Rizzuto, billionaire founder of Conair.
John D. Rockefeller Sr., billionaire founder of Standard Oil.
Karl Rove, presidential advisor.
William Safire, columnist for the New York Times.
Colonel Harlan Sanders, founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC).
Vidal Sassoon, multimillionaire founder of Vidal Sassoon.
Richard Schulze, billionaire founder of Best Buy.
William Shakespeare, playwright, poet.
John Simplot, billionaire potato king.
Isaac Merrit Singer, sewing machine inventor.
Walter L. Smith, president of Florida A&M University.
Will Smith, Grammy-winning rapper, actor.
Alfred Taubman, billionaire chairman of Sotheby.
Jack Crawford Taylor, billionaire founder of Enterprise Rent-a-Car.
Dave Thomas, billionaire founder of Wendy’s.
Ted Turner, billionaire founder of CNN and TBS.
Mark Twain (Samuel Langhorne Clemens).
Cornelius Vanderbilt, railroad magnate.
Theodore Waitt, billionaire founder of Gateway Computers.
DeWitt Wallace, founder and publisher of Reader’s Digest.
Ty Warner, billionaire developer of Beanie Babies.
Sidney Weinberg, managing partner of Goldman Sachs.
Steve Wozniak, billionaire co-founder of Apple.
Wilbur Wright, inventor of the airplane.
Mark Zuckerberg, founder of Facebook, billionaire.

 

[Wade]

In all probability jeff, you may find that people who may not agree with your sentiments will be able to throw down a list of many successful people that did have a college diploma or degree but I feel as you do. That Somewhere, maybe in the 90's or so the benefits ...and the dynamics....of a degree diploma changed, generally speaking. I would say nowadays it's very hard to turn a $30k debt into a successful career in anything with a few exceptions like petroleum engineering. The liberal arts majors, god bless their caring hearts, are getting hurt.

 

[Jeff Davis]

In all probability jeff, you may find that people who may not agree with your sentiments will be able to throw down a list of many successful people that did have a college diploma or degree but I feel as you do. That Somewhere, maybe in the 90's or so the benefits ...and the dynamics....of a degree diploma changed, generally speaking. I would say nowadays it's very hard to turn a $30k debt into a successful career in anything with a few exceptions like petroleum engineering. The liberal arts majors, god bless their caring hearts, are getting hurt.

It just seems to me that we (humanity) have lost our focus. Our priorities are learned, rather than being comprised of those we naturally depend on and inherrently know as being advantagous. That's very dangerous.

The point of this thread is not a pissing match over whose list is longer. Not at all. I just wanted to point out the fact that it's people that make the difference and not what those people seek outside of themselves. Humanity is loosing it's ability to intuitively reflect and prosper as a result. This has always been the human edge.

 

[Charlie Prime]

Here's why. For a 700 years a "college degree" was mostly unrelated to a person's employment. Universities were just that, institutions that offered a universal education.

Trade guilds were society's institutions for providing employment training.

There is a huge difference between an education and a schooling. The vast majority of young people today are schooled, but not educated. A few small academies providing the ancient universal education do still exist. Most people have never heard of them because they don't have NCAA football teams, and only extremely wealthy children attend them.

When I was a hiring manager I enjoyed asking new college graduates why the Bachelor's Degree they just spent four years "earning" was called a Bachelor's Degree. I think in all that time only two of them knew.

Today's 13th, 14th, etc. grade schools are called "universities" but they are not, the same way people still call a door entrance a threshold even though they haven't "held threshed straw in" for a hundred years. The old name stuck, but today they are something completely different.

As usual, that which is advertised and sold is very different from what is in reality delivered.

Your daughter does need the credentials. That's how the system is structured.

 

[stonehart]

In all probability jeff, you may find that people who may not agree with your sentiments will be able to throw down a list of many successful people that did have a college diploma or degree but I feel as you do. That Somewhere, maybe in the 90's or so the benefits ...and the dynamics....of a degree diploma changed, generally speaking. I would say nowadays it's very hard to turn a $30k debt into a successful career in anything with a few exceptions like petroleum engineering. The liberal arts majors, god bless their caring hearts, are getting hurt.

My diploma hangs in a frame on the inside of the toilet door, I have not as yet put break glass in case of emergency on it but that is more or less all I think it is worth.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Here's why. For a 700 years a "college degree" was mostly unrelated to a person's employment. Universities were just that, institutions that offered a universal education.

Trade guilds were society's institutions for providing employment training.

There is a huge difference between an education and a schooling. The vast majority of young people today are schooled, but not educated. A few small academies providing the ancient universal education do still exist. Most people have never heard of them because they don't have NCAA football teams, and only extremely wealthy children attend them.

When I was a hiring manager I enjoyed asking new college graduates why the Bachelor's Degree they just spent four years "earning" was called a Bachelor's Degree. I think in all that time only two of them knew.

Today's 13th, 14th, etc. grade schools are called "universities" but they are not, the same way people still call a door entrance a threshold even though they haven't "held threshed straw in" for a hundred years. The old name stuck, but today they are something completely different.

As usual, that which is advertised and sold is very different from what is in reality delivered.

Your daughter does need the credentials. That's how the system is structured.

This is amazing information. If I am understanding you correctly, a proper universal education has become an ultra elite enterprise, and a schooling in the typical universities these days is nothing more than a vocational training business in which prospective customer's are lured via the social conditioning of politically correct acceptability. (read: you NEED and must have an education to survive) That's extremely limiting, if not downright evil IMO. Just turning out fodder for the machine like cookie cutters pressed to brainless doe.

What has happened to the legitimacy of this universal education? Why don't teachers demand that matters be restored to an effective, if not ethical, standard?

What is the format in terms of subject matter, and depth of subject matter within this universal education? Did such an education take as long, or longer, than the present state of academic affairs? I am truly fascinated by this universal and esoteric educational standard to which you refer.

edit: Ps. Without pretending and going to google for the answer, why do they call it a bachelor's degree, associate degree, etc? Your comment about those attending the classes and having the degrees but not knowing the meaning of the degree termonology reminds me of a time when I was discussing something with a student that had taken a class on probate court. I asked him what the term probate actually meant. He looked and me and just shrugged, stating that that's just the name they called it.

 

[TheMoon]

I scan read something the other day that stated my generation ( I was born 1985) was a generation of "dreamers". Our grand parents fought in wars and experienced hard times, the blitz, the depression, poor working conditions. (and excuse me as I'm paraphrasing) This lead to our parents in majority being shown the importance of a trade or a secure job. Rather than glitz or glamour. Off the back end of this my generation grew up being told you can be whatever you want be. Because growing up in the late 80s early 90s we had yuppies and an affluent situation real class mobility. The parents that had grew up in industries or a safe job in a bank having felt repressed doing the safe option installed in to the kids they could be whatever they wanted to be! Actors and popstars and the WAG( wife and girlfriend of a sports star) in the uk you only need to look at the degrees been taken in. The economy hasn't helped hammer that fact home that this Infact isn't true. So my generation is left with its hands open thinking it got a bum deal. And the world owes us a living when in reality we all live in the gutter only some of us take the time to look up at the stars.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I scan read something the other day that stated my generation ( I was born 1985) was a generation of "dreamers". Our grand parents fought in wars and experienced hard times, the blitz, the depression, poor working conditions. (and excuse me as I'm paraphrasing) This lead to our parents in majority being shown the importance of a trade or a secure job. Rather than glitz or glamour. Off the back end of this my generation grew up being told you can be whatever you want be. Because growing up in the late 80s early 90s we had yuppies and an affluent situation real class mobility. The parents that had grew up in industries or a safe job in a bank having felt repressed doing the safe option installed in to the kids they could be whatever they wanted to be! Actors and popstars and the WAG( wife and girlfriend of a sports star) in the uk you only need to look at the degrees been taken in. The economy hasn't helped hammer that fact home that this Infact isn't true. So my generation is left with its hands open thinking it got a bum deal. And the world owes us a living when in reality we all live in the gutter only some of us take the time to look up at the stars.

IMO, the only reason why your generation, or any other generation over the course of the last 30 years, are "dreamers" is because of the idiot box. (TV) Now that the computer/internet thing has become the burgeoning new TV of the future, it's as if the whole brain washing process has been given a new suit of legitimacy via the garb of a technology information spin. If anything, I see the media as an absolute tool of social controll. Now, they literally call it "reality TV" Whose reality precisely? Certainly not mine or anyone else I know personally. It's just absolute materialistic shallow acceptability trash for the masses. Teaching people not what to think, but ever so subtly as the media always does, training them how to think.

The truth is that it all seems more akin to a social grooming process than it does entertainment. People are just too stupid and naive to know how their own impressiveness serves to induct them into the magician's choice of social acceptability, and far more potentially, desirability. It's all just sales 101 and the people here in the USA eat it like cake all day long. Baaahhhaaaa go the little fat bo-people.

 

[Randall]

College Conspiracy Scam ( 2011 )

 

[stonehart]

IMO, the only reason why your generation, or any other generation over the course of the last 30 years, are "dreamers" is because of the idiot box. (TV) Now that the computer/internet thing has become the burgeoning new TV of the future, it's as if the whole brain washing process has been given a new suit of legitimacy via the garb of a technology information spin. If anything, I see the media as an absolute tool of social controll. Now, they literally call it "reality TV" Whose reality precisely? Certainly not mine or anyone else I know personally. It's just absolute materialistic shallow acceptability trash for the masses. Teaching people not what to think, but ever so subtly as the media always does, training them how to think.

The truth is that it all seems more akin to a social grooming process than it does entertainment. People are just too stupid and naive to know how their own impressiveness serves to induct them into the magician's choice of social acceptability, and far more potentially, desirability. It's all just sales 101 and the people here in the USA eat it like cake all day long. Baaahhhaaaa go the little fat bo-people.

The internet like TV has the power to be used as either a tool for education or mindless entertainment.
It is in the hands of the user to chose which it will be.

The sad thing is most people are so mindlessly addicted to the system as it is not to see this important fact.

 

[Randall]

The internet like TV has the power to be used as either a tool for education or mindless entertainment. It is in the hands of the user to chose which it will be. The sad thing is most people are so mindlessly addicted to the system as it is not to see this important fact.

Speaking of which, I just tried your Chicken on a Raft link ... I think I made it in to about 40 seconds and accidentally switch out of it. It reminds of this classic: ZOMBOCOM

 

[Jeff Davis]

The internet like TV has the power to be used as either a tool for education or mindless entertainment.
It is in the hands of the user to chose which it will be.

The sad thing is most people are so mindlessly addicted to the system as it is not to see this important fact.

I could not agree more. The internet can literally be a priceless education unto itself. A true liberty. Like most energetic processes however, the path offering up the least amount of resistance, tends to be the busiest. I think it's safe to say with respect to sentient reflective efficiency that a mirror offers up the very least in this case. Enter: Social Networking

Most people are not familiar with how a great deal of the ritual and customary practices in Catholicism are derived from the Baal religion or worship device. Who cares? Would you excuse me, I need to go post on facebook about this unique fart I ripped in the lunchroom at work. My goodness, who low can we go?

Did you state something about this fine country's state of social dependence? Stonehart, isn't that the exact opposite of social independence and real liberty? You bet it is my friend, and honestly I couldn't agree with you more concerning the mindlessly addicted run rampant populous in the waste deep social quagmire that is presently being cultivated and grown in this country. It makes me sick, but I found the cure before I was five years old. Music sweet music, as the man said. I want it to caress my very soul. Always works for me anyway.

 

[boomerang]

I didn't realize until recently that until roughly the early 1950's, elite universities in America were much more about class structure than intellectual ability. (it's called naivete). So many of the brightest minds in society were just as likely to attend Podunk U as Harvard, or perhaps have little schooling at all. Turning top tier universities into true meritocracies has been both good and bad. Good in that it creates a unique atmosphere for the exchange and advancement of ideas. Bad in that it may have had the effect of stratifying society in ways not heretofore seen.

Still, there are the kind of "spark plugs" such as populate JD's list, who build a better mold by breaking old ones. They are generally not mellow campers. But they do tend to get the best out of others and themselves, usually by being hard on others, and on themselves.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I didn't realize until recently that until roughly the early 1950's, elite universities in America were much more about class structure than intellectual ability. (it's called naivete). So many of the brightest minds in society were just as likely to attend Podunk U as Harvard, or perhaps have little schooling at all. Turning top tier universities into true meritocracies has been both good and bad. Good in that it creates a unique atmosphere for the exchange and advancement of ideas. Bad in that it may have had the effect of stratifying society in ways not heretofore seen.

Still, there are the kind of "spark plugs" such as populate JD's list, who build a better mold by breaking old ones. They are generally not mellow campers. But they do tend to get the best out of others and themselves, usually by being hard on others, and on themselves.

Brilliant as always. No, I am not blowing sunshine where I shouldn't. I just emboldened the statement above to both underline it's pertinent truth, as well as express that it's simply the quality labeled as "driven". It's the same instinct that gets the pack through the bleakest of winters. Survival. Something that schools just can't teach. As an employer of over 30 years now, I can assure you that human beings either inherently possess this quality, or they don't. This type is without question the most valuable and productive of all with respect to dependability and an almost guaranteed effort to do one's best at all cost. Here's the thing though, the more you have of this type of individual, the more work you have on your hands in terms of their management. The more money they cost because they almost always command top pay as they won't settle for less and really, why should they when they are working circles around most other personality types? The problem is that as you state, there is an absolute stratifying (logically so, not presumptively) effect due to a saturation level of societal programming of the need for educational contamination of the truly creative consciousness pool. People need to get back to just living according to their inherent qualities in life. What a waste it is when we attempt to push everyone through the same conformational flood gates. Talent? What's that?

 

[Charlie Prime]

...why do they call it a bachelor's degree,

A laurel wreath is an ancient symbol of achievement.

Apollo wore one on his head. In Rome they were symbols of martial victory. In the Bible, they represent prosperity, fame, and sometimes the resurection.

Laurus nobilis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "Bachelor's Degree" comes from the French word baccalauréat which comes from the Latin baca (berry) laurus (laurel) that got Anglicized to Bachelor.

 

[Charlie Prime]

If I am understanding you correctly, a proper universal education has become an ultra elite enterprise, and a schooling in the typical universities these days is nothing more than a vocational training business in which prospective customer's are lured via the social conditioning of politically correct acceptability....Just turning out fodder for the machine like cookie cutters pressed to brainless doe.

Ha! You summarized it better than I ever could have.

I first heard about this "Universal Education" four years ago on a podcast. I started researching it and was shocked to discover this educational segregation exists.

How to find it: Go to this list of the richest families in the world: The Top 10 Richest Families in the World - TheRichest

Identifiy their children. Track down which private schools their children attended. Compare the curriculum of those schools to your local schools.

The pattern you will notice is that, regardless of whether they are Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, or Muslim (fronts), they all basically teach something called the "Seven Liberal Arts".

The word "liberal" has been Orwellian-flipped for the masses. People think it means "authoritarian collectivist", when in fact it means the exact opposite.

Same with "liberal arts". People think it means "Useless B.S. like basket-weaving and poetry that lefty hippie kids study at college on Daddy's dime" when it fact is an awesome, ancient weapon or tool, depending on how it is used.

Liberal arts - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can't describe it better because I'm a newbie to it and still trying to really get a handle on it.

If you're really interested, listen to this long-azz interview with Gene Odening that got me going on it.

http://flowthego.com/media/GMPC049-Gene-Odening-ftg96kps.mp3

 

[Wade]

"Same with "liberal arts". People think it means "Useless B.S. like basket-weaving and poetry that lefty hippie kids study at college on Daddy's dime" when it fact is an awesome, ancient weapon or tool, depending on how it is used."

I am( was) one of them. but in my defense it seems whenever I asked liberal art majors on their curriculum it was heavy on the humanities. hence my post above.

 

[Charlie Prime]

I have always wondered why so many of the greatest minds of all time, the inventors and business moguls that have most served to shape our lives today, were in many case never educated

You might find this book interesting. It's about how the success is often dependent on more than just ability.

Outliers: The Story of Success: Malcolm Gladwell: 9780316017930: Amazon.com: Books

Maybe some nice person will give it to you for Christmas.

 

[Charlie Prime]

I am( was) one of them.

Me too. I attended what was supposed to be a world-class institution, and only recently figured out thirty years later that I was cheated. I'm kinda pissed off about it!

My daughter attended Oxford for a year and saw the segregation between the different "colleges". It's subtle, but exists.

 

[boomerang]

Ha!

Track down which private schools their children attended. Compare the curriculum of those schools to your local schools.

Are you talking about high profile "elite" universities vs lower profile, truly "elite" institutions for a small group of insiders? Or are we talking prep schools ? I'm a little lost here. Where would you say the truly elite school their offspring?