• NEW! LOWEST RATES EVER -- SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY THE VERY BEST PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+, eight years young! For a low subscription fee, you can download the ad-free version of The Paracast and the exclusive, member-only, After The Paracast bonus podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, the continuation of interviews that began on the main episode of The Paracast. We also offer lifetime memberships! Flash! Take advantage of our lowest rates ever! Act now! It's easier than ever to susbcribe! You can sign up right here!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!

Consciousness and the Paranormal

Free episodes:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Do you actually need me to explain this to you, or are you just trying to bait me into yet another pointless argument?

I am heartened that you seem to understand that what you engage in is 'pointless argument'. My hope is that if you continue to stay on this thread - and you do seem to like it (though we had to start this thread because you made it clear that you did not approve of the topics being introduced on the other thread - "your" thread) - that you will engage more fully with substantial posts fully fleshing out what you think and why, and not leave it up to guesswork. I think that's fair.
 
Radio Misterioso | In-depth conversations on the paranormal alternating with weird music. Live on Sundays 8-10 PM PST @ killradio.org
RPJ | Radio Misterioso

Early in the Radio Misterioso interview (about 13:00-13:15 minutes) with Red Pill Junkie,

Greg Bishop discusses the idea that in coverage of the paranormal from Mexico, there are "no filters" because they don't get too bogged down in something - it's OK to say "well this is interesting and this is interesting" . . . and that the subject is taken more seriously down there.

Has anyone read any of this literature? Greg mentions Scott Corrales and Red Pill Junkie mentions another author Pedro Ferriz Santacruz as the Father of Mexican Ufology.

And Greg's mentioned this blog in a previous episode:
Inexplicata-The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

as well as Rosales' Humanoid Report . . .

I'm curious now because I've really not thought about searching out Psi research in other countries . . .
 
Radio Misterioso | In-depth conversations on the paranormal alternating with weird music. Live on Sundays 8-10 PM PST @ killradio.org
RPJ | Radio Misterioso

Early in the Radio Misterioso interview (about 13:00-13:15 minutes) with Red Pill Junkie,

Greg Bishop discusses the idea that in coverage of the paranormal from Mexico, there are "no filters" because they don't get too bogged down in something - it's OK to say "well this is interesting and this is interesting" . . . and that the subject is taken more seriously down there.

Has anyone read any of this literature? Greg mentions Scott Corrales and Red Pill Junkie mentions another author Pedro Ferriz Santacruz as the Father of Mexican Ufology.

And Greg's mentioned this blog in a previous episode:
Inexplicata-The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

as well as Rosales' Humanoid Report . . .

I'm curious now because I've really not thought about searching out Psi research in other countries . . .

Oh, boy - I am going to be busy this weekend, I can see! All looks intriguing, Steve. Many thanks.
 
Oh, boy - I am going to be busy this weekend, I can see! All looks intriguing, Steve. Many thanks.

You're welcome - I understand some other cultures are matter of fact about the paranormal - from another podcast (I will track it down) a report was given that in China conversation about UFOS was no big deal - people could sit down at the table and discuss UFOs and if others at the table weren't interested they could express that, but it was just a disinterest, not a discounting of those who were interested in UFOs - it wasn't necessarily that they didn't believe, they just weren't interested and so those who were could freely talk about it - I don't know if it's that way generally in China or if it's fair to say we are more "polarized" in the US . . . but that kind of behavior around these here parts seems downright paranormal! ;-)
 
Anybody else use duckduckgo.com search engine to avoid "filter bubbling"? If nothing else, I do seem to get different results than Google - which tends to turn up Wikipedia first and then mostly the same things over and over .
 
I'm perfectly willing to accept that strange things happen, including psychic phenomena. I don't need a statistical evaluation. IMO we're getting sidetracked by the statistical game and would like to see more focus on identifying the causal factors. The assumption is that psychic phenomena are an innate human ability. What if that's not the case?
I agree, i just wanted to point out that the stats may be convincing to statisticians, but they don't seem to hold weight in any significant way anywhere else. What we've been told about the abandonment of the RV military attempts by T & P is that it was just too inconsistent. This brings us back to the notion that it is random in terms of events and even people supposedly sensitive and able to consistently produce psi results.

But let's not digress on this point - i think the issue of whether or not we can understand psi phenomenon as causative in the first place is a good one to address. I just finished listening to a great podcast with Red Pill Junkie on Radio Misterioso with Greg Bishop whose conversation has a lot of direct bearing on this conversation. In fact there were so many aha moments about points discussed here in the thread (and often in my brain) i had my jaw drop numerous times.

at the time i was stuck in 2.5 hour traffic because someone decided to drive into oncoming traffic on our biggest highway after attempting to murder someone. i find the only solution in these situations is to listen to the roller-coaster of podcast emotion that is This American Life or really, really good paranormal material. today i had the great fortune of listening to both as my drive got magnified four fold today, which wasn't as bad as the 3.5 hours snowstorm traffic of two days ago. look at me going on about stats.

Ok, on point: the significant discussion piece was that their trajectory was not about looking for causal factors or a positive theory of psi phenomenon but the expression of reality as an associative universe. Both Bishop and RPJ take notes from the closing moments of Messengers of Deception by Vallee where synchronicities abound and reality is formed by association, in parallel, in tandem, spooky action at a distance if you like.

and they went on of course to talk about the role of the trickster, like how in ouija board scenarios it starts off all interesting, with sending out dates, and information to check their identity and then it ends in some type of evil chaos - yes that was certainly my tricksterish ouija event. from here they started, of course, to talk about consciousness and how where there rocks there will be people walking soon for we are just made of rock, and before something put us together we were rock, a consciousness waiting to happen, an object waiting to unfold, the process of order looking for disorder, for perfection to know imperfection - it was a scintillating discussion. there's lots of great material for us to chew on here. i can see that stephen has already posted about the episode with the link - go figure.
 
I'm not actually making assumptions as much as passing along a case where it was reported that a mystical third party was believed to have been involved. So why not consider that as a possibility for further investigation?

Yes. Fascinating. I find it more interesting than statistical analysis any day.

Perhaps. Or perhaps there actually was some third party influence capable of creating situations that manifest themselves in a way that leads us to believe what we want to believe, or what they want us to believe. Perhaps that's why when we attempt to isolate the phenomena in a manner that can be studied unambiguously, it suddenly becomes much harder to get any definitive results.

Fascinating . . . (who) what do you think the third party might be?
 
hmm…i'm starting to wonder if this is the time to bring up the group i formed with an artist friend interested in madness and association back in my university days? we called ourselves The Coltextualishnishts and our primary tenant was that everything in nature was naturally conscious - all living and non living natural forms i.e. plants, rocks, wind etc. were all conscious. all original materials converted for human purposes such as wood, stone, metal etc. were all living, in what we called a state of Nefandism, where they were being contorted against their nature hence the reason for things like hauntings, evil emotions, negativity and poltergeists. i could go on...oh, those were the days /=.Y.=\
 
I agree, i just wanted to point out that the stats may be convincing to statisticians, but they don't seem to hold weight in any significant way anywhere else. What we've been told about the abandonment of the RV military attempts by T & P is that it was just too inconsistent. This brings us back to the notion that it is random in terms of events and even people supposedly sensitive and able to consistently produce psi results.

What we've been told about the abandonment of the RV military attempts by T & P is that it was just too inconsistent.

Except here:

Entangled Minds: My comments on Alcock's comments on Bem's precognition article

Radin says:

Did supposed flaws adequately account for the results of remote viewing studies? No. Were those study designs abandoned? No. Did skeptics like Ray Hyman, who reviewed a small subset of the SRI/SAIC remote viewing studies for the CIA, conclude that the studies were flawed? No. Did this research paradigm, which was an updated version of picture-drawing techniques developed a half-century earlier, disappear? No.

Targ and Puthoff, and later Ed May and colleagues, continued not only to conduct substantial research on remote viewing, but it proved to be so useful for gathering information in a unique way that it was ultimately used for thousands of operational missions by the DoD. Some portions of the history of the formerly secret Stargate program (and other projects with different code names) is in the public domain now, so it is not necessary to go into that here. Suffice it to say that those research programs were very carefully monitored by skeptical scientific oversight committees who continued to recommend funding for over two decades (as long as the program remained secret).
 
. . .

Ok, on point: the significant discussion piece was that their trajectory was not about looking for causal factors or a positive theory of psi phenomenon but the expression of reality as an associative universe. Both Bishop and RPJ take notes from the closing moments of Messengers of Deception by Vallee where synchronicities abound and reality is formed by association, in parallel, in tandem, spooky action at a distance if you like.

Both Bishop and RPJ take notes from the closing moments of Messengers of Deception by Vallee where synchronicities abound and reality is formed by association, in parallel, in tandem, spooky action at a distance if you like.

I just listened to the part where they are discussing Vallee's book: Messengers of Deception

RPJ discusses the idea of living in an associative type of universe, not a "causitive" one (where cause precedes effect)

RPJ . . . but in an associative universe you know there are no constraints in time and space which could link several meaningful you know events, consciousness is (RPJ searches for words)

GB: consciousness is the link

RPJ: exactly

then RPJ discusses how nobody knew anything about computers when Vallee's book came out but now it made sense

RPJ . . . now in 2010 (when RPJ read this book) now that i have the advantage of living in the world with a world wide web, it made perfect sense

ok, so we live in a kind of internet-type of universe where synchronicities are like these html hyperlinks between a webpage and another webpage and you click on a hyperlink and go from one site to the other, in that type of universe synchronicities, pre-cognition and remote viewing do not violate the laws of physics

GB: its normal in that case

so this might be how some of these phenomena become a mainstream part of science, by a paradigm shift - as @Constance indicates . . .
 
And now for something different.....

Anybody else use duckduckgo.com search engine to avoid "filter bubbling"? If nothing else, I do seem to get different results than Google - which tends to turn up Wikipedia first and then mostly the same things over and over .

Thank you for this and reminds me that I have been meaning to share this little bit from my 'intuitive' astrologer buddy - concerning Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia. When you read the below keep in mind it is excerpted from an astrologer's assessment -

"Jimmy Wales - no, no, before you say this guy is more evil than Bill Gates ever was, you have to give him a chance. He’s a small town boy who got dazzled by the bright lights and doesn’t know how far out of his league he’s gotten.

"Yes he’s an atheist and a libertarian, a fan of Ayn Rand who hates astrology and believes he’s 'rational', but give him a break. Huntsville, Alabama, his home town, was just another small place until the military came in 1941. Missile development started in 1950. NASA arrived in 1960. James came along in 1966. Huntsville is now a tech-savvy engineering town with a metropolitan population over 400,000.

"The city as a whole is still too new to have diversified very much from its technological base. My [...] records, which go back 20 years and comprise some 52,000 transactions, suggest the city, by comparison to others of its size, remains intellectually undeveloped. Huntsville’s own Wiki page is much overdeveloped. (There are a number of bicycle routes in the city. As in every city in the US.)

"So let’s give James Wales, now residing in London with his third wife, the astrology reading he’s too provincial to give himself. Astrologers, bless our fake souls, work cheap. An hour spent with one would be entertainment. Jimmy could score points telling his friends about it. Tell everyone, I knew they were phony. I went to one and he proved it. He’d be the talk of London for a week. Jimbo does astro. And survives! Heck. The London astrology community might never recover. He could be striking a blow for SCIENCE!

[...]

"Quantifying knowledge, objectifying it, turning it into a solid object, is what encyclopedias do. The knowledge of the world in a fine set of 30 hardcover volumes, over 40,000 in-depth articles, a total of 18,251 pages, for only $695.00 USD, plus shipping. Wales, who seems to have been de facto home schooled until the 8th grade, poured over a set. [...] Wales is instinctive and [...] considers hi knowledge to be his personal possession. While Wales may have lost control of Wiki, Mars-Jupiter conjunct in Cancer in the 3rd is the definition of an edit war. Which have plagued Wiki from the start and are now in danger of destroying it. Wiki is Wales. Wales is Wiki. It is in his chart.

"When Wales looks at his encyclopedia, he judges, or values, the wrong things for the wrong reasons, but Jupiter in Cancer encourages him to continue doing exactly that.

"Instead of being the neutral purveyor of knowledge, Wiki has instead become a defender of what it believes to be absolute right and the enemy of what it holds to be absolute wrong. This is the secret to all encyclopedias, but Wiki has done a particularly bad job of it, as they have given the game away. The Encyclopedia Britannica is just as hostile to astrology as Wiki, but far fewer people refer to it.

"Judgement of this sort is in conflict with the second of Wiki’s 'Five Pillars: Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view: We strive for articles that document and explain the major points of view, giving due weight with respect to their prominence in an impartial tone. We avoid advocacy and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as 'the truth' or 'the best view'. '
"WHY is Wiki itself not aware of this? Look again at the chart of its founder, Jimmy Wales. Wales keeps his feelings and emotions to himself. It might never have occurred to him that this is unusual, though it perhaps annoys him that others may be excessively emotional at times. Without him ever quite understanding why. There is a sense of 'I am smarter than you think I am,' 'I don’t talk about these things,' that I don’t have to, that knowledge is a fixed thing, that authorities are to be taken at their word and not questioned, not challenged, that change should be avoided if at all possible and that if or when new information, new ideas are necessary, he, Wales, will know instinctively how to bring it about.

"Wiki in fact strives for perfect articles, not because it wants perfection per se, which would be Virgo, but because it wants and values permanence, which is fixed Taurus. Among the criteria, a featured article, Wiki’s very best work, will be 'Well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by in-line citations where appropriate. . .'

" 'Stable: it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day . . .'

"These rules are, of course, absurd. Knowledge is like sunlight, it is dynamic, it is ever changing, it is never the same from moment to moment. While printed ink-on-paper has obvious limitations, it is an encyclopedic flaw to have only one article on any given subject. Think carefully about this. When I come to you every week with these stories, you know that I am but one of many. When I cite books for reference, I am doing so in the hopes that you will build a library of books, partly as a ready reference, but primarily that you might learn, as I have learned, to consult Alan Leo on Tuesday, Alan Oken on Wednesday, Carter and Robson on weekends, etc. There is no one right author.

"An encyclopedia that has only one article on, say, astrology, then, even if the article was well-done, it would still be just one article. It would be inferior to the many competing resources which I have at my fingertips. Precisely because no one article can be definitive, all individual articles are inherently misleading. All 4,415,852 English language Wikis.

"The underlying reason for ceaseless edit wars is that many articles need to be more than one. This is not a matter of differing points of view. Only articles built from the ground up, as fully-formed expressions of their authors, can be definitive, but even then, only on their own (absolute) terms. Which is the definition of a search engine. Which is to say that Wiki, by its very existence, cheapened the web. The variety of expression that had been building on-line has now largely disappeared, replaced by Wiki’s uniform error.

"This is the underlying problem of treating knowledge as a commodity, rather than as living entities. A true on-line encyclopedia would have multiple articles on many subjects. Authors would have the freedom to write as they please, to be influenced by some and not others. Authors could pick and choose from existing articles, adding their own experience and insights as they saw fit. The resulting enterprise would be a vast creative endeavor, rather than the thankless straight-jacket that Wiki has become. Readers would have the free will to pick the best according to their own criteria. EVENTUALLY winners and losers would emerge, but they would emerge in context. Just as the “greatest hits of the ’60’s, ’70’s and ’80’s” emerged. Not because record execs said this or that group was good, but because the people were given the right to choose for themselves. It is this freedom which Wiki lacks.

"I expect Wiki will counter, that “scientific standards must be upheld,” but upheld by who and for what reason, exactly? Here is a partial list of subjects Wiki has tagged as pseudo: Examples of pseudoscience concepts, proposed as scientific when they are not scientific, include: acupuncture, alchemy, ancient astronauts, applied kinesiology, astrology, Ayurvedic medicine, biorhythms, cellular memory, cold fusion, craniometry, creation science, Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard’s engram theory, enneagrams, eugenics, extrasensory perception (ESP), facilitated communication, graphology, homeopathy, intelligent design, iridology, kundalini, Lysenkoism, metoposcopy, N-rays, naturopathy, orgone energy, paranormal plant perception, phrenology, physiognomy, qi, New Age psycho-therapies (e.g., rebirthing therapy), reflexology, remote viewing, neurolinguistic programming (NLP), reiki, Rolfing, therapeutic touch, and the revised history of the solar system proposed by Immanuel Velikovsky.

"The full list includes the entire Chinese culture.

"When we gave Enlightenment Science the right to rule over us, we expected they would be fair and comprehensive. Instead, Science, especially as led by Wiki, is increasingly a polarizing agent. We must believe in evolution, we must not believe in creationism, we must not only believe in global warming, we must believe that mankind is at fault and that we are all going to die. The evolution/creationist debate is exactly identical to the number of angels that can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin. It is of no worth to anyone, while global warming, lacking astro-meteorology for context, is a naked power grab.

"If science, like the Church before it, cannot govern us effectively, if it condemns entire cultures, as the Church condemned Islam and science has condemned China, we must replace it. Sanity, not to mention world peace, demands it.

"Aristotle is the first choice, but Aristotelian physics is but a subset of astrology. Astrology, functioning as a language, knows all and describes all. Impartially. It gives the observer the tools to judge for himself. It empowers the masses. It has traditionally been condemned for this reason alone. All other excuses are phony. [...] Astrology will replace “science” before the middle of this century. The current astrological revival, which has only the 12th Century Translators as a precedent, has assured it. It was those translators who gave us the Renaissance. The Greeks are just that powerful.

"I have done the charts of a number of 'savants', men (all of them, I think) who claimed to be intelligent. Without exception, they were intelligent not because of static planets-in-the-third (or 9th) house, but because of stressful aspects, squares or oppositions, that made their world inherently un- stable, thus requiring them to ceaselessly adapt to it. Jimmy Wales lacks these aspects. To Jimmy Wales, knowledge is something that can be harvested, processed, put in cans and sold in a supermarket. He and the staff he has assembled fundamentally misunderstand the very nature of knowledge. A few years ago I heard that Google was considering buying Wiki. Would have made Wales rich many times over, but as Wiki has devolved over time, I doubt any sensible person wants anything to do with it." - David Roell
LINK: Astrology Books at The Astrology Center of America
 
Last edited:
Fascinating . . . (who) what do you think the third party might be?

Assuming there actually is a third party being ( entity or whatever ), there seem to be only two possibilities:

1. Non-alien
2. Alien


Both of the above could include humans as possible candidates. In either case, the candidates would seem to require the ability to clandestinely influence the thoughts of humans. This can be done with psychology and/or technology. Perhaps it can also be done via the innate psychic abilities of the third party. I don't know. But all these factors that are rarely considered. The usual assumption is that psychic phenomena associated with humans is also directly caused by innate human ability. However this may not be the case.

It may be the case that certain psychic subjects are unwitting participants in a scenario orchestrated by parties whose true identity and role are unknown to the participant. Known examples include the MK-Ultra experiments, and technology such as ultrasonic projectors and EM generators. So a careful plan to convince someone that they have psychic abilities could conceivably be carried out quite convincingly. Perhaps the experimenters themselves are even part of the setup. Given the lack of sufficient verifiable evidence, who really knows for sure?
 
Last edited:
there's a lot here - I would say to hold judgement on Hansen until you can read his book - was there something specific I said that leads to this or just a general sense? Was it the transcript from a radio interview I posted above that has Hansen answered the reality/ontological status of the trickster - ? I do think Hansen's theory is more subtle than the meme the Trickster has become and applies more narrowly - I think, in terms of knowledge, he doesn't necessarily say what we can know but rather he looks at what happens on the borders of what we do know (at any given time) so that may be why Radin made the comments he did - remember too Radin was responding to a critique by Hansen. But I don't see Hansen as anti-science, I believe he did research himself and he said of Radin's work that he thinks it is very important. He was more speaking of how it would be dealt with by society as a liminal subject.

Good suggestion, Steve -- to 'hold judgment' on Hansen's book and theory of the trickster until I have time to read the book. I'm sure the book provides a wealth of information contextualizing the trickster concept that is useful in a number of fields. My comment about our tendencies toward reification of that which we don't fully understand was in response to a predictive statement you quoted from Hansen, but the reification problem involved in discussion of 'the trickster' goes far beyond Hansen. I think it extends to 'the paranormal' as well, which seems to have become an enormous umbrella term for a wide range of human experiences that might not share anything in common other than our inability to account for them in objectively defined, prosaic terms.

That problematic tendency toward reification has been amplified by the widespread pop culture usage of the term 'meme', which contributes to the notion that what we think is real is as 'real' as that which we judge (on relatively firm foundations) to be real.

You also wrote re Hansen: "I think, in terms of knowledge, he doesn't necessarily say what we can know but rather he looks at what happens on the borders of what we do know (at any given time)."

In a world like ours with a young science, we spend a lot of time at the borders of what is comprehensible. After 100 years of quantum science, we are still unclear about the general relationship between quantum reality and classical reality. Jung learned a great deal about quantum science from Pauli, but that took place decades after he began to develop his idea of 'archetypes' as orientations to life evolved and maintained in the human collective unconscious. We might say that Jung was prescient in recognizing a trickster-like situation presented to classical physics. Perhaps even prescient concerning the developments of chaos theory and systems theory.

You've cited in another post of today the exchanges and developments of insight into the mind-matter relationship achieved over a decades-long friendship by Jung and Wolfgang Pauli. Harald Atmanspacher and a coauthor have a forthcoming book entitled The Pauli-Jung Conjecture: And Its Impact Today (due out on March 1) that will likely be the most insightful of the half-dozen books already devoted to Jung and Pauli's friendship and exchanges of ideas about the nature of reality. The reason why Atmanspacher et al's book will likely be the best source to consult is because Atmanspacher is a major philosopher of science who is involved with others (quantum physicists and other philosophers of science) in pursuing the relationship of consciousness and physical reality.


Most helpful for discussion here, I hope, is a downloadable paper by Atmanspacher that presents the core of the Pauli-Jung conjecture in the context of similar developments in philosophy and science concerning the mind-matter relationship and the issue of causality.

http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/dualaspect.pdf
 
Last edited:
Assuming there actually is a third party being ( entity or whatever ), there seem to be only two possibilities:

1. Non-alien
2. Alien


Both of the above could include humans as possible candidates. In either case, the candidates would seem to require the ability to clandestinely influence the thoughts of humans. This can be done with psychology and/or technology. Perhaps it can also be done via the innate psychic abilities of the third party. I don't know. But all these factors that are rarely considered. The usual assumption is that psychic phenomena associated with humans is also directly caused by innate human ability. However this may not be the case.

It may be the case that certain psychic subjects are unwitting participants in a scenario orchestrated by parties whose true identity and role are unknown to the participant. Known examples include the MK-Ultra experiments, and technology such as ultrasonic projectors and EM generators. So a careful plan to convince someone that they have psychic abilities could conceivably be carried out quite convincingly. Perhaps the experimenters themselves are even part of the setup. Given the lack of sufficient verifiable evidence, who really knows for sure?

The 5,000 year history of psychic phenomena argues against the possible validity of this kind of explanation.
 
Both Bishop and RPJ take notes from the closing moments of Messengers of Deception by Vallee where synchronicities abound and reality is formed by association, in parallel, in tandem, spooky action at a distance if you like.

I just listened to the part where they are discussing Vallee's book: Messengers of Deception

RPJ discusses the idea of living in an associative type of universe, not a "causitive" one (where cause precedes effect)

RPJ . . . but in an associative universe you know there are no constraints in time and space which could link several meaningful you know events, consciousness is (RPJ searches for words)

GB: consciousness is the link

RPJ: exactly

then RPJ discusses how nobody knew anything about computers when Vallee's book came out but now it made sense

RPJ . . . now in 2010 (when RPJ read this book) now that i have the advantage of living in the world with a world wide web, it made perfect sense

ok, so we live in a kind of internet-type of universe where synchronicities are like these html hyperlinks between a webpage and another webpage and you click on a hyperlink and go from one site to the other, in that type of universe synchronicities, pre-cognition and remote viewing do not violate the laws of physics

GB: its normal in that case

so this might be how some of these phenomena become a mainstream part of science, by a paradigm shift - as @Constance indicates . . .

I doubt it. The paradigm shift I referred to is in its beginning stages, Burnt State, and involves many deepening developments in physics and other disciplines. Did the 'associative' rather than 'causitive' universe proposed by the people you quoted come with any further details, including references to scientific theories or theorists? Also, what connections did the radio conversants make between consciousness and the internet?
 
I doubt it. The paradigm shift I referred to is in its beginning stages, Burnt State, and involves many deepening developments in physics and other disciplines. Did the 'associative' rather than 'causitive' universe proposed by the people you quoted come with any further details, including references to scientific theories or theorists? Also, what connections did the radio conversants make between consciousness and the internet?

This was my post - I quoted the first paragraph from Burnt State, then transcribed Greg Bishop and Red Pill Junkie from the latest edition of Radio Misterioso

Radio Misterioso | In-depth conversations on the paranormal alternating with weird music. Live on Sundays 8-10 PM PST @ killradio.org

no theories and no definitions of "associative" provided (except contextual) and no connections between consciousness and the internet -

I was too tired at the time to spell this out, so just posted what I had as Burnt State had listened to the episode; let me see if I can expand it a little now: Vallee wrote this book in the 70s before computers were an everyday thing, Red Pill Junkie made the comment that no one understood the book then but now that we live in this internet world (he says) it makes sense, (his use of the phrase "it does not violate the laws of physics" is telling - because he doesn't reference any theories, I got more the the sense that this was kind of a popular understanding or analogy running like this: because my computer runs this way and everybody is talking about things in terms of computers, then I can get how the universe would be this way) . . . now, I don't know how literally he believes all this (and there was a language issue, English is not RPJ's native tongue - so my thought is how, like in the industrial revolution we had a mechanical universe, then we had a computational universe and now we have this "associative" universe analogized to the web . . . so with QM (and I've not had time to catch up on your links) with this shift in science you are discussing, if it comes down to the popular mindset as the examples I just gave . . . I am trying to see how in the future we might live in a universe where some Psi phenomena are mainstream, where we would have a hard time imagining it could have ever been otherwise.
 
. . . but the reification problem involved in discussion of 'the trickster' goes far beyond Hansen. I think it extends to 'the paranormal' as well, which seems to have become an enormous umbrella term for a wide range of human experiences that might not share anything in common other than our inability to account for them in objectively defined, prosaic terms.

. . .

In a world like ours with a young science, we spend a lot of time at the borders of what is comprehensible. After 100 years of quantum science, we are still unclear about the general relationship between quantum reality and classical reality. Jung learned a great deal about quantum science from Pauli, but that took place decades after he began to develop his idea of 'archetypes' as orientations to life evolved and maintained in the human collective unconscious. We might say that Jung was prescient in recognizing a trickster-like situation presented to classical physics. Perhaps even prescient concerning the developments of chaos theory and systems theory.

You've cited in another post of today the exchanges and developments of insight into the mind-matter relationship achieved over a decades-long friendship by Jung and Wolfgang Pauli. Harald Atmanspacher and a coauthor have a forthcoming book entitled The Pauli-Jung Conjecture: And Its Impact Today (due out on March 1) that will likely be the most insightful of the half-dozen books already devoted to Jung and Pauli's friendship and exchanges of ideas about the nature of reality. The reason why Atmanspacher et al's book will likely be the best source to consult is because Atmanspacher is a major philosopher of science who is involved with others (quantum physicists and other philosophers of science) in pursuing the relationship of consciousness and physical reality.


Most helpful for discussion here, I hope, is a downloadable paper by Atmanspacher that presents the core of the Pauli-Jung conjecture in the context of similar developments in philosophy and science concerning the mind-matter relationship and the issue of causality.

http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/dualaspect.pdf

. . . but the reification problem involved in discussion of 'the trickster' goes far beyond Hansen. I think it extends to 'the paranormal' as well, which seems to have become an enormous umbrella term for a wide range of human experiences that might not share anything in common other than our inability to account for them in objectively defined, prosaic terms.

This is something I've been struggling with, both this umbrella nature of the term paranormal and much of the language used around it which is only defined in terms of something else (super-natural for example) - and that's a good question, a deep one as to whether these things do share anything else . . . so far I've only been tangled up in trying to think about it . . .

thanks for the link!
 
. . .

I have the impression that the application of the 'the' {as in 'the trickster'} is part of the problem, arising out of the generalizing and reifying tendencies embedded in our language. The same thing occurs in references to "the paranormal." The more we reify 'the paranormal' as a potential 'thing-in- itself' {indeed as a possible region of being entirely separate from our own}, the less we are likely and able to think through the nature and meaning of the empirical evidence presented in para-normal experiences and capacities that take place in the local world we live in (which, significantly, we generally assume to be objectively definable and already understood).
. . . .

I have the impression that the application of the 'the' {as in 'the trickster'} is part of the problem, arising out of the generalizing and reifying tendencies embedded in our language. The same thing occurs in references to "the paranormal." The more we reify 'the paranormal' as a potential 'thing-in- itself' {indeed as a possible region of being entirely separate from our own}, the less we are likely and able to think through the nature and meaning of the empirical evidence presented in para-normal experiences and capacities that take place in the local world we live in (which, significantly, we generally assume to be objectively definable and already understood).

so is this part of the problem of a broader acceptance of that empirical evidence? because we skip over what has been labelled (and so filed away) as paranormal? I look at how skeptics use language, Hyman's response to Utts for example and either the vocabulary is just different or the language is more or less consciously being used rhetorically by Hyman . . . . and can you expand generally on the ideas in this paragraph? especially the reifying tendencies embedded in our language (English or language generally?)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Over 30 pages now. You have to see it to believe it.

I've yet to encounter any credible evidence that any 'real' paranormal contact with functional information has ever transpired.

How about the mediumship research by Gary Schwartz and Julie Beischel?

In several triple-blind studies, where the "psychic mediums" only hear a first name from a proxy sitter over the phone, these "mediums" produce information that's accurate enough that 75 to 80% of the actual sitters choose (or give a higher rating to) the correct reading from a set of two readings (= 50% chance) where age and gender, skin and hair color of the deceased are (roughly) the same.

Or what about the part of a documentary I discussed here?

IMO, that could count as credible evidence at least. But of course, not as proof.
 
Last edited:
In several triple-blind studies, where the "psychic mediums" only hear a first name from a proxy sitter over the phone, these "mediums" produce information that's accurate enough that 75 to 80% of the actual sitters choose (or give a higher rating to) the correct reading from a set of two readings (= 50% chance) where age and gender, skin and hair color of the deceased are (roughly) the same.
Leap of Faith clip


How many black haired, brownish skinned, middle eastern Muslim women
are going to have the name "Frank" ?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top