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Consciousness and the Paranormal

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I hope to hear more from Tyger about the possible motivations of occult societies in keeping information private within their memberships. I would guess that those motivations have had something to do with threats to the members of those groups from people who opposed their interests and activities.

'Taboos', ubiquitous in more primitive societies, suggest that the motivation is to maintain a distance between oneself and the unknown, especially where the unknown has been characterized as dangerous, frightening, overwhelming. Various practical reasons would exist, of course, for individuals or select groups to propagate such representations and characterizations of the 'unknown' and their own power to protect the larger social group from these unknown forces if they obeyed, paid tribute to, or otherwise cow-towed to those claiming protective power to control those forces.

The collective unconscious no doubt carries much of that history in an inchoate fashion but still capable of inspiring fear of the unknown in people of our time. That could account for a range of contemporary behaviors including the extreme resistance to psi expressed by both theists and athesists active in skeptical organizations, and indeed among some scientists.

The fact that the trickster figure in many different historical settings has often been seen as a jokester or clown suggests that people in those societies have found a way to manage their fears of the unknown by laughing at the liminal and paranormal.

My comment about not talking about the occult was more to do with an intrinsic quality of the subject matter, with the nature of the occult . . . with what happens to someone who talks too much about it being a characteristic of the phenomena. Hansen, if I understand him correctly, sees the paranormal as truly dangerous and something to be respected and direct interaction with it comes at a cost to the individual. He discusses precautions he took when directly exploring the paranormal - such as not being engaged in an intimate relationship and simplifying his life as much as possible. He also discusses the experiences of other people who directly engage the paranormal. I think many people can relate to this discussion.

He also discusses the characteristics of those whose role it is to engage these forces. Such persons are liminal and ambiguous (for example they may be outside the norms of their society in terms of sexuality: see this very interesting website by Jeffrey Kripal, Chair of the Religious Department at Rice University Kali's Child) they may live physically removed from society, they are at once feared and despised, a source of awe and laughter. There is a fear of the real powers than seem to be around them but they are also looked down on and ridiculed.

As for the clown, it's a complex history and fascinating. Hansen refers several times throughout the book to the disturbing phrase "excrement eating ritual clowns" - (my Kindle edition is not indexed, or I would search and give you the number of times he uses this reference) - eating excrement is of course a reversal of the normal and Hansen documents this behavior in religious figures as well. As to taking advantage of fear, that's the role of the priest and associated organizations which stand at great remove from the paranormal. Hansen does a good job of delineating the role of the priest in his discussion of Weber and the disenchantment of the modern world. I think Hansen would say Saints and Holy Fools are truly exotic and don't exploit power, rather they are used by powers rather than using them for personal gain.

Also meant to add, Steve, that I'm not surprised that Hansen comes to no conclusions about the reality status of the 'trickster'. I'd hoped he would at some point foreground that question. My impression is that the trickster notion has in our time become a convenient means of avoiding the hard questions about paranormal, supernatural, and spiritual experiences that continue to proliferate in our world -- most inconvenient phenomena in a materialist age such as ours and unwelcome challenges to those who seek to promote a materialist description of reality.

I don't see it quite this way, if I understand Hansen, this is part of the nature of the phenomenon. The Trickster is betwixt and between (another phrase he uses many times throughout the book) and so it's reality status is indeterminate by nature - it does and doesn't exist . . . this is consistent with the Trickster as mythological figure, changing his appearance, appearing and disappearing, intervening when things get too orderly (so, Gremlins in WWII and the law of unintended consequences in today's high-tech world).

One thing to note, and it's in the article you linked to (which is covered in the book) is the relationship of stage magicians to the paranormal . . . magicians, according to Hansen, (who is a magician) tend to believe in the paranormal and magicians are also well represented in skeptic groups (e.g. The Amazing Randy - who I think it can be fairly said has some Trickster elements about him) . . . and he relates stories of magicians who set out to create an illusion, who get involved in deception and then experience paranormal effects.

Another good discussion on this is here:

Tim Cridland: True Disbelievers and Rogue Archaelogy | Radio Misterioso
 
So, more directly in response to:

Also meant to add, Steve, that I'm not surprised that Hansen comes to no conclusions about the reality status of the 'trickster'. I'd hoped he would at some point foreground that question. My impression is that the trickster notion has in our time become a convenient means of avoiding the hard questions about paranormal, supernatural, and spiritual experiences that continue to proliferate in our world -- most inconvenient phenomena in a materialist age such as ours and unwelcome challenges to those who seek to promote a materialist description of reality.
Hansen I think would say that all of the above is true, the Trickser has interposed itself in the discussion, providing an easy out and actively works to inconvenience the materialists. Hansen's theory I think says the Trickster also represents a boundary, so if you choose not to take the easy out, then trying to find out much more about the Trickster, trying to determine its reality status, even thinking about the Trickster will bring consequences - but on the other side, it predicts that the anomalous phenomena that plague materialists aren't ever going to go away and the arguments about experimental standards won't either - although both will change shape. The Trickster being the liminal arbiter between chaos and order. Hopefully I've represented Hansen's position fairly here.
 
I'm getting the impression that Hansen did/does think of the trickster as a being or force that possesses agency. It also seems that ufology thinks so. Ufo, would you provide some examples of what you mean in this paragraph from your most recent post?

In our discussions here I've warned of the Trickster. It seems to be interposing itself as an unseen filter that is inserted between what is written on the page and how it gets interpreted based on assumptions that aren't actually present. For example @Constance and @Tyger and to some degree yourself, and perhaps even me, have made several personal judgements about the writers of the content that have nothing to do with topic because this filter has imparted assumptions onto the text that aren't actually there.
 
For clarity, because it's important to be clear about what has occurred here vis-a-vis the other thread and this thread.

The result is that the actual subject matter gets derailed ( the goal of the Trickster ), and the participants are thrown into a state of disarray and focused instead on leveling personal criticism, which further prevents constructive discussion about the topic at hand. It's already derailed the first thread we had been on.
Are you saying it was your trickster that derailed the other thread?

It was your decision to control the discussion on the other thread - under the guise of 'staying on topic' - by 'forbidding' any mention of the paranormal, spiritual or mystical - that was the reason this thread was started and we de-camped to this thread.


It's also likely the same issues will continue to manifest themselves. The subject matter is difficult to traverse. So it isn't always fun. It's hard and often frustrating. That's why you withdrew from the other thread. Are you sure you really want to delve into it again?
Perhaps for you it is difficult, not fun and frustrating. For myself I find it fascinating and enlivening. My approach is dramatically different from Constance and Steve - who are both scholars and move forward with the discussion - when not stopped or blocked - with impressive content and analysis.

It's clear the posters here do want to discuss the trickster as well as all manner of stuff - so the thread is serving a good purpose. The discussion is moving forward at a fairly smooth clip.

If I were to guess, Tyger and Constance and perhaps yourself may be tempted to blame or criticize me for all the problems rather than focusing on the topic and remaining objective.
As you can see the discussion is moving forward - no blame is being assigned.

Can we avoid that this time? Or will the Trickster keep the upper hand? Let's find out.
It's up to you in how you post. All I have ever said - when I have said anything at all to you - was to ask that you be respectful of all the ideas and pov's brought up here. If the subject matter is uncomfortable - or without merit, in your opinion - the solution is not to hector the posters, but to supply cogent rebuttal or simply read another thread. I think that's fair.

I agree with your point earlier that differences of opinion make for interesting debate. It's not about all thinking the same thoughts. There are reasons why I cannot fully enter the dialog and must remain a dilletante - I can't read all the material (though I am making an effort because this stuff is quite good and I'd like to learn this side of things). To keep up with Constance and Steve I think one has to do the reading. :)
 
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LOL. I was sure you'd pick up the reference to the high horse you like to ride. I posted the image because I didn't trust myself to speak gently about the rhetorical number you did on Tyger in the preceding post.

Tyger wrote her most recent post to you to ask whether you seriously want to claim that the 'trickster' is responsible for your coercive, overbearing posts and that you are therefore not responsible for the way you express yourself. I wish you could gain an outside view of the way you conduct yourself here and in the previous thread this one developed out of. If you can't figure it out for yourself, you can always hire an English composition teacher to analyze the posts about which you've received complaints and teach you the difference between the connotative and denotative language and point out the belittling rhetorical devices you use to place others in a disadvantaged position.

Also, notably, again in this instance, rather than respond to my request for examples in which you think "faulty assumptions" have been made by Tyger or me about what you have written, you've evaded that question and tried to make an issue of this very tall horse. Tyger has referred in another post to your frequent failure to present substantive rebuttals to what she's written, instead relying on slurs, insults, and ridicule. I've seen you do that a dozen times. You also seem to have forgotten the article you promised to come back to a day or two before Christmas.
 
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One last thought: Tyger has mentioned a few times that it's best not to talk too much about some elements of the occult or supernatural or (pick your term) . . . Hansen touches directly on this and the idea of the taboo (lost I think on our culture) and gives some fascinating examples . . . including his own experiences . . . it's one of the things I've heard most frequently in exploring this field, everyone who has done some serious investigation seems to have experienced these effects.
There are different reasons for giving cautions and being cautious.

It's possible I mentioned I was being cautious about sharing too much because if one is hearing certain information without any experiences to inform the ideas, several possibilities are possible:

- the information becomes a source of fascination rather than knowledge, leading to potentially fanciful if not outright false interpretations of the material;

- the fascination leads to 'dabbling' before the person has done adequate personal preparation. The literature is rife with evidence of tragic consequences ensuing with premature precipitation of suprasensory capacities. I will give you one documented example in the occult literature from the 1920's.

A man and his wife were keen to explore the occult - its possible they had an interest in phenomena like contacting spirits and channeling. They were doing exercises, reading and associating with the relevant people in the occult field. The common caution is - focus on the purification, if capacities manifest, okay - but it is not advisable to seek out and force the manifestation of phenomena for the sake of phenomena (this is stressed again and again - do not seek out phenomena for phenomena sake). The wife of this man decided to do the latter and wound up forcing manifestation. Unfortunately, instead of it being clairvoyance ('clear seeing') - it was clairaudience ('clear hearing') that got manifested. Having no ability to command her lower forces - not having sufficiently completed purification and achieved command - the manifestations ruled her rather than she them - meaning, she was victim of auditory 'hallucinations' (from a mainstream psychological perspective) - from what I understand this is something you do not want to have happen. You do not want to open up this psychic capacity - it is near impossible to shut down. (In current times it appears there are drugs that can eliminate 'hearing voices'.) The end was tragic - she was driven mad by the 'voices' in her head and lived out the rest of her life in an asylum for the insane.

- in occult teaching it is stressed that knowledge entails responsibility. Though we are no longer living under the old dispensation, there remains an obligation upon the one with knowledge to dispense it responsibly. The consequences of being reckless with the information can result in tragedy, like in the story above. It is why the conveying of this information was always done in person and 'overseen'. However, we are not in that dispensation any longer. Things have changed - but the responsibility has not. My mumbling about the cautions and not speaking was my articulating my doubts concerning being so open on an internet chat site where I have no knowledge of the maturity or sophistication of the readers of my posts.

Steve, thank you so much for this substantive and detailed introduction to Hansen's book on the history of the 'trickster' concept. This subject seems to be an excellent opening for your personal examination of the paranormal in your blog, and I'm looking forward to reading everything you write in the blog as well as here, where I hope we'll see a discussion of what this concept signifies about human psychology and the meaning of demonstrated paranormal experience and abilities, which I think are two separate subjects. When you have time to add more, would you characterize Hansen's conclusions to his study? Thank you again for all you provide here.
I agree that they are two separate subjects (in a sense) though enmeshed, too. The same way that mineralogy and Geology can be considered two areas of study but they go hand-in-glove, as well.

Speaking in generalizations: Occultism has a model of the organization of the human being. A substantial - and exceedingly important - aspect of that knowledge concerns the psychology of the human being. The process of development one commences as one begins the 'path' is not easy and has many difficulties - as well as enormous rewards - and it includes psychological effects. That 'path' has been trod for millennia and there is therefore a considerable repository of knowledge about that 'path' and what one can expect as one progresses.

I hope to hear more from Tyger about the possible motivations of occult societies in keeping information private within their memberships. I would guess that those motivations have had something to do with threats to the members of those groups from people who opposed their interests and activities.
Prior to the big change from the 19th into the beginning of the 20th century, one entered occult groups by invitation. One was 'tapped' by a current member of a group and the responsibility taken on by the asker was significant. In saying this I would not be identifying the occult/esoteric groups - I am speaking generally. This much I am aware of: it is an area where fantastical ideas are abroad about all manner of groups and what they did or were involved with. It's an area I can't comment on, really - because my knowledge is limited.

However, you bring up a very pertinent point. There were German towns where right up into the 19th century Catholics had to register. The animosities that cleaved through communities and countries were not minor. Look at northern Ireland to get a sense of the passions that roiled through societies, through communities. The Catholic Church and the Pope - and the Inquisition - meant business. Wealth and power were the stakes - but it was a time when theological views were as seriously discussed as politics is today. The Jesuits are also an important player in it all. How power and influence was played in the 19th century and prior was very much through the network of who you knew, what groups backed you. Progressive ideas emerged from such groups - and power cabals across national boundaries. The French Revolution is steeped with this.

Then there is the matter of the pagan and gnostic streams - that the Church was hell-bent on stamping out. There are interesting reasons why the Church was putting constraints on 'pagan rites' - and 'atavistic' clairvoyance. Even the Protestants were rooting such practices out. Manifesting the clairvoyant has a consequence - it 'dims down' the intelligence. This is a whole topic.

'Taboos', ubiquitous in more primitive societies, suggest that the motivation is to maintain a distance between oneself and the unknown, especially where the unknown has been characterized as dangerous, frightening, overwhelming. Various practical reasons would exist, of course, for individuals or select groups to propagate such representations and characterizations of the 'unknown' and their own power to protect the larger social group from these unknown forces if they obeyed, paid tribute to, or otherwise cow-towed to those claiming protective power to control those forces.
Constance, I am not at all commenting on what you are saying above. Generally, though, there has been a 'divergence in the wood' as scholars who had no first hand experience of the suprasensory began to study the people who had a living experience of those realms. Anthropology was my first line of study at university - and I recall well the panoply of theories about tribal cultures and 'advanced' societies - particularly what I would call the mechanistic view of the 'function' of religion and the 'belief' in the spiritual.

The collective unconscious no doubt carries much of that history in an inchoate fashion but still capable of inspiring fear of the unknown in people of our time. That could account for a range of contemporary behaviors including the extreme resistance to psi expressed by both theists and athesists active in skeptical organizations, and indeed among some scientists.

I think the resistance is less based on fear as that there is an instinctive understanding - or a profound intuition more likely - that indulging in the 'clairvoyant' is a retrograde action. Indeed, occultism agrees with this. Putting 'atavistic clairvoyance' at a healthy arm's length is actually - in my estimation - a sound gesture.

The fact that the trickster figure in many different historical settings has often been seen as a jokester or clown suggests that people in those societies have found a way to manage their fears of the unknown by laughing at the liminal and paranormal.
This is what Anthropologists have surmised.

IIMO the Trickster is a symbol of the mind/emotions and how that geatalt undercuts us in our lived life.
 
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The interpretation of the trickster that I hold onto closely is what I've gleaned from Indiginous culture. The trickster is there to teach us. The liminal space is a borderland, a hypnogogic state, a demarcation zone in the mind of irrationality, a fecund and creative plane - a necessity. To human culture, our wholeness includes the shadowy realm. Over time we have even created job descriptions to help firm up the outlines of that which has little by way of edges for purchase or foothold: the shawman, medium, magician, parasychologist.

These misty spaces of dreams, time slips, alien abductions, ghosts, second sight, third eyes and remote viewing are all about seeing something just there around the corner, under the skin that is peeled back, pierced, slipped over and into. The trickster is under the covers with us, warm, cool, hot and blinding. The trickster calls, entices and produces both paranoia & horror, fascination and desire. It is as repulsive as our worst fear. It is deranged. It is compelling. It is a compulsion. It is delicious, this strange delight.

And we stand in the waist high water, half in and out of the air, native to two realms, but knowing so little of the underwater world. In the dark, strange creatures swim up to our face and then disappear back into the unknown. We have lived so long this way, brief visions, keeping secrets.

I wonder if there will ever come a time that we will live magically, without being shunned. What would the world look like if we embraced the creation/destruction cycle fully and lived together, liminally, with our dreams? That world woud not resemble this one much, in any way, I think. It's impossible to ask, improbable to measure. Relegation follows. The trickster stays elusive, but holds out a hand as guide.
 
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It forces us further away from the goal of the subject matter, and that is the goal of the Trickster, to derail and confuse the seeker.

Correct - so why not just press on?

BTW, the Trisckster is not necessarily 'an external agency' - the Trickster is ourselves. We do ourselves in - via pride, inability to admit error, an inability to apologize when feelings have been hurt.

There are a series of Initiations that the developing Individuality undergoes. At a certain stage the aspirant seeks to associate with like-minded individuals - and this is the beginning of the 'Group Initiation' - meaning, developing through relationship with people, how to live within one's society. This is the initiation that will transform in ways obvious and profound. It's after this Initiation has been successfully negotiated that one is 'safe' (in a manner of speaking) for suprasensory experiences.

A very rigorous group initiatory experience (not for the faint of heart - quite legitimate - not a 'cult') can be had with Gurdjieff - Becoming Conscious "The Fourth Way is waiting for workers. There is no statement and no thought in it which does not require further development and elaboration." - Ouspensky

Gurdjiieff is the deep end of the pool. Jung is a good beginning.
 
I don't see that Hansen has been on the Paracast?

He has been a guest on a number of other shows including Expanding Minds with Erik Davis (excellent) and several episodes of Paratopia - he has a list at his website here:

Links -- The Trickster and the Paranormal

a short thread on this forum:

The Trickster and the Paranormal | The Paracast Community Forums

@Christopher O'Brien notes:

It's a mechanism, not some sort of Hollywood stereotypical image or scenario. Don't pretend to project... what you banish, you might invoke. ;)
and Ufology, you had an interesting post there too about how the Trickster element has manifested for you.
 
I'm getting the impression that Hansen did/does think of the trickster as a being or force that possesses agency. It also seems that ufology thinks so. Ufo, would you provide some examples of what you mean in this paragraph from your most recent post?

That is an interesting question . . . I can't get myself to go entirely with a psychological explanation for the Trickster - it makes more sense that any given gestalt or archetype has some correspondence "out there", that they developed as a way of perceiving something about the world (including ourselves).

If it's just in our psychology (narrowly construed) don't we have to give a natural history of perversity and self-defeating behavior? Or an evolutionary story about this . . . perhaps there is a way that this behavior has survival value and so is conserved, but don't we have to be careful about "just-so" stories?

To me it seems a stretch to think that a subconscious complex, by itself, would see to it that the law of unintended consequences is built into every technological advance . . .

(it strikes me that the history and very logic of magick, whether sympathetic, natural or ritual is replete with warnings about unintended consequences . . . see John Updike's novel Brazil for a modern example . . . so why didn't technology come with a similar warning label in our culture?)

So these things are hard to tease apart and in fact, I don't think they are actually separate - which is cogent with a world view in which consciousness influences as well as perceives.

So for me - the Trickster both resides within us (and I would think other beings) and in the structure of the world "out there" and takes its agency from both.

It's a mechanism, not some sort of Hollywood stereotypical image or scenario. Don't pretend to project... what you banish, you might invoke. ;)

Christopher O'Brien

posted here:The Trickster and the Paranormal | The Paracast Community Forums
 
Meaning...If the magical effect has no primary source, or supply, then the magic dies quickly in the wind.

We are the source and often startled or embarrassed about the effects.

Nothing in this life comes with a warning label unless a conservative deemed it worrying that youth might get corrupted by it. Technology, an extension of ourselves, is the trickster in action. We feed it, fuel it, reinvent ourselves through it and know not what else it will deliver. We surrender to its magic.

In the future programmers will be the Shawman and the Witch. The rest of us will just be in awe of the fireworks.
 
Meaning...If the magical effect has no primary source, or supply, then the magic dies quickly in the wind.

We are the source and often startled or embarrassed about the effects.

Nothing in this life comes with a warning label unless a conservative deemed it worrying that youth might get corrupted by it. Technology, an extension of ourselves, is the trickster in action. We feed it, fuel it, reinvent ourselves through it and know not what else it will deliver. We surrender to its magic.

In the future programmers will be the Shawman and the Witch. The rest of us will just be in awe of the fireworks.

In the future programmers will be the Shawman and the Witch. The rest of us will just be in awe of the fireworks.

In the future . . . ?

Nothing in this life comes with a warning label unless a conservative deemed it worrying that youth might get corrupted by it. Technology, an extension of ourselves, is the trickster in action. We feed it, fuel it, reinvent ourselves through it and know not what else it will deliver. We surrender to its magic.

From my post:

(it strikes me that the history and very logic of magick, whether sympathetic, natural or ritual is replete with warnings about unintended consequences . . . see John Updike's novel Brazil for a modern example . . . so why didn't technology come with a similar warning label in our culture?)

I was being a bit facetious . . . our culture has warning labels instead of taboos . . .

I'm trying to get at a distinction between Magick and Technology - using the definitions that Magick is change in consciousness according to will - and technology as manipulation of matter and energy according to physical principles according to will . . . I don't know maybe it's because there is an old tradition and these taboos, inhibitions and warnings developed along with and were carried by the tradition, but it seems to me that the unexpected is an expected part of magick - another example is prophecy (see how the three witches' prophecy in MacBeth worked itself out - all true, but in unexpected ways . . . The Monkey's Paw is a paradigm example) - whereas it seems the general attitude, the popular one about technology is that it's just a matter of working the glitches out, when perhaps the glitches are part of it and lead into the next technology as a process. This popular sense seems to be changing and may take the form of anti-science or simply a more cynical and saavy end-user (which fact can then be fed back into the design process).
 
When you make art say by way of ritual performance, or by way of writing, or by way of painting or Photoshop is there any difference in the changing of consciousness by will? Is it that magick has no real predictable physical principles, despite it's claims, vs. what is clearly measurable through technological manipulations? I think I need these two types of alchemy to be distinguished more clearly. Are you saying that magick uses no tools, no words, only will?
 
Selections from George P. Hansen's The Trickster and the Paranormal:

One of the implications of the pattern is that there are subtle but pervasive pressures that conspire to keep the paranormal marginalized and scientific investigation at a minimum. This does not require a consciously organized human conspiracy. It is a direct property of the phenomena. Psi interacts with our physical world, with our thoughts, and with our social institutions. Even contemplating certain ideas has consequences. The phenomena are not to be tamed by mere logic and rationality, and attempts to do so are doomed to failure. These notions are undoubtedly anathema to my scientific colleagues in parapsychology. To their chagrin, I will demonstrate that deception and the irrational are keys to understanding psi.

. . .

The themes in this book include uncertainty, ambiguity, instability, the void and the abyss. These are neither patternless, nor without power. Make no mistake, by using rational means this book endeavors to illuminate the irrational, and to demonstrate the severe limitations of logic and rationality. When the supernatural and irrational are banished from consciousness, they are not destroyed, rather, they become exceedingly dangerous.

. . .

Mythological tricksters are almost all male. In fact, Lewis Hyde's book Trickster Makes This World (1998) includes an entire appendix titled "Trickster and Gender," which begins with the statement "All the standard tricksters are male." Though female mythological characters sometimes engage in deception, rarely are they included under the trickster rubric. Despite all this, women scholars have provided some of the greatest insight. Among the writings I have found of particular value are those of Barbara Babcock, Jean Shinoda Bolen, Joan Wescott, Laura Makarius, Christine Downing, and Claumdia Camp. Their work is often unappreciated by males.
 
Steiner Schools - Mini Documentary



I have watched the video and you don't disappoint, Ufology - unless you mean this video to be an example of the Trickster at work. Should I ascribe that level of sophistication to your posting? Hard to know what your intent is since you do not bother to articulate your pov.

Yet again you tap a video that is skewed. I don't wonder at the beliefs you carry because you seem to get the bulk of your information fromYouTube videos. The journalist in this piece is clearly biased to the point of being a bully with one of her interviewees. She has an agenda and is twisting the narrative to suit her intent. That seems obvious to even casual observation. An example of how powerful and corrupt tabloid journalism can be. I will assume that you believe this is a well-done piece of reportage - and that you've tapped into some fundamental truths. It would valuable for you to state what you think.

Current occultists - and esotericists - are aware of Steiner's work. He is one of the significant spiritual teachers at the beginning of the 20th century - and his compendium of extant work is outstanding. He stands in an arc of individuals at the turn of the last century (with Blavatsky, Besant, Gurdjieff, Jung, Krishnamurti, Nicholas Roerich, Mary Baker Eddy - the list is long and storied) that have profoundly impacted current spiritual thought. Hardly a significant person alive at that time were not personally acquainted with one or more of these individuals. Few in spiritual investigations do not owe a debt to their insights. The modern re-founding of the Rosicrucians (A.M.O.R.C. San Jose CA) stems from people who studied under Steiner, I believe - or attended his lectures, at least - I do not think they were personal students of Steiner.

I would strongly urge you to begin reading material rather than depend so heavily on YouTube and Wikipedia for your information.

While I do not believe it is fair to judge anyone by their followers - it's usually a mixed bag - and that goes for 'followers' of various scientists, anyone really, I think it's a truism - I am impressed with the thinkers that have emerged from working with Steiner's indications. I will supply just one example here. I think it's important given the questionable link given above.

Here are the thoughts of one thinker who has been influenced by Steiner - from a medical doctor - very relevant to the thread because she is discussing consciousness -

 
When you make art say by way of ritual performance, or by way of writing, or by way of painting or Photoshop is there any difference in the changing of consciousness by will? Is it that magick has no real predictable physical principles, despite it's claims, vs. what is clearly measurable through technological manipulations? I think I need these two types of alchemy to be distinguished more clearly. Are you saying that magick uses no tools, no words, only will?

When you make art say by way of ritual performance, or by way of writing, or by way of painting or Photoshop is there any difference in the changing of consciousness by will?

I don't know. Austin Osman Spare was an artist and a mage - I think he might say there isn't much difference. He claimed to have worked magick into his art, perhaps in the form of sigils as does Allan Moore (Watchmen, V for Vendetta, etc):


Is it that magick has no real predictable physical principles, despite it's claims, vs. what is clearly measurable through technological manipulations?

Do you mean to say that magic has no real predictable physical effects? (instead of principles) I don't think the definition I provided or the one below makes that claim. But, changes in consciousness do most often result in physical effects.

I have very limited knowledge of magick - I can recommend John Michael Greer as being a very clear writer on the subject. From Mystery Teachings of the Living Earth:

Mystery Teachings from the Living Earth: An Introduction to Spiritual Ecology: John Michael Greer: 9781578634897: Amazon.com: Books


"What is magic? Perhaps the most useful definition describes it as the art and science of causing changes in consciousness in accordance with will.

The tools of magic are useful because most of the factors that shape human awareness are not immediately accessible to the conscious mind; they operate at levels below the one where our ordinary thinking, feeling, and willing take place. The mystery schools have long known and taught that consciousness has a surface and a depth. The surface is accessible to each of us, but the depth is not. To cause lasting changes in consciousness that can have magical effects on one's own life and that of others, the depth must be reached, and to reach down past the surface, ordinary thinking and willing are not enough."

vs. what is clearly measurable through technological manipulations?

Let me turn the question around: what is clearly measurable through technological manipulations? Because of the way we set up the question, we can receive a clear answer. Allowed the same terms, I think magic can do the same thing. What is less clear and measurable are the larger effects of technological manipulation (and magical manipulation). The unintended consequences. Here is an example:

Technology and our brain - Big Ideas - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

"What is leisure technology doing to our brains? Many children are now growing up immersed in technology, which – as some say – is an unprecedented threat to the human brain. Paul Howard-Jones, from the University of Bristol, presents the current evidence on technology’s impact on the brain and explores the relationship between reward and learning."

I think I need these two types of alchemy to be distinguished more clearly.

What two types of alchemy do you need distinguished?

Are you saying that magick uses no tools, no words, only will?

Again, John Michael Greer:

"
All the instruments of magic - the wands, robes, candles, billowing incense, mystic gestures, words of power, and the rest of the items in the toolkit of magical work - are simply tools by which mages can cause changes in their own consciousness and in the consciousness of others. These tools are not, strictly speaking, necessary. Given enough practice and skill, a mage can get the same effects without them as with them."
 
I'm not sure what you mean by the above. When you say "suprasensory experiences", what exactly do you mean? Is it like the stuff Rudolph Steiner's talked about?
I don't know. What do you think is 'the stuff' Rudolf Steiner talked about?
You mean George Ivanovich Gurdjieff (January 13, 1866 – October 29, 1949), also commonly referred to as Georges Ivanovich Gurdjieff and G. I. Gurdjieff, was an influential spiritual teacher of the early to mid-20th century who taught that most humans live their lives in a state of hypnotic "waking sleep", but that it is possible to transcend to a higher state of consciousness and achieve full human potential?
Your copy-and-paste technique needs a little attention, but other than that, yes, that's the bloke. The site I linked to is an excellent one, lots of gems - like this one -

"In each new age, the previous age persists, and within the previous age impulses from the ages preceding it. The series may reach back a very long way, but at a certain point continuity with the past is lost. Our memory as a species, our sense of vision and of guiding purpose, is weak, and indeed, grows weaker with each decade. In the nineteenth century, the memory of the medieval world was present in a way that it is not today. In the twentieth century the memory of the Renaissance still persists in our habits and our way of life, but the memory of the classical world and of classicism has nearly faded.

"In the mid nineteenth century there were, in Asia Minor, strands of memory running back deep into the history of our family of civilisations, to Babylon and Chaldea. They were preserved over such vast spans of time because they were of value, and they were preserved by the work of school. George
Gurdjieff connected with this thread, and with the knowledge he found, he opened up the fourth way."
 
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