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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 4

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@Constance

Re the idea that consciousness doesnt have an objective function ... And in reference to zombies - this is related to a cluster of ideas/terms centered on mental causation:
  • Causal impotence
  • Epiphenomenalism
  • Causal overdetermination
  • Causal closure over physics
@Soupie are these at least some of the ideas you are working with when you say there is no objective function for consciouness?

@Pharoahs account - as i understand it - seems to depend on and assume mental causation but doesnt show how its possible.
 
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On Zombies

If consciousness is causally impotent, then we ARE the zombies and so there is something it is like to be a zombie!

:)
 
@Constance

Re the idea that consciousness doesnt have an objective function ... And in reference to zombies - this is related to a cluster of ideas/terms centered on mental causation:
  • Causal impotence
  • Epiphenomenalism
  • Causal overdetermination
  • Causal closure over physics
Okay. Do you hold a brief for any of those ideas, and if so would you argue each case?
 
On Zombies

If consciousness is causally impotent, then we ARE the zombies and so there is something it is like to be a zombie!

What do you mean by 'causally impotent'? And what are the arguments you've read that might persuade you that "consciousness is causally impotent"?
 
What do you mean by 'causally impotent'? And what are the arguments you've read that might persuade you that "consciousness is causally impotent"?

Causally impotent means consciousness, the subjective state - the experience of my deciding in the Libet experiments for example - does not do anything, has no phyical effect. The activity of neurons does all the work.

I think this is what @Soupie means by "no objective function" but i want to be sure.

Right now, Im not persuaded.
 
Re "Causal closure over physics," it's a goal devoutly wished to be attained by many physicists, but it hasn't been and likely will not be.
 
Causally impotent means consciousness, the subjective state - the experience of my deciding in the Libet experiments for example - does not do anything, has no phyical effect. The activity of neurons does all the work.

I think this is what @Soupie means by "no objective function" but i want to be sure.

Right now, Im not persuaded.

Libet wasn't persuaded by that physicalist interpretation either. One of his arguments concerned processing time in the mind between deciding to respond and responding. Another concerned the value of this processing in the veto power it enables. We should really read what Libet has written. I'll search it out; I think there have been two papers since those experiments were run.
 
Another paper by Libet:

Reflections on the interaction of the mind and brain
Benjamin Libet * Center for Neuroscience, University of California at Davis, Davis, CA 95616, USA
Progress in Neurobiology 78 (2006) 322–326

Abstract: Problems associated with the topic of the mind–brain interaction are reviewed and analyzed. If there is an interaction, then the ‘‘mind’’ and ‘‘brain’’ are independent variables; the mind represents subjective experience and is therefore a non-physical phenomenon. This fact led to the need for a field theory, termed here the ‘‘cerebral mental field’’ (CMF). By definition, the CMF is a system property produced by the appropriate activities of billions of neurons. An experimental test of this theory is possible and a test design is presented. The most direct experimental evidence has been obtained by use of intracranial stimulating and recording electrodes. Important information has also been developed, however, with extracranial imaging techniques. These can be very fast (in ms), but the cerebral neuronal events that produce changes in physiological properties require a time delay for their processing. A number of surprising time factors affecting the appearance of a subjective somatosensory experience are described, and their wider implications are discussed. Among these is a delay (up to 0.5 s) in the generation of a sensory awareness. Thus, unconscious cerebral processes precede a subjective sensory experience. If this can be generalized to all kinds of subjective experiences, it would mean that all mental events begin unconsciously and not just those that never become conscious. In spite of the delay for a sensory experience, subjectively there appears to be no delay. Evidence was developed to demonstrate that this phenomenon depends on an antedating of the delayed experience. There is a subjective referral backward in time to coincide with the time of the primary cortical response to the earliest arriving sensory signal. The subjective referral in time is analogous to the well-known subjective referral in space. In conclusion, features of the CMF can be correlated with brain events, even though the CMF is non-physical, by study of subjective reports from the human subject.

# 2006 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved. Keywords: J.C. Eccles; Mind–brain problem; Conscious field; Subjective experience; Referred sensations; Non-physical mental

http://www.trans-techresearch.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2006-LIBET.pdf
 
@Soupie, I'm still hoping that you'll engage these more immediate questions I asked a few posts back.

[slightly edited] "Can you explain what you mean in more detail? How can the 'brain' experience phenomena -- the phenomenal appearance of things?
I've already explained above my understanding of how the organism experiences the environment by way of being an intentional system. @Pharoah 's HCT explains this quite well in my opinion, if you're still not sure what I mean.

However, I don't believe organisms experience phenomena. This would imply that organisms experience experience. Such thinking leads to confusion in my opinion.

Rather than suggesting that organisms can and do experience experience, I think it's more helpful to think of it as conceptual thinking, which introduces concepts/symbols such as self and other.

It's easy to see how conceptual thinking leads to such confusion. For example, if one, looking in the mirror, thinks something as simple as the following: "That is my body," it leads one to the intuitive conclusion that the conscious, observing self and the body are distinct. What's more, if we consider that perception of the body is a mental content, then we intuitively feel that the observing self is distinct from this mental content as well.

On my current view, all experience is intentional information embodied by processes in the organism; and the conceptual distinction between a (mental) self and other is intentional information (despite strong intuitive feelings to the contrary).

Conscious beings
experience phenomena through direct sensual acquaintance and contact with that which appears in their vicinity. They also reflect on and gradually recognize the nature of their own experience in terms of its partial access to the being of 'things' through their openness to the phenomenal appearances of things. Eventually conscious beings like ourselves think about the meaning and consequences of this relation between the subjective and objective aspects of reality bodied forth -- realized -- in our experience. These are all activities grounded in consciousness and mind. What is grounded in the three-pound brain in itself?
I'm not sure what you're asking. What is grounded in the brain?

The physical organism physically interacts with the environment. These interactions produce physical perturbations in the organism. These perturbations inform the organism about the environment.

Some of these perturbations share an identity with conscious states.

What is the nature of the 'information' with which the brain works if not the tangible, sensed, and felt information obtained in and through direct experience in the environment and in the increasing self-awareness of conscious beings?"
You seem to be blending the physical and the phenomenal here.

The nature of the information with which the brain works is a plethora of various physical stimuli in the environment: chemicals, radiation, vibrating molecules, etc. These stimuli—in themselves—are not information. However, when they perturb the organism-system, these perturbations inform the organism-system.

For example, if light waves of a particular wave length are received by an organism, these waves will cause a particular perturbation within the system. This particular perturbation will inform the organism-system that a particular stimuli exists within its environment. It's my contention that this informational perturbation will be subjectively experienced by the system as, say, phenomenal green.

Moreover, we shouldn't say the organism is experiencing green. Rather, we should say the organism is experiencing light waves; and that experience is green.

Now, not all intentional perturbations within the organism-system share an identity with consciousness. Some (most) intentional perturbations remain subconscious. Why that is remains an exciting mystery.
 
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@smcder

Where is psychology's non-stick frying pan? | The Psychologist

"If you were asked to list the top five achievements in psychology, what would you say? Be honest, you’d probably splutter for a bit and then try to divert the question. I’ve sprung this on colleagues and they have come up with suggestions like attachment theory, the multi-stage memory model or even CBT. I don’t consider this an impressive list. In fact, to me it suggests a horrible truth – for all the bluster about science, all the fancy equipment and million pound research grants, we haven’t discovered any great new understandings or technologies about our core subject – ourselves.

Yes, we have produced studies and papers that cite and excite our colleagues. When spun in the right way, psychology can light up the sofa of The One Show or the Today studio. But does any of it amount to any more than a hill of beans? A standard definition of psychology is ‘the scientific study of people, the mind and behaviour’. So what are the headline discoveries about people, mind and behaviour? And do these findings match up to the discoveries of the other sciences?

Look at physics. It has split the atom, it has gravity, it has quantum theory, the Large Hadron Collider and the Higgs boson. It has the Big Bang theory, which offers an explanation of how the universe was formed. Chemistry has the periodic table of elements, a classification of all substances in the universe. Biology has evolution, a robust theory of how we came to be here. I could go on.

‘Psychology is a young science’, we say by way of excuse for the lack of great findings. But 150 years is not that young. There are younger sciences that have more to show: electronics has the microchip, genetics has mapped out the human genome.

The central issue concerns how we develop knowledge in psychology. To start with, other sciences have testable theories; psychology has testable hypotheses. What’s the difference? Einstein’s theory of general relativity was first presented in 1915 and then spectacularly tested in 1919 when light was shown to bend round the sun during a solar eclipse to the amount predicted by the theory. The existence of the Higgs boson was predicted by theory in the 1960s, as a crucial test of the Standard Model of particle physics. It was finally confirmed to exist in 2013.

What psychological theory produces predictions that can be tested in this way? Or to be even more challenging, what collection of ideas in psychology have we got that we can call a testable theory? What is psychology’s Big Bang? ..."
 
@smcder

Where is psychology's non-stick frying pan? | The Psychologist

"If you were asked to list the top five achievements in psychology, what would you say? Be honest, you’d probably splutter for a bit and then try to divert the question. I’ve sprung this on colleagues and they have come up with suggestions like attachment theory, the multi-stage memory model or even CBT. I don’t consider this an impressive list. In fact, to me it suggests a horrible truth – for all the bluster about science, all the fancy equipment and million pound research grants, we haven’t discovered any great new understandings or technologies about our core subject – ourselves.

Yes, we have produced studies and papers that cite and excite our colleagues. When spun in the right way, psychology can light up the sofa of The One Show or the Today studio. But does any of it amount to any more than a hill of beans? A standard definition of psychology is ‘the scientific study of people, the mind and behaviour’. So what are the headline discoveries about people, mind and behaviour? And do these findings match up to the discoveries of the other sciences?

Look at physics. It has split the atom, it has gravity, it has quantum theory, the Large Hadron Collider and the Higgs boson. It has the Big Bang theory, which offers an explanation of how the universe was formed. Chemistry has the periodic table of elements, a classification of all substances in the universe. Biology has evolution, a robust theory of how we came to be here. I could go on.

‘Psychology is a young science’, we say by way of excuse for the lack of great findings. But 150 years is not that young. There are younger sciences that have more to show: electronics has the microchip, genetics has mapped out the human genome.

The central issue concerns how we develop knowledge in psychology. To start with, other sciences have testable theories; psychology has testable hypotheses. What’s the difference? Einstein’s theory of general relativity was first presented in 1915 and then spectacularly tested in 1919 when light was shown to bend round the sun during a solar eclipse to the amount predicted by the theory. The existence of the Higgs boson was predicted by theory in the 1960s, as a crucial test of the Standard Model of particle physics. It was finally confirmed to exist in 2013.

What psychological theory produces predictions that can be tested in this way? Or to be even more challenging, what collection of ideas in psychology have we got that we can call a testable theory? What is psychology’s Big Bang? ..."

I asked you first! :) (see post#1077 above)

@Soupie wrote
Having said all that, progress can and is being made on the mind/body problem despite those previously and continuously noted obstacles.

In light of this post, let me ask it this way:

What are the top five steps that you see have been made toward solving the mind/body problem?

I'm also wondering why you are asking me this question now about psychology? I was just listening to something on this last night, coincidentally ... let me see if I can find a transcript.
 
You seem to be blending the physical and the phenomenal here.

The physical and the phenomenal are blended in our conscious experience in and of the world.

Perception understood phenomenologically is grounded in both prereflective and reflective direct encounters with the actual physical world in which one finds oneself existing. The 'brain' does not [cannot] perceive this world directly; the embodied conscious being can and does.

You seem to claim that the brain is grounded in 'information' received and correlated {made sense of} only in and by the brain, but that this information does not come to the brain through/by way of a being's conscious experiences of interrelation with the physicality of things. You refer to the brain's activities as 'conceptual' -- the brain devising concepts of ‘what-is’ without directly experiencing interaction with the physical actuality of what-is as perceived, felt, contemplated, and understood by the organism that experiences what-is.

There is still an unbreached gap in your theory between the way in which the world's being is experienced and understood and that which, in your view, the brain or the neurons conceptualize about the world and the mind's relation to the world.

Those concepts are grounded in, built up and developed in, consciousness and mind before the brain can accommodate itself to them, integrate and support them. Consciousness and mind are built up out of actual sensed and perceptual experience in the world. Consciousness begins in preconscious acquaintance with the physical world/environment, in what phenomenologists refer to as "prereflective experience" that already orients us to our situation in the world before we begin to reflect on it.

Prereflective experience eventually gives way to reflective consciousness, which thinks about its relationship with the world and recognizes (or ought to recognize) its relationship as one of interdependence of consciousness and worldly things as understood through analysis of their phenomenal appearances. Phenomenology reveals that our knowledge of the world comes to us initially through our embodied conscious experience in and of the world. Our consequent propounding of that experience reveals its character and quality as intelligent openness to the world and thereby discovery of the world’s intelligibility.


The human consequences of reductive materialist/physicalist theories of consciousness and mind seem to me to be well expressed in this sculpture:

Mousa Alseabawi - Photos from Mousa Alseabawi's post in... | Facebook
 
The physical and the phenomenal are blended in our conscious experience in and of the world.

Perception understood phenomenologically is grounded in both prereflective and reflective direct encounters with the actual physical world in which one finds oneself existing. The 'brain' does not [cannot] perceive this world directly; the embodied conscious being can and does.

You seem to claim that the brain is grounded in 'information' received and correlated {made sense of} only in and by the brain, but that this information does not come to the brain through/by way of a being's conscious experiences of interrelation with the physicality of things. You refer to the brain's activities as 'conceptual' -- the brain devising concepts of ‘what-is’ without directly experiencing interaction with the physical actuality of what-is as perceived, felt, contemplated, and understood by the organism that experiences what-is.

There is still an unbreached gap in your theory between the way in which the world's being is experienced and understood and that which, in your view, the brain or the neurons conceptualize about the world and the mind's relation to the world.

Those concepts are grounded in, built up and developed in, consciousness and mind before the brain can accommodate itself to them, integrate and support them. Consciousness and mind are built up out of actual sensed and perceptual experience in the world. Consciousness begins in preconscious acquaintance with the physical world/environment, in what phenomenologists refer to as "prereflective experience" that already orients us to our situation in the world before we begin to reflect on it.

Prereflective experience eventually gives way to reflective consciousness, which thinks about its relationship with the world and recognizes (or ought to recognize) its relationship as one of interdependence of consciousness and worldly things as understood through analysis of their phenomenal appearances. Phenomenology reveals that our knowledge of the world comes to us initially through our embodied conscious experience in and of the world. Our consequent propounding of that experience reveals its character and quality as intelligent openness to the world and thereby discovery of the world’s intelligibility.


The human consequences of reductive materialist/physicalist theories of consciousness and mind seem to me to be well expressed in this sculpture:

Mousa Alseabawi - Photos from Mousa Alseabawi's post in... | Facebook

I like that sculpture!
 
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