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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 12

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... we argue (see Against Causal Accounts of NCCs) that this causal strategy is misguided. It implicitly involves an undesirable dualism of matter and mind and should thus be avoided. A non-causal account of the brain-mind correlations is to be preferred. ...
Statements about what "should" be, are opinions. Some opinions make more sense than others. Just because Dennett has a problem with "Double Transduction" and is stuck in his particular flavor of dualism, doesn't mean there aren't both minds and materials, or that double transduction isn't happening. Communications, systems use it regularly at a speed that exceeds the speed of neural processors. It's not a problem. It's a potential solution.

Minds and materials are also facts of life, unless that is, one is a subjective idealist who only believes in the existence of minds, or is a classical materialist who only believes all things are stuff. By insisting that the situation must be one way or the other, we only paint ourselves into a dead end. The logical alternative is that the situation is both, but we don't yet know how to explain it.
 
According to the software, it seems that there is a recent post to page 22 of our thread, but it doesn't appear to be there. What up?

Because the only post on page 22 is apparently this one of mine.
 
Statements about what "should" be, are opinions. Some opinions make more sense than others. Just because Dennett has a problem with "Double Transduction" and is stuck in his particular flavor of dualism, doesn't mean there aren't both minds and materials, or that double transduction isn't happening. Communications, systems use it regularly at a speed that exceeds the speed of neural processors. It's not a problem. It's a potential solution.

Minds and materials are also facts of life, unless that is, one is a subjective idealist who only believes in the existence of minds, or is a classical materialist who only believes all things are stuff. By insisting that the situation must be one way or the other, we only paint ourselves into a dead end. The logical alternative is that the situation is both, but we don't yet know how to explain it.
Dennett is not a dualist.
The “should” is in reference to materialism. If one is making an argument logically congruent with materialism.
With all due respect ufology your know it all attitude and refusal to accept when you are confused/ignorant (re fundamental and emergent) is making it impossible to have a discussion with you.
 
According to the software, it seems that there is a recent post to page 22 of our thread, but it doesn't appear to be there. What up?

Because the only post on page 22 is apparently this one of mine.

@Soupie has noticed some irregularities-posts delayed for "editing" And I had a post removed: "issue resolved" ... It was my post asking about the delays, so not a substantive post.
 
Sorry for my late reply, Constance. I spend a lot of time sleeping, eating and working (priority implied). Let's start with the first retort:

"{note 1: you seem to claim that ‘the very entity we think we are’ is an illusion produced by the ‘framework’ [structures of experience, structures of consciousness] which we sense/discover/recognize/understand in analyzing the relations and structures of our sense perceptions. So are you indeed arguing that what we perceive and reflect upon cannot enlighten us regarding the nature of our existence/our being?}"


Agreed...except for the "illusion" part. An "illusion" is a phenomena registered that isn't in our reality what it seems. The problem with using this example is that it doesn't translate to the real basis for the reality which we endure or persist in the world. "Not being what seems" is a metaphor that can only apply to the entire framework that underlies our experience of the same. So we cannot rightly call the entire basis of our experience an "illusion"--the basis and framework has already encompassed examples of things that are dynamically "discovered" by the mechanism that underlies Dasein.

The same is true for the "structures" you identify as the "source" of our "experience." Dasein "thinks" it is enlightened by the objects that are the foundation of it's own being ... but logically (with or without the framework that makes Dasein) we do not have to percieve or reflect upon the ready-at-hand or present-at-hand components to find the necessary background that encompasses both.

So you think you've found 'the necessary background' elsewhere, far from the local precincts in which we find ourselves existing, perceiving, experiencing, and thinking, a place which is for us not yet inhabitable or grok-able. Yet you seem to believe that you can ground your understanding of what-is on this postulated point of view from everywhere, a god-like perspective on the whole of what-is. Meanwhile you seem to recognize that what we are able to think or imagine arises out of our existentially situated embodied and embedded perspectives within that which we encounter as sensing beings in a radically temporal and local mileau. How do you propose to resolve this ambiguity?

Why are you bracketing? From whence comes the desire to separate the "environing" world from the embedded "Dasein" that would not even experience it's own "being" without the framework which it cannot completely (by definition) understand? What you are saying in your reductio is actually extremely profound: we do not exist. That is a true statement made by any Dasein that is embedded in a world answering the question of being.

It seems to me that it is you who is doing the 'bracketing', seeking simultanously a) to erase our humanly lived experience and the history of our consequent thinking -- i.e., that which we can interrogate and increasingly understand about the nature and limits of our own existence and, as well, that of the temporarily environing world within which we find ourselves existing -- and b) to persuade us that what we take to ground and constitute our existence and consciousness is an illusion. And further, that the only 'reality' in Being is to be found in comprehending the entire substructure and evolution of 'being' constituting the universe or cosmos, which we also cannot experience or understand. If so, what is there to discuss? Why are we here these last three years or so studying consciousness and mind in our species and others? Should we just shut down the thread if we accept your viewpoint that we do not exist and therefore have no need to pursue phenomenologically founded grounds for epistemological, ontological, and ethical branches of our species' philosophy?

Sorry I can't see the merit in what you are arguing or its use for us as a species and for the fates of the other species that share our mutually lived realities.

In other words, "we do not exist" as existence-creators is a truism. We do not exist...we are the fountainhead of the experience that is later labeled (lamely) as "existence" The eye will never see itself in the full reality of its ability to witness and reflect on the same.

Which philosophers we've consulted and cited in this thread have ever argued that we are 'existence-creators'? What does that even mean? Also, what is the meaning of your last, bolded claim: "The eye will never see itself in the full reality of its ability to witness and reflect on the same." Sounds like a reference to Emerson's Transparent Eyeball, or to Husserl's postulated and then rejected Transcendental Ego.


At the same time, we recognize that “brain activity” is the human perceptual and conceptual understanding of an actual process transcending human perception and conception.

Do you think that the activity of a brain-in-a-vat would also achieve this "human perceptual and conceptual understanding of an actual process transcending human perception and conception"? Also, what makes you confident that brains in normally situated/embodied conditions in our local world achieve this "human perceptual and conceptual understanding of an actual process transcending human perception and conception"? Only the mystics go there, and there lies the whole unstudied range of what we call 'paranormal' experience. Shouldn't we pursue that subject matter, finally, in our assays into the understanding of 'consciousness'?

Note: no time left to reread and edit this. If necessary I will amend it later.
 
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Do you think that the activity of a brain-in-a-vat would also achieve this "human perceptual and conceptual understanding of an actual process transcending human perception and conception"? Also, what makes you confident that brains in normally situated/embodied conditions in our local world achieve this "human perceptual and conceptual understanding of an actual process transcending human perception and conception"? Only the mystics go there, and there lies the whole unstudied range of what we call 'paranormal' experience. Shouldn't we pursue that subject matter, finally, in our assays into the understanding of 'consciousness'?
Actually, what I meant to imply was that our human understanding of brain activity is very limited, and it doesn’t approach a full understanding of what is actually happening.
 
Here is a paper that might be helpful in clarifying the ontological issues raised in recent posts by @Michael Allen. I'll link it below after posting the first few pages:

"Preconceptual intelligibility in perception" by Daniel Dwyer
Springer Science+Business Media Dordrecht 2014

Abstract: This paper argues that John McDowell’s conceptualism distorts a genuine phenomenological account of perception. Instead of the seemingly forced choice between conceptualism and non-conceptualism as to what accounts for perceptual and discursive meaning, I provide an argument that there is a preconceptual intelli-gibility already in the perceptual field. With the help of insights from certain non-conceptualists I sketch out an argument that there is a teleological directedness in the way in which latent order and structure can be discriminated at the level of perceptual content. This content can then be brought to discursive, conceptual clarity by understanding in such a way that it is guided by the order already discovered in perception. With the help of Husserlian phenomenology of perception, I argue that the fundamental roots of epistemic normativity lie in the discriminating intelligence or mindedness operative below the level of the explicitly conceptual. By preconceptual is meant the directedness of explication of the structures present in the sensory manifold toward fully explicit conceptual judgments.
Keywords: Perception, John McDowell, Conceptualism, Husserl, Kant

I Introduction: Conceptualism, nonconceptualism, and preconceptualism

John McDowell’s Mind and World has set the tone of the contemporary debate about whether human perception is possible only to the extent that the perceiver has acquired the appropriate conceptual capacities available to specify perceptual content. He argues that conceptual capacities are that in virtue of which sensations represent the intelligibility of the perceptual world.1 The main question in this debate is whether our perceptual discriminations outrun the recognitional categories available to us. Otherwise put, the question is whether perception is a distinct form of human intentionality different in kind from cognition, or whether it is continuous in some sense with conceptual knowledge insofar as cognitive processes in some form are actualized all the way down in passive perception. In short, are concepts relevant to the intentionality of perception and its basic world-directedness? What is at issue is whether a world-presenting passive perceptual state is of a different species from a mental state in which one actively makes conceptual distinctions, identifications, and judgments. To frame the question in the terms McDowell sets out in Mind and World, at what point in the move from (1) sensibility to (2) judgment are (3) spontaneous conceptual capacities (4) passively actualized? Conversely, at what point, if at all, does judgment as the paradigmatic case of conceptual capacities become actualized in the very act of perception? And if McDowell is prepared to recognize non-paradigmatic cases of conceptual articulation within perception, how are they to be understood?2 I argue in this paper that the four notions above remain unclear and call for phenomenological clarification broadly construed. For McDowell’s presupposed neo-Kantian interpretations of these key concepts are not sufficient to make clear how helpful his defense of intelligibility in perception in this ongoing debate really is. Furthermore, without phenomenological clarification of the Neo-Kantian roots of the debate, the views of McDowell’s nonconceptualist opponents are equally unclear insofar as they take for granted McDowell’s insufficiently elaborated neo-Kantian framework. Within this framework, according to which conceptual spontaneity and sensible receptivity remain two fundamentally different faculties, there is no room to highlight the gradual and developmental way in which conceptual capacities emerge from and are guided by higher-level perceptual discriminations. The best way to defend a limited version of conceptual content in

[1 Mark Tanzer (2005) has convincingly argued that McDowell and Heidegger come to divergent conclusions about Kant’s predicament about (non)conceptual content precisely because they each see the major unresolved problem in the first Critique as Kant’s notion of subjectivity as spontaneous receptivity.2 The influence on McDowell of Wilfrid Sellars’ inferentialist account of justification of perceptual judgments is manifestly evident all the way from McDowell (1996) to (2011). See Sellars (1997).McDowell claims that ‘‘the point of invoking spontaneity is to suggest that the paradigmatic or central cases of actualization of conceptual capacities are in judgment, and that is free, responsible cognitive activity.’’ See McDowell (2004, p. 194). Because it involves freedom and cognitive responsibility, the act of ‘‘judging can be singled out as the paradigmatic mode of actualization of conceptual capacities.’’ See McDowell (1998, p. 434). Although McDowell argues that experiences are to be modeled on acts of judgment, because they capture the synthetic togetherness of a perceptual state of affairs, he nonetheless admits that this conception ‘‘leaves room for conceptual capacities…to be actualized in non-paradigmatic ways, in kinds of occurrence other than acts of judging.’’ See McDowell (2000a: pp. 10–11) McDowell maintains that ‘‘the occurrence of an experience, on the conception I urge, is to be distinguished from the occurrence of an act of judgement, but it would be quite another matter, and quite wrong by my lights, to say that there is experience, as I conceive it, in the absence of the capacity to judge. It is a pity English has to make do here with one word, ‘judgement,’ where (German, say) has both ‘Urteil’ and ‘Urteilskraft .’’’ See McDowell (2000b, p. 335). Furthermore, the argument is such that ‘‘the paradigm exercise of a conceptual capacity is precisely the free act of judgement, and on that basis I speak, in a Kantian vein, of conceptual capacities as capacities of spontaneity. What is true…is that not all actualizations of these capacities are exercises of them.’’ (McDowell 2000b, p. 342–43).D. Dwyer 1 3
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perception, what I shall call preconceptual content, is to incorporate certain insights from the phenomenology of perception as articulated best by Husserl. Doing this will achieve two goals. First, I will show how the debate about nonconceptual content turns on the elaboration of the presence of salience and preconceptual meaning in normal, optimal, and teleologically-directed perception. Second, I will argue that the fundamental roots of epistemic normativity lie in the higher-level discriminating intelligence or mindedness operative below the level of the explicitly conceptual. I thus agree with McDowell in locating the grounds of rationality within the realm of receptive sensibility but disagree with his contention that normativity is merely a matter of the linguistic-discursive conceptualization allegedly needed to specify sensible content. In this paper, I will argue that we must understand pre-conceptual in terms of an argument, in broadly Husserlian terms, that one must consider the teleological directedness of pre-predicative grasp of objects and their properties to an eventual fulfilled judgment that discursively and fully conceptually articulates that pre-predicatively registered state of affairs. It is only by focusing on preconceptual and intelligible content in perception that we can do justice to the widest notion of intelligence and articulation implied in the phenomenological interpretation of logos, in its three related senses as discrimination, recognition, and judging. Husserl helpfully analyzes the meaning of logos from the point of view of the original meanings of the verb lego: first, a discriminative and synthetic gathering together or explicative synthesis ( zusammenlegen), second, a recognitional exposition (darle-gen), and third, the conceptual exposition by means of words in discourse.3 Thus not all registering of synthetic togetherness in the perceptual domain is an act of Kantian discursive understanding. There is a certain kind of intelligibility at play in perception that lies below the level of discursive judgment. The wrong sort of gloss on this kind of relational articulation of states of affairs is non-discursive, for in its most basic sense perception is a pre-discursive relating and explicating of states of affairs in various modes of passively synthetic combination. The emphasis on pre- as opposed to non-conceptual is straightforward: the former signifies a ‘noetic-teleological directedness’ at work when conceptual explication is guided by perceptual explication of a state of affairs. For example, the association of sensuous data in the perceptual field and the registering of homogeneity of perceptual content against a heterogeneous background are two ways in which the perceiver can detect the synthetic togetherness of perceptual phenomena, a togetherness that is not the result of Kantian synthesis performed by discursive judgment. Characterizing nonconceptual content strictly as non-objective as opposed to pre-objective, however, does not do justice to the fact that there is a developmental continuity in registering states of affairs that present themselves already from themselves in forms of synthetic togetherness. Thus, as I will argue throughout the paper, there is order in the sensory manifold, contra Kant, and the registering of this order is preconceptual, contra McDowell. This order will, furthermore, be seen to constitute what Dominique Pradelle has recently called ‘‘a sortof intelligible architectonic underlying all discursivity.’’4

[3 See Husserl (2001, p. 356, and 1978: §§1 and 3).
4 See Pradelle (2012, p. 19).]


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2 Intelligibility in perception: A phenomenological prelude

Meaning and intelligibility must be conceived as spanning the traditional divide between understanding and sensibility, between cognition and perception. This wide notion of meaning, which avoids the reduction of normative rationality to Kantian conceptual discursivity, captures both the way in which (1) the domain of the conceptual goes all the way down into perception via sedimentation and that dynamic which phenomenologists call Einstromen 5 and (2) the way in which perceptual meaning goes all the way up to conceptual articulation.6 McDowell proposes to expand the conceptual space of reasons downward to incorporate the domain of the perceptual. But we need to move in the opposite direction as well to recognize that the domain of the conceptual goes all the way up in the sense that it captures the same meaning more determinately in propositional form via judgment. The one-sided conceptualist focus on judgmental synthesis prevents us from seeing its very condition of possibility, namely, that conceptual or recognitional capacities are themselves acquired in a way that is dependent on how preconceptual discriminatory capacities can in the best cases—under normal and optimally disclosive perceptual conditions—lead to cognitive recognitional capacities. In other words, perceptual recognition can in the best cases lead to conceptual articulation. Conceptual unclarity about the givenness of a state of affairs is often a case of not having that state of affairs given to oneself with sufficient perceptual clarity. It is not that cognitive lack involves an empirical Given which fails to present itself clearly. It is rather that the mode of perceptual givenness is not optimally disclosive of the way in which things are thus and so in the world. Our perceptual sensitivity to fineness of grain in the phenomenal field is or at least can be registered in a suitable way for subsequent cognitive articulation. By thematizing this suitability condition of preconceptual content, the way in which pre-cognitive capacities are operative in motivating perceptual discrimination toward conceptual articulation can best be demonstrated. With this as yet undeveloped contribution to the debate, one can avoid the alleged forced choice between conceptualism and nonconceptualism. . . ."

[5 ‘‘Flowing-into,’’ a phenomenon described by Husserl and Merleau-Ponty to account for the way in which previous theoretical accomplishments recede into the givens of the life-world.
6Joseph Rouse in a sense rightly argues that ‘‘Perception is conceptual ‘all the way down’ only because discursive conceptualization is perceptual ‘all the way up.’’’ See Rouse (2005, pp. 38, 40 and 58).]


https://www.academia.edu/5779058/Preconceptual_intelligibility_in_perception
 
CONVERSATION WITH THREE WOMEN OF NEW ENGLAND

The mode of the person becomes the mode of the world,
For that person, and, sometimes, for the world itself.
The contents of the mind become solid show
Or almost solid seem show – the way a fly bird
Fixes itself in its inevitable bush . . .
It follows that to change modes is to change the world.

Now, you, for instance, are of this mode. You say
That in that ever-dark central, wherever it is,
In the central of earth or sky or air or thought,
There is a drop that is life’s element,
Sole, single source and minimum patriarch,
The one thing common to all life, the human
And inhuman same, the likeness of things unlike.

And you, you say that the capitol things of the mind
Should be as natural as natural objects,
So that a carved king found in a jungle, huge
And weathered, should be part of a human landscape,
That a figure reclining among columns toppled down,
Stiff in eternal lethargy, should be,
Not the beginning but the end of artifice,
A nature of marble in a marble world.

And then, finally, it is you that say
That only in man’s definitions of himself,
Only encompassed in humanity, is he
Himself. The author of man’s canons is man,
Not some outer patron and imaginer.

In which one of these three worlds are the four of us
The most at home? Or is it enough to have seen
And felt and known the differences we have seen
And felt and known in the colors in which we live,

In the excellences of the air we breathe,
The bouquet of being – enough to realize
That the sense of being changes as we talk,
That talk shifts the cycles of the scenes of kings?

Wallace Stevens
 
“Ai researcher Joscha Bach has a similar view, one that’s a bit more radical than that if i understand correctly. He says that we’ve arrived at a point in our scientific endeavor where we are attempting to understand consciousness, but "we’re trying to reduce mind to an abstraction of mind". What we call "matter" is just a representation that’s computationally generated, representation who’s nature is far removed from that of the "outside" conditions. In his opinion, the outside reality cannot even be said to possess Galileo’s primary qualities. Nobody can ever say how reality looks (as in primary and secondary qualities) because "looking” is a property of the internal computational model.”


Seems to have some wildly delicious things to say. Haven’t had a chance to read any essays yet.
 
Over the past year or so I have been looking for a paragraph from a paper about Kant in which Kant articulated something like the above. And in a very clever way. I even emailed the author but to no avail.

It was something along the lines of “human vision isn’t a process by which we look onto the world but rather bring forth something new into the world.”

If you haven't already, you might enjoy Dreyfuss on Merleau-Ponty:


I posted a while back.

His interpretation of Merleau-Ponty and Heidegger might be interesting to you, it's not for everyone, but his talk of "skilled coping" I think relates to what you post here.

 
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If you haven't already, you might enjoy Dreyfuss on Merleau-Ponty:


I posted a while back.

His interpretation of Merleau-Ponty and Heidegger might be interesting to you, it's not for everyone, but his talk of "skilled coping" I think relates to what you post here.

I just stumbled upon this. I do want to read it and should but it’s low on the list. Maybe you could be so kind as to speed read it and give us the highlights? :praying hands:

 
EM wavelength between 590-625 nm

neural spikes trains

phenomenal orange

Which of these is most likely to be actual?
“Solving the mind body problem does not involve understanding the relationship between two physical entities, but between two mental models, and requires modeling how the mind forms these models and the relationship between them.“ Joscha Bach
 
“Solving the mind body problem does not involve understanding the relationship between two physical entities, but between two mental models, and requires modeling how the mind forms these models and the relationship between them.“ Joscha Bach

Bach's ideas might be useful for us to take up and discuss. I'll read the linked essays toward that end.
 
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