Bill Maher on Jesus Camp

[mattdeacon]

I'm not usually one to stir the pot, however, I read this once.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

...

Even Jesus was purported as saying "A wise man builds his house upon a rock."

yup, and if the religion is proven to be false, then it wasn't a rock, now, was it? I am going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that every religion can be proven to be false. The solid rock, to me, is faith.

Faith and religion are entirely different from each other. What I understand of religion is like this: Religion is a set system of observing rituals that pay homage to what your faith determines is your god. You are instructed in these observances, and if you do not adhere to them, you are considered not of the religion and may be banned, or excommunicated from your group.

Religion is determined by men/women who decide what they consider to be the best way to prove adoration of the god chosen by their religion.

The more I learn about religion, the less I like it, and I absolutely abhore blind obedience to it. But I am determined that others should come to that decision on their own. If it doesn't cause harm to you or others, let it be.

Make fun of something that deserves to be held up to ridicule: People earning obscene amounts of money for driving their country into financial ruin, distracting the masses with bread and circuses to keep their focus off what is happening in front of them; having widespread and immediate coverage of the latest bit of celebrity meltdown instead of covering issues that matter, like homelessness, child poverty around the world - issues that need addressing with all that wasted money.

As for bashing all religions with impunity, what I have seen up here is not quite as you say; bash on the religious beliefs of Muslims or Jews (another two of the more popular religions people love to hate), and you may wind up in court facing a hate crime charge, or a human rights tribunal, not to mention civil lawsuits that could wind up costing you your entire life's worth of accumulated assets such as your home, savings, etc.

If you protect one, you must protect all. Anything less is not acceptable. But then, who decides which religion is worthy? Which is legitimate? What are the standards of legitimacy? Worthiness?

See how that is left so open to interpretation of whoever is at the top of the monkey bars at the time.

Faith is a personal issue, and that cannot be dictated to by anyone else, cannot be regulated, cannot be taken from you.

Which is the rock? Which is ephemeral?

 

[AnnetteMarie]

I'm not usually one to stir the pot, however, I read this once.

I was thinking about her earlier, and was contemplating a post that posited even she could be held up as something nasty if you looked hard enough, but in the end, the actions would be the proof as they speak louder than words, non? I think perhaps a better tell would be if the world is better off for her presence, than it would be for her absence.

 

[bsvalley]

Well, if this is the way the "argument" usually goes for you, have you considered that maybe you're talking to the WRONG people?! Or, maybe it's something you're bringing to the table that's spoiling things--attitudes and prejudices that are influencing you to do or say unhelpful things. You might be the one who steers the discussion in an unproductive direction. Nothing personal--I don't know anything about you--just something to consider, if you're seeing a pattern.

I do see a pattern here. I'm not trying to convert anyone to an agnostic life style. Or do I care if they are religous. But on the other hand every "born again Christian" Is like deeply ofended if I haven't accepted Christ into my heart, life and teach it to my kids so they can mindlessly follow instead of study.

This whole question is really not that complicated. If I want to truly come to understand a religious persuasion, to "analyze" it, as Maher is supposedly so adept at doing, I'm going to do some INTELLIGENT research. I'm not going to ferret out every weird deviant individual or sect of the religion and put them on TV to make fun of and use to defame the religion as a whole.

So you are saying that the Vadican contains weird deviant individuals?
Because if you've seen it, he trys to go there also.

I'm going to find out who the religion's greatest thinkers were and study as best I can what they wrote and what scholars have to say about them. I'm going to find out who the preeminent modern thinkers are and study them the best I can. If it's Catholicism--Maher's favorite punching bag--I'm going to keep up on what the Pope is writing and give those works the consideration they deserve.

Why is it that the things they speak of have to revolve around religion, and is it possible that some of the things they say and "think" are just right because they are right and not because they believe some devine power was aparently thinking it over one day and decided these things were good and thought enough of us to swoop down and share?

And I'm going to make the move from the head to the heart, looking at who that religion considers to be its greatest saints: the individuals who most heroically put the faith into concrete, daily practice.

I agree with this except that in order to care about this stuff you have to believe in it. So there in lyes the problem. If we don't believe I feel like this is the conversation that ensues. "We have this saint and that saint and you shoud study till you believe,,,,, thump. thump. Because unless you believe , just being a good person won't get you to heaven and next to "MY GOD".

Then, being a real analyst, I'm going to talk about those scholars and saints with my audience, what they proposed, what kind of example they set, where I disagree and where I agree. And I'd throw in a wacko every now and then, too, to provide some contrast.

As apposed to every pastor, priest, Rabbi, that would get up before their congregation and preach exactly The same Type of message in a different package. "His way is the only Way" Except none of them really know, but they all assume that their religion is the only way to heaven.

Of course not. That would be like expecting a Holocaust denier to spend time really studying the work of bona fide historians, and listening to people who had actually experienced German concentration camps during WWII, people who KNOW what they're talking about. But that wouldn't support the Holocaust denier in his extreme prejudice and self-deception. Instead, he'd spend his time with other deniers, and they'd continue to fixate on every hoaxed Holocaust memoir they could find, and cite examples of debunked Holocaust myths and bogus "scientific" studies that find no "evidence" of gas chambers or ash heaps, and of course decry Israel for committing "crimes against humanity," etc.

Please tell me you are not comparing the last 150 years of written history to storys in the Bible that were not even wrote down until 1000 years after they supposedly happened, by people with psycological problems and or vendetas.

They would continue on this course until something broke in from the outside to change the direction of their stubborn minds.

... yet another contribution to this elevated "analysis" of religion and faith. **sigh :frown:

Again. the word of the day. "FAITH" used by religions to elicite a reaction from people that would normaly "THINK".

I wonder what you or Maher have to say about this lady ...

[/quote]
She is someone whom I believe even with out religion would give of her self because it was the right thing to do. There are hundreds if not thousands of people who give of themselves every day just like she does.
But they don't wear the rosary beads down their sides. So what is your point? With out religion we stupid humans would just never know right from wrong.? We would just let little kids go hungry? Just because Bill Mahre or I don't believe the same way you do does not make you right. Bill Mahre is just one voice trying to talk above a field that has been continuously shoving belife down the throats of who ever will listen for years. Why are you so offended when the voice you hear isn't your own.

Why don't you do a little studing the other way. I have already read the good book and done my time in church and sunday school and confirmation.
Yet I was able to learn about other religions without forming an opinion about who was right or wrong, or if there even is a right or wrong answer on the subject.
Bill Mahres point is simply this.
It's fine to believe what you want, don't shove it down his throat because guess what? Not every one believes it.
But that's ok, We live in America. And we don't even have to talk about it if we don't want to.
We just choose to.

 

[David Biedny]

In this history of this species, organized religion has done far more damage than good, and it doesn't take a genius to argue this point. You want to believe in your specific imaginary friend, fine, but the moment you start to believe that others who don't share your belief, are somehow not as good as you, or are doomed, well, that's when you've lost it, and my respect. If I had a penny for every person who has died in the name of someone's god, I'd be the richest man in history. What a sad fact.

dB

 

[Ezechiel]

In this history of this species, organized religion has done far more damage than good, and it doesn't take a genius to argue this point. You want to believe in your specific imaginary friend, fine, but the moment you start to believe that others who don't share your belief, are somehow not as good as you, or are doomed, well, that's when you've lost it, and my respect. If I had a penny for every person who has died in the name of someone's god, I'd be the richest man in history. What a sad fact.
dB

A good analogy in ufology, look at Shostak and his church of S.E.T.I.

By being blind to near-earth phenomenons, he's driving everybody here crazy

He knows he can't open up the NORAD files to investigate or even get funding to build concurrent near-earth sky scanning technology... why ? political considerations ? National security ?

If you think about it, our planet, potentially the only one with a working eco-system (apart from perhaps Europa), is a hell of a lot more interesting to advanced alien civilizations. To ignore that premise in favor of a centrist view that we are the top dog in the galaxy is incredibly pretentious. Thus, I conclude , that S.E.T.I. is a branch of some kind of 'intelligent design' movement.

If I were a gambling man, I'd put my two cents on the possibility that faith-based initiatives are helping to push near-earth investigations out of our reach.

 

[Artyom]

Don't dismiss the personality component so quickly, Ezechiel. You see, Bill Maher... is an asshole. I mean it, the guy's a complete asshole. And the thing is, I agree with about 80% of what he says but he's SUCH an asshole that it makes the message hard to hear. That's why I don't get it when I hear liberals place him next to guys like Jon Stewart. What?!

Stewart's a genius. Maher IS AN ASSHOLE. They literally couldn't be further apart, metaphorically.

Ok...why? Haircut / the way he talks / not enough bold in his statements / too much bold in his statements / not kosher enough ? I'm asking sitting in literally other part of the world, too far from US to have any prejudges.

 

[Artyom]

You talking about religulous or the doc in the vid?

I loled at the part in Religulous where they showed a suicide bomber flying through the air after the comment that preacher with all the bling talked about channeling romantic passion toward christ. Those idiots think they'll get 100 virgins or something like that.

The doc didn't anger me as much as I thought it would. Guess because Bill was there to make sense and make them look like the idiots they are. I've watched it twice already and loved it. If anyone knows of another documentary like that let me know.

I've watched it several times and feel sad that I can't share it with locals party due a language barrier and partly to religion believes and unwilling to think out of the box for even a millisecond.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

Maher is among the walking dead. Leave him.

He is a zombie, like so many of us.

 

[CarnbY]

I was going to write a response to jpw.in.wi's demented blabbering, but it would just take too long...

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want, whether it's that pink elephants live on the moon, that Billy Meier is the real deal, or that the bible is the word of God. But when they start spouting their beliefs as truth, and pushing it on others, they better damn well prepare to be ridiculed into oblivion!

 

[AnnetteMarie]

I was going to write a response to jpw.in.wi's demented blabbering, but it would just take too long...

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want, whether it's that pink elephants live on the moon, that Billy Meier is the real deal, or that the bible is the word of God. But when they start spouting their beliefs as truth, and pushing it on others, they better damn well prepare to be ridiculed into oblivion!

okay, that is where it gets silly. I don't consider a reasoned debate, which is how I see jpw.in.wi's posts, to be demented blabbering, or proselytizing. He is stating what he believes.

Seriously. It causes no harm to you or me, he is not insisting we cash in our savings, sell the farm and hand over the cash so we can work in his tower 90 hours a week and sell books on the street on sunny days.

When we start being afraid of debate and feel an urge to resort to means other than a reasoned reply, then we need to look at our own system of beliefs.

Any belief or opinion that cannot withstand reasoned argument and debate, is not very strong. That goes for faith, too. The more secure you are in your opinions and beliefs, the less you worry about debate and arguments over it.

That is my opinion.

There is a place for ridicule, and what a person believes is not my favourite place to spark a laugh. I have done it, but afterwards always felt like I have let myself down.

 

[CarnbY]

To me, calling it "demented blabbering" is just a more flavorful way of saying "I strongly disagree", but whatever...

He equates Maher's disgust of religion/Christianity with racism. First of all, being a Christian is a choice, you do not choose your race. Second, there is nothing wrong with being of one race or the other, but you can certainly make the point that being a Christian makes you an idiot.

Then just because Ezechiel called the clip an "analysis" of religions, jpw starts blabbering away about how to do a proper analysis of the finer points of religion, like that's in any way relevant. Regarding the positive sides of religion, it always irks me how Christians act like they have a patent on benevolence, and if Jesus hadn't come around everyone would be acting like barbarians. Just another example of their extreme arrogance.

There's nothing wrong with being a spiritual person, but when childish superstition is held in as high regard as it is in American society, I'm glad someone like Bill Maher is there to go "wait a minute, are you fucking kidding me?!". To people like jpw.in.wi, that apparently makes him equatable to a nazi...

 

[AnnetteMarie]

but you can certainly make the point that being a Christian makes you an idiot.

No, it doesn't. There are many people in this world who consider themselves Christian, and they cannot all be called idiots.

A generalized statement such as yours does not promote any debate or discussion in the least. Sharing opinions and ideas could easily be the first step towards gaining knowledge, but if the book is covered in barbs and spines, who wants to open it?

 

[Ezechiel]

Then just because Ezechiel called the clip an "analysis" of religions, jpw starts blabbering away about how to do a proper analysis of the finer points of religion, like that's in any way relevant.

You're right !, its more a personal conclusion (after analysis ).

..but you can certainly make the point that being a Christian makes you an idiot.

LOL, when it takes you 450 years to acknowledge Gallileo... is idiot the right word

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13618460.600-vatican-admits-galileo-was-right-.html

 

[CarnbY]

My point is that criticizing a person for his/her beliefs is valid, while criticizing a persons physical/genetic attributes is not. jpw seems to equate the two.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

My point is that criticizing a person for his/her beliefs is valid, while criticizing a persons physical/genetic attributes is not. jpw seems to equate the two.

My point is whatever you wrap that criticism in will dictate whether you are listened to, or not.