Barack Obama,,

[bergle]

HEY ISNT THERE A COURTESY RULE ABOUT ONE LINERS GETTING OUT OF HAND?
DO YOU GUYS THINK OBLAMA IS THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS?
sOMEHOW, I HAVE A NASTY FEELING THAT THERE HASNT BEEN A GOOD PRESIDENT SINCE DWIGHT EISENHAUER,AND HE WAS NOT ALL THAT GREAT EITHER....
EVER NOTICE HOW THE "GREAT"POLITICIANS END THEIR CARREERS WITH A WARNING ABOUT HOW CORRUPT THE GOVERMENT IS OR HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME, BUT WHILE THEY ARE SERVING THERES NEVER A WHISPER OF THAT FROM THEIR LIPS?
IF YOU LOOK AT HITLERY, THEN YOUVE GOT TO LOOK AT WHITE WATER.....LOTS OF SKELETONS, AND BODIES THERE....
MCcAIN IS A REPEAT OF WHAT WE GOT NOW....
RON PAUL IS A DEAD MYTH....A DISTRACTION REALLY....I THINK.....
THAT LEAVES AN UNKNOWN QUANTITY,......
YOU KNOW THATS WHY I HAVE THIS FEELING ITLL BE DADDY MC cAIN.
THERES LOTS OFG TIME FOR ALL KINDS OF FEARFUL CIRCUMSTANCES TO CROP UP TO SEND THE RABBLE SCURRYING FOR THE NEOCON UMBRELLA....
LOT OF TIME FOR SEVERAL HEAVEY POSSIBILITIES....
BERGLE

 

[cottonzway]

HEY ISNT THERE A COURTESY RULE ABOUT ONE LINERS GETTING OUT OF HAND?
DO YOU GUYS THINK OBLAMA IS THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS?
sOMEHOW, I HAVE A NASTY FEELING THAT THERE HASNT BEEN A GOOD PRESIDENT SINCE DWIGHT EISENHAUER,AND HE WAS NOT ALL THAT GREAT EITHER....
EVER NOTICE HOW THE "GREAT"POLITICIANS END THEIR CARREERS WITH A WARNING ABOUT HOW CORRUPT THE GOVERMENT IS OR HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME, BUT WHILE THEY ARE SERVING THERES NEVER A WHISPER OF THAT FROM THEIR LIPS?
IF YOU LOOK AT HITLERY, THEN YOUVE GOT TO LOOK AT WHITE WATER.....LOTS OF SKELETONS, AND BODIES THERE....
MCcAIN IS A REPEAT OF WHAT WE GOT NOW....
RON PAUL IS A DEAD MYTH....A DISTRACTION REALLY....I THINK.....
THAT LEAVES AN UNKNOWN QUANTITY,......
YOU KNOW THATS WHY I HAVE THIS FEELING ITLL BE DADDY MC cAIN.
THERES LOTS OFG TIME FOR ALL KINDS OF FEARFUL CIRCUMSTANCES TO CROP UP TO SEND THE RABBLE SCURRYING FOR THE NEOCON UMBRELLA....
LOT OF TIME FOR SEVERAL HEAVEY POSSIBILITIES....
BERGLE

McCain is going to get F'd in the A by Obama.

Obama will be our next president barring death or something totally outragous that it can't be explained.

Ron Paul was our best shot, and he is not a distraction. He was the only person who directly addressed the two primary issues that would/could lead to the situations I talked about. Foreign policy and monetary policy. We done fucked up. So McCain is going to rep the fake right and get his clock cleaned by Obama in the process. Way to go, dumb America.

PS....

Please kill the CAP LOCKS. Thank you.

 

[bergle]

Is there some custom about caps im not conversant with?why the dig ?
iI hope yer not insulted, im sure yer not hard of hearing...
I find it easier to type the caps than find my glasses sometimes...beg yer pardon.
What makes you so sure the circumstances cannot be manipulated in order to swing a planned candidate?
The whole country sat by and let the florida voting machines decide the election once.....
What about a iran attack?new 9/11?or other false flag attack ?
Maybe the results would be swung over to the hawks just enough....
goombye obama....
Lats face it theres no comparison here for a father figure, and i dont think you can sell this guy as a warrior....
That leaves McCain again...
The whole middle east is on alert right now...lebanon,Hezbullah,IDF,Syrian forces,Hamas,Fatah,Iran, Iraq,
the saudis doing nuke readyness drills, the isrealis just into the biggest drill theyve ever had....
The Fuse could get lit in all kinds of ways...
We know they arent above killing off a few thousand people to get started...
This time i expect a whole small town in the mid west will have to go....
Topeka or scranton or whatever....BOOM!
martial law....and a awayee they gooo!

 

[CapnG]

Caps Lock is considered rude anywhere on the net, not just here, bergle. Just FYI.

Ron Paul is a politician. If you think he is somehow better or more worthy than other candidates then you're a fool. He has his agendas and his own hidden masters just like Obama, McCain, Hillary, Bush and every other politician everywhere. Assuming even for a second Paul's platform was an honest one, his back-to-gold/turtle-America plan was never going to work... EVER. The corporate-owned congress and the rest of the planet would never allow it.

Ron Paul is rightly compared to the founding fathers only in so much as his thinking is 300 years out of date. Of course the people I really feel for are those dumb enough to have contributed to his campaign. Good job, suckers! I'm sure he'll be thinking of you when he spends it on a new house, bigger office, new car, new boat...

 

[bergle]

Hey, i like yer candor Capn...

I think about the same thing with regards politicians and their agendas......
All hornswoggle, and misdirection......with little regard for anything but their own enrichment or ego inflation.
I personally wouldnt be interested in buying a used car from any of the presidential noms...
Unfortunately ONE (excuse my caps)will be elected whether anyone likes it er not! This fact leaves the choice of the lesser of evils...
One need not vote, but that is tanamount to giving up the only voice we have...
such as it is....
What then?
Election or no election at all, i believe that the agendas of the elite would still be furthered in the way they desire...
Im thinking there has to be a level which this whole thing can be opposed on, but the only level they havent totally blocked is the spiritual one...
Therefore i propose that we must oppose them spiritually(whatever that may mean.....)
The physical constraints under which any pther form of resistance can be mounted are formidable...they have the guns and the boys to use thenm too.
They have the entire force of this system at their disposal.
The one thing they do not have is the spiritual power to pull off world domination, should the mass of the people oppose tham on that level.
To me, every other avenue seems cut off.We need another Mahatma Ghandi...
bergle

 

[cottonzway]

Caps Lock is considered rude anywhere on the net, not just here, bergle. Just FYI.

Ron Paul is a politician. If you think he is somehow better or more worthy than other candidates then you're a fool. He has his agendas and his own hidden masters just like Obama, McCain, Hillary, Bush and every other politician everywhere. Assuming even for a second Paul's platform was an honest one, his back-to-gold/turtle-America plan was never going to work... EVER. The corporate-owned congress and the rest of the planet would never allow it.

Ron Paul is rightly compared to the founding fathers only in so much as his thinking is 300 years out of date. Of course the people I really feel for are those dumb enough to have contributed to his campaign. Good job, suckers! I'm sure he'll be thinking of you when he spends it on a new house, bigger office, new car, new boat...

*Doesn't feel like a sucker for donating money to Ron Paul and voting for him in the PA primaries a few hours ago*

The thing is I've also supported Kucinich, Gravel, and also Cyhthia McKinney. Why? None of them are CFR members and all of them are very vocal against the illegal military occupation that we have going on now.

Any of those 4 would have been fine with me. I support Paul as the primary guy I wanted in there because of his deep understanding of monetary policy. His points about a gold standard may be the only point you are understanding about his economic views and his flat out courage to take on the FED, IMF, the international Central Banks, Bernanke/Paulson, and the entire system we have for currency. We are as a country totally insolvent. Not broke, not in debt, but totally bankrupt and insolvent. That his foreign policy views that I share are why I support him.

Now, about those points I made yesterday and you said how they would be a "paranoid delusion" on a global economic meltdown, WW III and the fall of what we know to be the USA (in the current state). Can you explain your quick, judgemental reply to that or do you not consider these as possibilities if our military and money directions are addressed ASAP?

 

[CapnG]

Now, about those points I made yesterday and you said how they would be a "paranoid delusion" on a global economic meltdown, WW III and the fall of what we know to be the USA (in the current state). Can you explain your quick, judgemental reply to that or do you not consider these as possibilities if our military and money directions are addressed ASAP?

Okay. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes at this point, if those things are going to happen then the dice are already rolling. The identity of the person sitting in the big chair on Jan 1 '09 will have ZERO impact on those things (if indeed they are going to happen). Not one of the three will have the support necessary to rally the nation behind anything simply because no one can clean up the mess left by Bush administration and any attempt to do so will be way too little and entirely too damn late.

However, what I find interesting is that you associate those three things automatically. Did it ever occur to you that the end of the USA as you know it may not in fact result in global economic meltdown and WW3 but merely with America slipping down a peg on the global roster?
Many nations have dropped the greenback in favour of the Euro as a bulwark against the meltdown you describe and as for WW3, well I ain't signing up any time soon and if they start throwing nukes around, well we won't be here to debate it so there's not much point in getting worked up over that.

Incidently, I apologize if you felt offended by my earlier remarks but face the facts: Ron Paul was never going to be president. You should have spent your donation money on lottery tickets, at least then you might have gotten SOMETHING for your trouble...

 

[cottonzway]

Now, about those points I made yesterday and you said how they would be a "paranoid delusion" on a global economic meltdown, WW III and the fall of what we know to be the USA (in the current state). Can you explain your quick, judgemental reply to that or do you not consider these as possibilities if our military and money directions are addressed ASAP?

Okay. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes at this point, if those things are going to happen then the dice are already rolling. The identity of the person sitting in the big chair on Jan 1 '09 will have ZERO impact on those things (if indeed they are going to happen). Not one of the three will have the support necessary to rally the nation behind anything simply because no one can clean up the mess left by Bush administration and any attempt to do so will be way too little and entirely too damn late.

However, what I find interesting is that you associate those three things automatically. Did it ever occur to you that the end of the USA as you know it may not in fact result in global economic meltdown and WW3 but merely with America slipping down a peg on the global roster?
Many nations have dropped the greenback in favour of the Euro as a bulwark against the meltdown you describe and as for WW3, well I ain't signing up any time soon and if they start throwing nukes around, well we won't be here to debate it so there's not much point in getting worked up over that.

Incidently, I apologize if you felt offended by my earlier remarks but face the facts: Ron Paul was never going to be president. You should have spent your donation money on lottery tickets, at least then you might have gotten SOMETHING for your trouble...

You don’t have to apologize. I understand what you were trying to say. We just disagree.

I don’t really consider that the US can fall do it losing by getting “knocked down a peg” because the entire global financial system is dependant upon the dollar. That is rather frightening when you think about it. Sure, countries all over the world are slowly (and wisely) dumping the dollar. If the dollar totally falls in a shorter period of time without the whole world securing themselves from it’s collapse it alone will bring the points I mentioned. WW III.

A scenario where we could have WW III would not (hopefully) deal with nuclear weapons though. At first any kind of war of that scale would be an economic war, one that no doubt is going on now already but at a controlled pace as to keep the floor from falling out. I would be more concerned with famine, disease, and loss of communications over a single bullet coming from Russia or China, let along a nuke. Quiet frankly, I don’t think another country would even bother to launch a nuclear missile as I feel we have that aspect covered (thank you, Tesla) and they know it would be futile. Nukes are a boogeyman now IMO.

I got a lot for my money donating it to Paul and the others (yes I did send a few bucks to the others I mentioned) by keeping alive the campaign of people who were forcing the media to cover them and pulling in people who listened to their views and no longer felt alone. Someone with a similar voice. That the country isn’t dead and Americans are aware of the situation we face. I take about a 20 mile drive to work and on the way there and back I see no less then 30 Ron Paul signs still up. Huge ones that small business owners (3 different places on my route to work) display and obviously have not had their businesses effected in a negative manner because many people agree with Paul, Kucinich, Gravel, and McKinney that we need to CHANGE what is going on and by change I don’t mean the meaningless slogan that fraud Obama uses to his cult members. I felt good yesterday voting in the PA primaries for Ron Paul. I’ll feel even better when I switch back to an Independent because I had to switch over to the Republican Party in order to vote for Paul though I will no doubt write him in in the general election. Ron Paul and a few others have woken up millions of people and given them the hope that they are not alone in their disgust of what has been going on. In a time of desperation for my country and for the free world I take a lot from knowing I am not alone and if this country falls there are people there to rebuild it. You can’t buy that and you can’t measure it in winning an election.

 

[The Hawk]

As many Obama supporters look kind of crazy..
I will also leave a disclaimer about my candidate.
Ron Paul..

We are the most fanatical (and many are proud of it).

I'd like to admit;
his supporters do look like lunatics to some.
I say: "So what if we look crazy?"

Judge by the person/philosophy/text not the supporter. Judging anything even a religion by the people in it and not the foundations and the teachings themselves is ridiculous and pathetic. ..for obvious reasons if you think about it.

Many of us (me included) can act quite disgruntled when encountering people who would lower Ron Paul to the level of the average politician. ..and that makes many of us look bad sometimes.

I think this disgruntled attitude has come from a built up disgust many of us have with the philosophies and political motivations at work across the world and in the United States. This is especially true for us more Libertarian minded individuals who hold Liberty as something as important as water and as scarce as platinum.

In my view the large majority of politicians in the Republican and Democratic party don't stand for anything.
In mainstream politics there is Ron Paul and there is everyone else.
It's night and day.
His positions are certainly not 100% consistent but they are mostly consistent and his philosophy is almost 100% consistent.

The average politician or human being for that matter is far less consistent in their actions. And far, far, far less consistent in their philosophy. It's so painfully obvious I feel like slapping people and screaming "look!" to those who can't see it. Mike Gravel or Kucinich amazing people; but their consistency is met with deeply flawed philosophical inconsistency. They own little moral high ground in contrast with Ron Paul.

Let me spell it out:
Social rights do not exist there are only individual rights.
If social rights have some divine place in the scheme of things..
It's irrelevant. Because no one can prove it.
However individual inalienable rights are (in part) provable beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Liberty is above all the sovereignty of the individual; to recognize that only you own you; only others own themselves
..Hence the Libertarian says : therefore the initiation of force by individual, organization or state is to be unsought.

The true anarchist may say the same thing, but they will also say governments can't work.
If a government "works" is a very subjective thing.

One can't stand strong for liberty and promote the use of unprovoked government force.
It's IMPOSSIBLE.

I don't think the average person has much faith at all in this philosophy they don't see it as practical. Even if it wasn't practical I would promote it but.. it is however extremely practical and the people of the Mises Institute and Lew Rockwell have proven it well.

Call us a cult.
See if I care.
..a cult of freedom.

 

[CapnG]

Let me spell it out:
Social rights do not exist there are only individual rights.
If social rights have some divine place in the scheme of things..
It's irrelevant. Because no one can prove it.

That's BS and I can prove it right now: Social rights exist if we agree that they do. That's what having a society means. And not only is that fact NOT irrelevant, it's a notion as inherent to the survival of humanity as breathing. You wanna be "totally free"? Be my guest, go build a cabin in the middle of nowhere and live out your little Deliverence fantansies.

 

[The Hawk]

Let me spell it out:
Social rights do not exist there are only individual rights.
If social rights have some divine place in the scheme of things..
It's irrelevant. Because no one can prove it.

That's BS and I can prove it right now: Social rights exist if we agree that they do. That's what having a society means. And not only is that fact NOT irrelevant, it's a notion as inherent to the survival of humanity as breathing. You wanna be "totally free"? Be my guest, go build a cabin in the middle of nowhere and live out your little Deliverence fantansies.

You don't get it.
I'm talking inalienable rights.
Rights that exist not because we agree as a society to create group privileges (social "rights"), but because they are inherent to reality, incorruptible, unchangeable by the whims of government.
Group rights are not immutable they are a social contract to grant privileges to a certain group or groups.
It is inherent to reality that you are you and own you.
If someone dictates by their will or the will of the masses that you should die or that you are now the possession of another,
they have no ethical basis or inalienable right to do this.
You have the right to your existence.
Does that mean that through this one has the right to take from others to continue their existence?
No it does not because a libertarian can agree that others have existence, therefore their own inalienable rights.
To some small extent Americans still understand this in some small way, but that has been fading for a very long time.
I can go into this at length about the animal versus human, and eat-to-live aspect of this but that's a little beyond the scope of the conversation.

 

[cottonzway]

As many Obama supporters look kind of crazy..
I will also leave a disclaimer about my candidate.
Ron Paul..

That is a fair statement, however when I make the comment about "cult members" I am doing so because so many of his supporters speak in slogan rather then having a clue about his voting record.

Ask your regular Obama support why they support him and you will get back a slogan of "change" and they will even get in a "yes we can" kind of comment. You ask them why they are against the war and they are supporting someone who voted to fund the war, along with voting YES for the Patroit Act, and why he takes money from AIPAC they just look at you with a blank stare, or why he made deep threats to invade Pakistan to get "9/11 terrorists" while having a lunatic who is paranoid about Russia who is a hawk as a foreign policy advisor (Zbig) they just look at you with a blank stare.

If you ask your average Ron Paul supporter the same questions you get a conversation in return with information why they support him rather then mindless slogans.

 

[UBERDOINK]

VOTE McCain!!! everyone else is concentrated evil, he's the lesser evil. He also wants to build more nuke power plants, which is cool.

 

[CapnG]

It is inherent to reality that you are you and own you.

Well that's a matter of persepective. Admittedly it's a bit woo-woo but these are the paracast forums so notions like reality being a gigantic simulation or us merely being animals in some sort of cosmic zoo are not to be discounted. We THINK we own ourselves. Whether or not we actually do remains outside our absolute knowledge.

If someone dictates by their will or the will of the masses that you should die or that you are now the possession of another, they have no ethical basis or inalienable right to do this.

If acting alone, no. If we as a society have elected them and granted them that power by our collective will then they do.

You have the right to your existence.

Again, I THINK I do. I don't actually know for sure.

Does that mean that through this one has the right to take from others to continue their existence?

Yes, if we as a society have collectively agreed to do so.

Libertarians always seem to frame this argument in the context of dicatators executing civillians for attempting to rebel or some other overly romanticized notion of freedom. What about in the context of a jury rendering a verdict of guilty to a murderer thus sentencing him to death? Are you going to get your hackles up about that because someone else has sought to take away his right to exist? I highly doubt it.

 

[The Hawk]

"I think therefore I am."
It's the only thing a person can know with absolute certainty is that they are.
Some people misinterpret this statement as: Thinking means you exist.
What it means is: I am aware of being aware, therefore this I know.

I don't know about you but by this I also know I own myself..

And for me it is plain to see that it is wrong if the masses render me guilty if I am not, regardless of their collective will.
I can't know if I'm in some simulation or a cosmic zoo and quite frankly it wouldn't matter whatsoever to my argument I am still sovereign unto myself alone.
But as a Libertarian minded person I take the courtesy of noticing that others own themselves as well.
And this is how Liberty works.

If cultures continue to see the collective will to mean more than the individual and I fear humanity is doomed because there is no sin that can't be rationalized for the perceived "common good". Under Libertarianism a person can't rationalize squat that would doom humanity.
Sure they can twist the perceived principles of Liberty into something else as all philosophies are twisted but it's far less easily corruptible than most philosophies of this nature IMO. Opinions.. opinions..
But it is no opinion that I own myself.
It is a fact.

 

[CapnG]

And for me it is plain to see that it is wrong if the masses render me guilty if I am not, regardless of their collective will.

And again you distort the point to suit your own views. What if you were guilty? You see at it's foundation it's not about broad concepts such as freedom and liberty at all, it's about YOU, the individual. This is why I have so much trouble with libertarians, it's a philosophy that masqurades as one of self-reliance and individuality but at it's core rests in paranoia, pettiness, self-interest and greed. "I got mine, fuck everyone else." Ebineezer Scrooge is the libertarian's patron saint.

Humanity is weak. A few individuals are capable of looking after themselves, the rest cannot and need to be tended to. That is reality. Thus societies MUST exist for the species to survive. That is history. In order to maintain societies, laws must exist. For laws to exist, we must each agree to abide to certain restrictions. That means giving up percieved freedoms. In truth 99% of the time no real impositions of consequence are made and the many benefits outweigh those loses.

But it is no opinion that I own myself. It is a fact.

No, it's a preferential way of thinking. It has no bearing on the ultimate reality of whether or not anyone owns you. My cat probably thinks she owns herself but that doesn't make it so.

 

[cottonzway]

VOTE McCain!!! everyone else is concentrated evil, he's the lesser evil. He also wants to nuke more power plants, which is cool.

*Fixed

 

[CapnG]

VOTE McCain!!! everyone else is concentrated evil, he's the lesser evil. He also wants to nuke more power plants, which is cool.

*Fixed

Heh. Uberdoink was correct though, McCain has fully endorsed the construction of more nuclear power plants. That his solution to the energy crisis. His only solution, in fact. Too bad we can't hook up our cars to the grid...

 

[bergle]

Yeesh, you guys,,to yer corners.....
The truth of it is hard to discern at times,
I think it is a good idea to look at the man before he became candidate....
What kind of men were either Obama or Ron paul?
What did they do as men, and citizens ?Businessmen, etc.
What is myth and what is history?
Mc Cain is pretty well a status quo for more of what we got.....
But either of these guys pose an unknown quantity...
Ron Paul may be easier to make a guess or two about but outside of the states, nobodys ever heard of Obama till the primaries.....
The focus of the electioneering seems vague and rather more fluffy than an observer would expect to see...
The real issues that are going to be burning hot potatoes soon are hardly discussed......
Some very hard facts are not in the agenda for debate.
Mostly from out here ( Canada) forgive a euphemism but it looks like a real dog and pony show......
Perhaps you think we outsiders have no stake in whats going down, but the matter is much the opposite, and many many people await the outcome with a great deal of reality based concern.
The new SPP and other situations make this a crucial election for us too.......

From here it seems that the leadership of America is hell bent on destroying her in every concievable way.
Monetarily, the solutions offered to the various crises has been to the detriment of the nation, and its ordinary people.
The only ones who seem to keep benefitting from the goverments policies,is the very rich and powerful.The corporations.and their top employee strata.
Everyone else and i do mean everyone else, is getting the stinky end of the shaft.......
For me, it has become very obvious that the democratic goverments of the "free"world, have been infiltrated and taken over by the corporate elite, and the rich.(mostly the same group anyway.)
The time when the goverments acted as a check to the corporate pillaging of the populace,is past and gone....The tune is written and called by these amoral selfaggrandizing psychopathic madmen, to whom only greed and power speak.
Will any election held in any free country be a fair and representative process?
My answer is not any more....maybe never again........
One can waste a lot of his essence in going down the well trod,(and booby trapped)pathways of governance,but we need fast and right answers more desperately every passing day.!
Still the powers that be spend their efforts to feather their own nests and each others, while the whole damn tree is ready to topple from its own rotten wieght.
Talk about fiddle while rome burned,
Or orders from the fuerher bunker to armies long destroyed or inneffective.......It seems like the entire population of the US is living in a dream state, while bad men drive the nation deliberately into a slow motion train wreck....i sometimes think i must be halucinating, or imagining it... but when i look again there it is......why doesnt america see this?
bergle

 

[CapnG]

<---- Also lives in Canada

Mostly from out here (Canada) forgive a euphemism but it looks like a real dog and pony show......
Perhaps you think we outsiders have no stake in whats going down, but the matter is much the opposite, and many many people await the outcome with a great deal of reality based concern.
The new SPP and other situations make this a crucial election for us too.......

I think you'll find most Americans either don't know or don't care about little things like us being their number one trading partner or their primary source of imported oil. Not to mention things like fresh water, lumber and the other crap NAFTA has screwed us on. What was that latest roper poll statistic... 1 in 6 Americans can't find Iraq on a map? It's depressing to think about.

Fortunately the people here on the Paracast forums tend to be more on the ball then their fellow Americans, making for interesting and informative (if occaisionally heated) discussions like this one.