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Aztec (Feb. 28th)

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Good Day ZO,

I think I have though; it’s still a very very long time. What homicide investigation lasts decades on end? There’s nothing special about ufology that justifies decades of work. I think maybe ufologists like to believe there is but really it’s no different than any other in design. True he’s only one man working part time but there’s an endless stream of investigators just like him. If you added up all the man hours put into Roswell it’s probably in the millions.

You infer that a 'historic UFO case," or more specifically, investigating one is analogous to a present day homicide investigation . . . this is akin to comparing a hand grenade to the atomic bomb. It is completely different.

I just don’t remember seeing his name attached to anything significant regarding Roswell, what has he done that’s fundamentally changed the way we look at the case? I don’t think that’s too much to expect given decades of time. Maybe we have different ideas of significant, maybe in terms of what other people have done within the framework of Roswell he’s done a lot, but not as a general rule.

As Scott said in the interview, his focus is on one case only and that is Aztec; he does not consider himself a Ufologist; he hasn't claimed to have made any contributions to Roswell, (although he has in regards to having found commonalities in personnel ala Roswell & Aztec--pertaining to retrieval and documentation). Conversely, he has made major strides in the Aztec case.

But it’s not though; a concrete slab could be used for a million and one things. For that to be a true statement it would be have to be something incredibly specific. If you’re looking for a murderer, showing that he has a gun in a place where anyone could have a gun for any reason doesn’t help your case. You need residue on the guy’s hands and you need the bullet to compare to the barrel striations. Just because you can put a crane on it, doesn’t mean a crane was on it.

Again, your taking this out of context: Scott uncovered a military witness that mentioned the necessity of a concrete pedestal to shore up the feet/foot of the crain; at the time he (Scott) wasn't cognizant of the slab as written by Steinman. To use your favorite anology, this would be like investigating a an alleged murder without a body, but a witness claims to know the instrument of death and its location. In looking onto the matter the investigator finds the gun just where the witness said it was and forensics puts the gun in the proper time frame.. Now does this mean this is the "proverbial smoking gun" (no pun intended) involved in the murdeer without doubt? Of course not; however, if the gun that was found in a remote location and dates back to the time of the alleged shooting as reported by a credible witness then this circumstantial evidence is very provacative in regards to the preponderance of "all the evidence."


That’s obvious to whom ever told him that though, it’s not an exemplary situation when dealing with moving heavy loads. It’s like if your neighbor was shot, the police would be looking for someone who owned a gun. If they don’t know you own a gun, and find out that you do, they don’t go “aha! It all makes sense now!” and arrest you.

If one's neighbor was shot, and a credible witness said I know who did it and the proof is in the purp's backyard buried underneath the doghouse and the police investigated and found the murder weapon--they'd arrest the purp.

But you can see how that looks right? A case that no one on the outside would consider viable needs another 20 or 30 years, why? Then you see his merchandise and some people would put 1 and 1 together. Ufology has convinced itself that this is normal and it’s just not, no one does this outside of ufology and it turns people off and causes motives to come into question.

The notion that Ufologists make fortunes on books and lectures is indeed a common myth with the less informed, of that there is no doubt . . . hell I've nicknamed Steinberg & Biedny "Gates & Jobs" with all the cabbage they're rolling in. :>)))

Sadly within the walls of Ufology there are indeed charlatans . . . some have been exposed right here on the Paracast; moreover, the MSM tends to focus to the fringe elements of Ufology, henceforth many sober Ufologists like Ramsey get enveloped in that umbrella. In my view however, the field's worst enemy is ignorance, and this is where researchers like Scott, et al try to make a difference.


I come to the Paracast for a different take on ufology. Even if I’ve heard that guest speak 10 or 20 other times, the conversation is always different here. That’s just what I’ve come to expect from the Paracast, they force these guys who recite the same talking points to the same sort of interviewer over and over again to come out of their box.

This we have in common . . .

Cheers,
Frank
 
I'm not sure how that is relevant, but since you asked, quite a few. The Green River killer took decades to solve. Just recently prosecutors charged a 72 year old man in a wheelchair for murders he committed, apparently, over 30 years ago. Now that DNA testing is workable, many cold case files are being revived and, fwiw, wrongly incarcerated people are being freed.

It's totally relevant and police cold cases are not even remotely parallel to Roswell, especially the Green River Killer.

That case wasn't continually worked on for over 30 years; they investigated it when it happened, the case went cold until recently and then the development of DNA technology allowed investigators to go back and test the old evidence.

My point was that homicide cases are some of the most complex investigations there are, some last years, and by the end of them there's only a small number of people working them as resources go to more current cases. It's the opposite with Roswell, as time goes on thousands more people put countless hours into it, technology gets better, and less gets done... although more books, dvds and lectures are sold.
 
Frank Warren said:
You infer that a 'historic UFO case," or more specifically, investigating one is analogous to a present day homicide investigation . . . this is akin to comparing a hand grenade to the atomic bomb. It is completely different.
Actually we agree there, I was saying it’s nothing like that, and yet homicide cases are regularly solved. I’m saying homicides are extremely complex in nature, whereas interviewing retirees is not. Roswell has more manpower, more man hours, more invested over time, more attention, but very little to show for it.
Frank Warren said:
If one's neighbor was shot, and a credible witness said I know who did it and the proof is in the purp's backyard buried underneath the doghouse and the police investigated and found the murder weapon--they'd arrest the purp.
That would be a valid analogy, if you had paperwork showing there was a crane there on that day doing salvage work for the army. And that’s my point, all Scott has is that there was a gun, at some point, possessed by someone, doing anything at all but not necessarily shooting it.
Frank Warren said:
The notion that Ufologists make fortunes on books and lectures is indeed a common myth with the less informed, of that there is no doubt . . . hell I've nicknamed Steinberg & Biedny "Gates & Jobs" with all the cabbage they're rolling in. :>)))
I’m not saying that at all, I think only maybe the top 1% actually make a decent living from it; people like Stan Friedman to give a legit name, and then a whole bunch of charlatans. People like Scott may not net money from his merchandise but that’s not the point, the point is that evidence, be it criminal or scientific, isn’t a commodity to be bought and sold. Although I do think you should make a separation between people that write about UFOs and UFO cases like Richard Dolan for instance, and those who write books presenting evidence.
 
I thought folks might be interested in Jim Moseley's view of it all. From my blog back in 2006 (original at: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2006/04/wit-wisdom-of-james-w-moseley-vol-iii.html):

The Wit & Wisdom of James W. Moseley, Vol. III

The Aztec "UFO Incident" (which I have called "Ufology's Dracula") continues to be promoted by a small group of people. I made a film a couple of years ago that gave the primary modern proponent of the Aztec "case", Scott Ramsey, a chance to make his case. He and Frank Warren continue to plug away at trying to convince people of the reality behind Aztec as well.

Azrec%20plotters.jpg


My own views are fairly well-known to anyone who reads this blog, and straightforward - the whole thing was a scam, a con, a hoax, cooked up a bona fide snake-oil saleseman, Silas Newton, and his sidekick, Leo GeBauer, who succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of the gullible Variety columnist Frank Scully (or, alternatively, were in cahoots with Scully in pulling the scam). Type in "Aztec" in this blog's search engine and you'll find my past columns on the subject, including the deconstruction of some of the claims made by the Aztec proponents (Scully, GeBauer and Newton are shown above, plotting, in a drawing by Jason Goodyear that appeared in the Aztec 1948 film).

Unlike any of us who may write about Aztec today, Jim Moseley actually got to meet and interview Silas Newton and Frank Scully back in the early 1950s. His recollections of those meetings can be found in Shockingly Close to the Truth, but here are some choice excerpts that should be read by anyone who still gives Scully and Newton the benefit of the doubt.

This first one concerns the meeting Moseley had with Newton in Denver, Colorado, on December 29, 1953:
"Once again, I heard the same story about J. P. Cahn's True expose that I'd heard from Scully and Adamski (I wondered if all three weren't working from the same script). Newton added the specific figure of his soon-to-be-(but never)-filed libel suit against the magazine: $10 million. He also took a shot at Keyhoe, claiming the writer had come to Denver, offered him 'a huge sum' for the little-men story, and when Newton refused, decided to 'write it up as a hoax,' just like Cahn, it seemed. Herman Flader, the victim of the swindle for which Newton had been convicted; saucer debunker Donald Menzel, who, Newton said, had completely distorted the facts about his Denver University lecture; and just about everyone else who dared to challenge the veracity of Newton and his friend Scully were denounced as opportunists, dissemblers, and conpiratorialists, perhaps in cahoots with the government...

I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere with him on his own claims, so I asked about those of others... [I brought up] Adamski. Newton said that while he didn't buy the Professor's mystical ideas or claims to have conversed with a Venusian, he did believe Adamski had met a spaceman and that his saucer photos were real. He said he and Scully told Adamski how to copyright his first three UFO pictures, which he claimed a 'Hollywood trick photography expert' told him could only have been faked 'at terrific cost and with studio equipment Adamski doesn't have.' Since I knew otherwise, this convinced me that Newton was lying...

It looked like Newton would back any claim that even remotely could be construed to lend support to his, even to the point of attempting to keep alive stories that had been retracted by those who told them. Newton went on to confirm my suspicions by very solemnly telling as true the hoax story of a man from Venus who had made a gouge in a piece of steel with his thumb, a story which he said I could not reveal, implying it was a big secret known only to a few. His dramatically delivered closing line was, 'And do you know that it took seventeen hundred pounds of pressure to reproduce that dent?' I stopped him there, thanked him for his time, and went out to my car.

As I drove away, I marveled at Newton's breezy nerve and style. There was no doubt in my mind that he was a confidence man through and through, and a very good one at that. It was quite likely that if I had talked with him before learning his background and doing my California investigations, I might well have been tempted to believe him. He told a great story - and with a straight face, too...

My investigations left me little doubt that Newton's saucers-and-little-men tale was a hoax perpetrated to help promote Newton and GeBauer's doodlebug confidence game. Yet even today, as with the Adamski saga, there are those who insist on believing otherwise, that some shadowy agency of the U.S. government still has GeBauer's saucers and little men stashed away in a secret facility. Newton, GeBauer, and Scully, you see, knew The Truth and were framed to keep it from being revealed...

Thus is confirmed another ufoological principle: No case ever is closed. Wait long enough, and what was thought dead and buried (pick your favourite case) will rise from the grave / Hanger 18 / Area 51 / a secret underground base, to walk among us again." [pp. 92 - 95, Shockingly Close to the Truth]
As for Frank Scully, Moseley met him a few weeks prior to his meeting with Newton. His take on Scully, written just after that meeting?
"My impression of Scully after one short meeting, and after the things I have heard and read about him, is this: He was probably duped... and he probably knows it; he may even have known it at the time [he wrote his book], as he is a professional writer and probably not against making money, even on a hoax. He gives the appearance of being religious, but he does not seem like a kindly man or a truly religious man, and he therefore seems to be a hypocrite. Actually, I think he is 'very much of this world,' and perhaps he is not even a believer in saucers. I think, however, that after the controversy caused by his last book, and after the way he has been discredited, he will be very careful of his facts in the next saucer book [which both he and Manon Darlaine told me he was working on but which never saw print]. He probably won't write the truth in his next book, but I imagine he will be careful to use hoaxes that can't be easily checked upon." [p. 80, Shockingly Close to the Truth]
Aztec, Adamski, Billy Meier, Alternative 3, the alien autospsy film... on and on it goes. There are always going to be con men, and there are always going to be people who fall for the con. The question is whether, when the con is finally exposed, the people who bought it in the first place continue to believe, despite the evidence to the contrary, or whether they accept the truth, and move on to more productive endeavors.

Alas, as Moseley noted, in ufology / ufoology there will always be enough of the former group to keep just about any story alive, and to keep anyone willing to promote it as real on the lecture circuit (small as that circuit may be these days).

Paul Kimball
 
And, whilst I have no desire to get involved again in a "debate" about Aztec (you can check out my research and writings on Aztec at www.redstarfilms.blogspot.com, in the first few months of 2005), I thought I would post this column I wrote in 2005 about Frank Scully. The Other Side of Truth, as it were, about a man Scott has referred to as the Peter Jennings / Tom Brokaw of his time (original at: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2005/03/being-frank-about-frank-scully-that-is.html):

Being Frank about Frank... Scully, that is


He was the man behind Behind the Flying Saucers. But who was he, really? The dupe that got conned by Silas Newton, or the "Dan Rather" of his day?

Frank Scully led an interesting and, in many respects, an admirable life. He was active in charitable causes, including the effort to find a cure for muscular dystrophy. He was a good Catholic - so good, in fact, that he was knighted by Pope Pius XII in the Order of St. Gregory the Great, in December, 1956. He knew a great many of the beautiful people of his day, and moved comfortably in their circles. Most significantly, he battled a number of serious physical ailments throughout his life with a sense of optimism and good humour that is best exemplified in his series of Fun in Bed books.

However, although he was a fairly prolific writer, he was far from the pre-eminent journalist that the proponents of the Aztec case claim he was - as Scott Ramsey put it, "Scully would be compared to the present day Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, or Tom Brokaw." At the time he wrote Behind the Flying Saucers, he had been writing a weekly column - "Scully’s Scrapbook" - for Variety, a Hollywood trade periodical that was hardly a journal of hard-hitting, serious news, for two decades. While his columns occasionally touched upon serious topics, the vast majority of them dealt with gossip, entertainment insider stories, personal reminiscences, and Scully’s off-the-wall brand of humour. He could probably best be described as an amalgam of modern Hollywood insider Pat O’Brien (Entertainment Tonight) and Jay Leno (The Tonight Show), with a bit of Fox News personality Bill O’Reilly thrown in (albeit with a liberal point of view in Scully’s case).

He was certainly no Peter Jennings or Tom Brokaw. The New York Times probably hit closest to the mark in its 1964 obituary of Scully when it referred to his "airy" career as "a professional humorist" possessed of an "acid wit." His motto throughout his career seems to have been epitomized by the following quote, for which he is still well known today - "Why not go out on a limb? Isn’t that where the fruit is?"

Scully was far from perfect. There is a great deal of evidence that he would do whatever he had to do to get to "where the fruit is." For example, In 1938 he ran for California’s State Assembly with the reformist slogan "Out of the Gully With Candidate Scully." Although defeated, he was rewarded for his support of Governor Culbert Olson with the position of Secretary in the Department of Institutions. Scully found what he considered to be deplorable conditions in the state’s institutions, such as a Los Angeles school for the blind where, he said, people were receiving harsh treatment from civil servants. Without consulting his superior, well-known psychiatrist Aaron Rosanoff, he set about "correcting" the various abuses he believed existed. Rosanoff fired him, and later charged that affairs in Scully’s office were "unbusinesslike." Scully refused to leave - literally; he encamped in the disputed office with the "protection" of a 300 pound bruiser who had once served a jail term for assault and battery.

Eventually, the whole mess wound up in court, with Scully suing Rosanoff and the State of California. He lost at trial, and appealed. In 1942, the appeal was denied. What is interesting is one the causes of action. As Secretary, Scully had been appointed guardian of a number of estates of incompetent persons. The probate court fixed the fees to which the guardian was entitled, in several cases where the person passed away, at a total of $2,650. Scully claimed that he was entitled to the fees! The Court, in a unanimous decision, correctly concluded that the fees were payable to the position, not the person (who was, after all, a salaried employee), and that they were to paid into the State treasury, after which they would be added to the appropriation of the Department of Institutions. This blatant cash grab, and the circumstances surrounding it, do not speak well of Scully’s character.

Scully’s penchant for attacking his enemies sometimes got physical. In 1948, at a meeting of the Central Democratic Committee of Los Angeles County in the run-up to the Democratic convention, an argument broke out between supporters of left-wing Democrat Henry Wallace and those who supported Harry Truman. The meeting was getting out of hand when Scully took the floor to try and restore order. "Let’s not divide ourselves to the point where we’re zero," he appealed to his fellow Democrats. "We’re damn near that now." When a man interrupted Scully on a point of order, Scully, who was standing with the aide of his chrome-plated crutches, snapped at him to "Sit down, you mug!" When the man continued, Scully moved to within a few feet of him, hoisted up his right crutch, and whacked him on the shoulder. This pretty much ended the meeting. [There's an amusing photo in Time Magazine of Scully brandishing his club at the man - 26 January 1948, p. 22]

A closer look at his life reveals that Scully also had a penchant for "stretching the truth" to his own benefit. For example, in Behind the Flying Saucers, and elsewhere, he claims that he was the author of Frank Harris’s biography of Bernard Shaw. This is a blatant exaggeration, however. As Scully’s friend, the arch-anarchist and writer Alexander Berkman, stated in a letter to Max Nettau:

"It was the secretary of Harris, one Frank Scully, an American journalist, who was to help Harris write the book. Harris wrote about 40,000 words and could not go on. His memory failed and he repeated himself. So Frank Scully took the book in hand and invited me to help him, as he himself is no author, just a journalist."

This account was confirmed by an entry in Nellie Harris’s diary for 17 January, 1931, wherein she stated that "Scully wants to employ labour - a competent man who knows how to write because now they have all the material." The man Scully engaged was Berkman. Later, after Harris had died before the book was finished, Shaw himself stepped in to finish the project. He noted in a letter to Victor Gollancz that "The book falls off badly at the end. There are two chapters (one of them commercially libelous) so bad that I think [Harris] must have left them to Scully to write." As Robert Pearsall concludes in his biography of Harris, Scully was a "young opportunist with hopes of cash and fame" whose claims to having ghost-written much of the book are "best ignored from all points of view." Thus, contrary to Scully’s claims, it is clear that no less than four authors had a hand in writing the book - Harris, Berkman, Scully, and Shaw - and that none of the others had a terribly high regard for Scully’s talents as a writer.

Scully could also be credulous, and lax when it came to checking alleged facts; Aztec was not the first hoax he had fallen for. A quick check of the Oxford English Dictionary reveals that the longest word in the English language is:

"pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis" (hereinafter referred to simply as pneum).

The word is a mouthful to be sure, but it is the definition that is the key:

"... a facetious word alleged to mean ‘a lung disease caused by the inhalation of very fine silica dust’ but occurring chiefly as an instance of a very long word." [Emphasis added]

So, how did this non-word find its way into the English language? In 1935, the National Puzzler’s League, the world’s oldest wordplay association, at its semi-annual meeting, "recognized" pneum as the longest word, replacing "electrophotomicrographically." Scully, who was living in New York at the time, saw the story in the paper, and included the word in his 1936 book Bedside Manner. On the strength of this citation, the word found its way into the major English language dictionaries. It was all a goof by the Puzzlers, and Scully wound up being on the butt end of the joke - not for the last time.

Scully also had an over-inflated sense of his own importance. This is evident in much of Scully’s writing (like the claim that he wrote the Shaw biography), but perhaps nowhere more so than in Behind the Flying Saucers and Scully’s subsequent defence of the book. As time went on the story seemed to become more about Scully than flying saucers. For example, in his response to James Moseley’s critique in Nexus, Scully wrote:

"Like a pathologist, I dealt with grounded saucers and dead crews. Since then several personal histories, dealing with active saucers and live crews, have been published, and nobody either in or out of the saucerian inquiry has seen fit to hang on the historians the word "hoax". Certainly nobody has gone around saying these historians admitted their story was a hoax. Just why was I singled out for this dubious honor? Is it because "Behind the Flying Saucers" is the keystone of this arch and the enemies of honest research believe if they can knock it down the rest will fall like a house of cards?" [Emphasis added]

He continued:

"As everybody agrees that the Pentagonians have not given us the whole truth about the saucerian mystery, it must be consoling to them to get a new crop each year to tear down the Scully bastion, and thus, continue to divide and rule." [Emphasis added]

The phrase "Scully bastion" combined with later indicators like the title of his part three of his autobiography - In Armour Bright - provide further evidence of just how far Scully’s self-image as a crusading journalist for truth, justice and the American way, went. It is a self-image, built largely on hubris - and accepted for too long by proponents of the Aztec story like William Steinman - that is simply not born out by the facts.

Finally, like Wilbert Smith with Sarbarcher’s disinformation, there was one aspect of Scully’s character that trumps all of the above when it comes to explaining his susceptibility to the Aztec con of Newton and Gebauer. Unlike Smith, however, whose weakness was an unquestioning belief in the existence of flying saucers, Scully’s was an inherent distrust of governmental authority. Part of this seems to have stemmed from his own personal experience in reformist politics in the 1930s (at one point, he was hauled in front of the Dies Committee), while the rest may well be the result of his travels and friendships with anti-establishment types like Frank Harris and Alexander Berkman.

Whatever the reason, this pre-disposition to view government as "corrupt" and the "enemy" made him particularly receptive to the suggestion of a government cover-up, in this case of flying saucers. Whereas Smith was moved by his pre-existing beliefs to link everything to the existence of flying saucers, Scully, in Behind the Flying Saucers and the material that followed, was more concerned with demonstrating the existence of a government conspiracy. Thus, anyone who questioned his claims was labeled a "Pentagonian stooge," and the leaders of the military as "ambulant Pentagonians, still able to parade around in their salad dressing and hand-tailored uniforms."

So - what to make of Frank Scully? My research is ongoing (9 of 25+ years of Variety on microfilm to finish with), but he may have provided a clue, years after he wrote Behind the Flying Saucers, in the form of the "wink, wink - nudge, nudge" style of writing he had perfected over the years at Variety, that he knew the whole thing was a con, perhaps even from the beginning. He still could not, or would not, bring himself to say so directly, but in his autobiography, In Armour Bright, the chapter that deals with Behind the Flying Saucers is titled, tellingly, "Flying Saucers, Where Are You?" Throughout the chapter, Scully maintains that the story was all true. But, at the end, in what would be his final word on the subject (he died a year after the book was published), he concludes not with a last attack on the Pentagonians, or Cahn and True Magazine, or any of his other critics, or with a final defense of the good character of Silas Newton, but with a joke:

"There was also a theory advanced that the flying saucers were tossed by Russian discus throwers who didn’t know their own strength. And of course there remains the oldest gag of all: If you haven’t seen a flying saucer and want to, just trip a waitress."

This may confirm James Moseley’s original judgement of Frank Scully, formed in December, 1953. After a meeting with Scully in which they discussed the Cahn article, and in which Scully that Behind the Flying Saucers was based on a hoax, denied that Leo Gebauer was Dr. Gee, and defended the credibility and character of Silas Newton, Moseley concluded that Scully had been duped, and that "he probably knows it; he may even have known about it at the time [he wrote his book], as he is a professional writer and probably not against making money, even on a hoax."

Had Moseley hit the nail on the head? As Frank Scully himself said in In Armour Bright, when discussing why he no longer had anything to do with flying saucers, "Frankly, by now I’m bored with the subject. Besides, [Behind the Flying Saucers] is now out of print and what author stimulates interest in a book that can’t be had for love or money?"

What author indeed?

Paul Kimball
 
Geo Location for the case. See the attachment. I would really appreciate Frank Warren's help with pinpointing a precise spot where this case happened. Thanks!
 

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Good Day BTS,

Frank,

You said "With all that said ZO, if historic cases aren't your cup of tea and you feel that ongoing research into them is a waste of time "why submit yourself to the show in the first place?!"

With all due respect, please don't start suggesting that people who don't like delving deeply into ancient UFO cases probably should do themselves a favor and STOP LISTENING TO THE PARACAST.

That is not what I was suggesting at all; I am a big fan of the Paracast, but much like "channels on a TV" when an episode, or more specifically a topic and or guest comes up that I'm not interested in--I don't listen to it! ZO stated in his first post:

"I'm so, soooo tired of Roswell and Aztec . . . but you can only beat a dead horse so many ways.

I really wish the UFO community as a whole would just collectively agree to move on from these cold, dead end cases."

To me it seems nonsensical for someone that holds that opinion to subject himself, or herself to something they find so distasteful.

If that is Gene's view, then I guess some of us could leave, but I sure wouldn't want THAT to be the result of my co-hosting the show (if I was in your position). You do not have to argue with anyone who does not like the guest on an episode you co-hosted. It makes you seem small and petty. Neither Gene nor Dave have done that. Agree to disagree, but if you are going to start suggesting that the listeners STOP LISTENING if they don't agree with you, then you are not doing Gene a favor.

In my view, "civil discourse" is the main function of this forum, and or all forums for that matter, and that is how I conduct myself. If you perceived otherwise, then I would ask that you reread the posts.

In the end I will conclude with the old, but still viable cliché: People, who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones . . .

Cheers,
Frank
 
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