Are Crop Circles all Bunk??

[TClaeys]

Any opinions on the subject??

I kind of go back and forth on some subject material. I tend to think the circles are just bunk, but don't know what you may think about this apparent data.

1. Elongated plant nodes
2. Plant nodes exploded or burst due to apparent energy
3. Metallic and magnetic anomalies

It would seem if there truly is data, somebody might acually be paying attention. But, as with any field, the people seem to be highly polarized. One side cites the complexity, the retirement of Doug and Dave, the personal stories, and the "data". The complexity argument may be dealt with by technology like GPS(and this new-fangled stuff called rope and sticks) and last I heard there were other people that could make crop circles. You do have more people over there in England don't you??

The other debunker side says that basically someone is doing this.
D U H !! But I've never heard anything about this apparent data that is often touted by BLT and other groups.

They are pretty cool to view and have undoubtedly affected the culture of the area, but, ....... is it all B U N K??

 

[Rick Deckard]

I think crop circles started off as a joke and have developed into an art-form in the same way that graffiti has. I suspect there are groups all around the world trying to 'out-do' each other - kudos goes to the most elaborate patterns.

They do it in secret because they're basically destroying a significant proportion of someone's crop. Their activity is seen as trespass and vandalism in most civilised countries - similar to graffiti.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

But, Mr. Deckard, your explanation still cannot account for the apparent anomalies in the crops. I think the Paracast did an interview with the lady from BLT. According to her group and a few others who seem to have done a lot of lab analysis, the properties that TClaeys mentions cannot be explained by any conventional phenomenon (such as rope and boards).

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

Linda Moulten Howe says her energy gets vibrated in 'em.

I'd kind've like to see that :

 

[mike]

its NO different to the UFO qiestion

none at all, some are real some are fakes the trick is sorting out the fakes from the real. its that simple

there ARE some very odd things happening with seeds from "genuine" crop circles, many experiments showing mutated growth patterns.

another interesting hypothesis i heard is that if you line up all the pictograms in chronoligical order of creation, they start out simple and "evolve" into more complex patterns, that they are a simple language lesson. the use of cereal crops being an example of something man does that no other animal here does, and vital now to our food supply.

perhaps some of the fakes are replys, it wouldnt be the first time our species has made pictures on the ground best viewed from above.

the nazca lines being an example of glyphs of this nature

 

[TClaeys]

its NO different to the UFO qiestion

none at all, some are real some are fakes the trick is sorting out the fakes from the real. its that simple

there ARE some very odd things happening with seeds from "genuine" crop circles, many experiments showing mutated growth patterns.

I think it is quite a bit different than the UFO question. We are left with virtually no evidence with UFO's, but crop circles leave plenty of physical evidence. A lot of what I have read just bypasses the physical evidence and starts to decipher the meaning of the circles. There is loads and loads of information on the meaning, but virtually nothing on the physical nature of the circles.

And although there are experiments that seem to indicate anomalies, has there been any repeat experiments to verify?? None that I can find. So we end up with a bias on the part of the researchers and no repeat experiments as far as I can tell. And science is based on this repeatability. The message is just an exercise in philosophical thinking if there is no evidence that indeed the circle is, well,.... a real one, if there is such a thing.

This leads us to all sorts of theories, none of which, I can tell are taken into serious consideration. In fact there is so much evidence physically that we should be able to tell if it is human made or otherwise.

 

[mike]

below is from wikpedia,
and while it seems that with the right gear you can duplicate some of the strange effects associated with "real" cropcircles it seems like an awful lot of effort, and then we have to have this equipment in places like new zealand and japan.

ive been interested in "cooked" landing sites since one i remember as a kid where ppl saw a UFO land in some manuka scrub, and later found a circular landing site, where the dead spiders found there were studied and found to have been cooked from the inside out as if by microwaves (this was back before microwave ovens were a comodity)

its that aspect of the phenomena that has me interested


Scientific analysis
In 2002, Discovery Channel commissioned 5 aeronautics and astronautics students from MIT to create crop circles of their own. Discovery's production team consulted with crop circle researcher Nancy Talbott, who provided them with three attributes which she believed set "real" crop circles apart from known man-made circles such as those created by Doug and Dave.[33] These criteria were:

Elongated apical plant stem nodes
Expulsion cavities in the plant stems
The presence of 10-50 micrometer diameter magnetized iron spheres in the soils, distributed linearly
Over the course of a single night the team were able to create a stereotypical "man-made" circle which they then attempted to enhance using the three criteria. The team used lengths of rope to plot their design and trampled the wheat down in a spiral pattern using lengths of wooden board attached to loops of rope. To meet criterion 2, they constructed a portable microwave emitter; using it to superheat the moisture inside the corn stalks until it burst out as steam. To meet criterion 3 they built a device - dubbed the "Flammschmeisser" - which sprayed iron particles through a heated ring. However, the device proved to be too time consuming to use and they were forced to finish the task using a pyrotechnic charge to distribute the iron around the circle. The circle was later analyzed by graduate students from MIT, who declared it to be "on a par with any of the documented cases". Their conclusion was later questioned by Talbott, noting that the team had only been able to recreate 2 of the 3 criteria. Talbott also expressed concerns that the iron particles were not distributed laterally. Furthermore, she felt that the team's use of night vision headsets and other technologically advanced items would be out of reach for the average hoaxer.[33]

The creation of the circle was recorded and used in the Discovery channel documentary "Crop Circles: Mysteries in the Fields".[33]

 

[Ron Collins]

The evolution of the "Crop Circle" is a bit suspect. They really aren’t circles anymore are they?

I think it would be a good test to take 5 fields of various crops and invite crop artists to fool the "Experts". Film the artists at work then wait a few days, and call the circle experts in to assess the circle. Tell the experts to explain why this particular circle is fake or real. Then flip it. Have the experts show a "real" circle and then challenge the artists to duplicate it in every detail. That should go a long way to establishing a good baseline for study.

I have read only one book on the subject. Called "Secrets in the Fields: The Science and Mysticism of Crop Circles" by Freddy Silva. It explores the author’s personal journey to understand the phenomenon. It has some good stuff in it. However, it also had huge gaping holes of logic, science, and reason. As a first book on the subject, it wasn’t that bad and it does give a good history of the subject.

 

[mike]

wow found this doing a search for "seeds from crop circles"

quite a read...............

http://www.spiritualgenome.com/crop_circles_explained.htm

 

[Siani]

Jacques Vallee wrote a paper about crop circles, and takes an interesting approach:

http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/cropcircles.pdf

 

[Rick Deckard]

But, Mr. Deckard, your explanation still cannot account for the apparent anomalies in the crops. I think the Paracast did an interview with the lady from BLT. According to her group and a few others who seem to have done a lot of lab analysis, the properties that TClaeys mentions cannot be explained by any conventional phenomenon (such as rope and boards).

Yes I know, I remember the show. It was quite interesting, as I recall.

I'm taking the scientific approach to the crop circle phenomena. If I can explain away 90% of the crop circles as 'art' then I don't have to consider the remaining 10%; I can just put them down to 'anomalies'. You know the sort of thing, insufficient data, pseudo-science carried out by 'amateurs', illogical patterns of thinking. It's all in the 'good science' handbook.

 

[mike]

some more science


http://www.bltresearch.com/published.html

all that lovely jargon, i could just take my clothes off and roll around in it.....

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

I think it is quite a bit different than the UFO question. We are left with virtually no evidence with UFO's, but crop circles leave plenty of physical evidence.

Virtually no evidence? What about all of the radar/visual cases and the landing trace cases? I call that evidence. Not to mention the multiple witness sightings, such as the Hudson Valley UFOs and the UFO event that preceded the flares known as the Phoenix Lights. That's evidence, too.

 

[Seth]

Personally I think all crop circles are easily explainable (anomalies included).

1. Most occur in England or “hotspots,” no doubt within driving distance of the artist (not alien).
2. They are found in the largest manipulatably-easy large-scale canvas available (crops).
3. Nodes are found on many, many types of plants and are not necessarily indicative of “steam,” “radiation,” or “microwaves.” All plants that have leaves have nodes. Abnormally large nodes are not even abnormal.
4. “Radiation” is everywhere and small discernable concentrations in rocks and soil are common. There are extremely high natural radiation deposits in every country of the world.
5. The patterns are indicative of contemporarily looking alien symbols and evolve accordingly.
6. Most are away from “construction” detection and found after the fact.
7. People have admitted to constructing them and have made elaborate (3D) versions on film.
8. Messages mean nothing…those that are discernable (Crabwood Formation) seem like a UFO nut made them.
9. Their real purpose is ambiguous: aliens wanting to communicate an important message would not be so ambiguous.

When we see a 3 feet deep, over-night, understandable, laser/nuclear/? etching in a huge vertical granite face somewhere visible I may re-look crop circles.

 

[Seth]

Virtually no evidence? What about all of the radar/visual cases and the landing trace cases? I call that evidence. Not to mention the multiple witness sightings, such as the Hudson Valley UFOs and the UFO event that preceded the flares known as the Phoenix Lights. That's evidence, too.

Um, Chuck, those are not evidence of crop circles.

 

[TClaeys]

I think it is quite a bit different than the UFO question. We are left with virtually no evidence with UFO's, but crop circles leave plenty of physical evidence.

Virtually no evidence? What about all of the radar/visual cases and the landing trace cases? I call that evidence. Not to mention the multiple witness sightings, such as the Hudson Valley UFOs and the UFO event that preceded the flares known as the Phoenix Lights. That's evidence, too.

I'm saying crop circles are quite a bit different than UFO's. And I understand what you are saying, but crop circles happen, again and again and again. In the same areas. Year after year. Certainly there is a great deal more physical evidence than a chemical we found once at an alleged UFO sighting. Or a radar return. I certainly don't mean to discount or minimize what little we have seen in the area of UFO's, but you've got to admit that there is more consistent data available in the crop circle phenomenon.

And, in that case, it is a matter of science. We have repeatability. We have instruments to carry out tests. We have lots and lots of bent wheat and whatever else. Why is it then, that we have not come to a conclusive answer to this?? Perhaps it is too silly to take seriously in the first place and I don't mean to offend anyone here.

The UFO world is just weird. We get so many variations of sightings, craft, experience, slag, implants, and babies apparently. It is so scattered that a scientist cannot solve this problem with current tools and methodologies. Even though ufology may have some data, it isn't enough to put in a lab and test in any scientific way. I think with crop circles we find the opposite true.

 

[Seth]

The presence of 10-50 micrometer diameter magnetized iron spheres in the soils.

Oh, this is crap too. 50 microns=.0019 inches. Many objects are spherical at this size. Iron, nickel, and cobalt are nearly always magnetized by the earth's field at such a small size (this is how we know about seafloor spreading).

 

[mike]

"Dr. William C. Levengood, a biophysicist and plant expert at the University of Michigan, has discovered that the cells at the nodal point, the point at which the plants bend in crop circles, about a half to one inch above ground level, have fractured and scarred. Professor Levengood planted the seeds from the cereal crops involved in this phenomenon and germinated them in environmentally-sound conditions. He found that the date at which the plants germinated was consistent with the control plants, that is, plants outside of the crop circle area. However, seeds from crop within the crop circles, once they have germinated, grew at a very much more accelerated rate above ground level than the control samples. The root structure was much more extensive and healthy below ground level, as compared with the control samples - indeed healthier and more productive. That, too, carries enormous significance in terms of the potential to increase crop production worldwide, if we only knew how to do this. Professor Levengood took his crop circle plants from three sites in the world - Australia, America, and Great Britain. Again, comparing these results with wind damage, hoaxing or trampling by human feet, these are not effects than can be replicated by humans."

while england does seem to have more than its fair share the phenomena DOES happen all over the world.

as for the iron spheres the point is that they are up to 600 times higher in concentration around the circles

some good stuff here

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/cropcirc1.htm

the crazy way the seeds behave from sites all over the world suggests to me its more than a plank and a prank

then this this grizzly aspect
"Dead wild animals are rarely found in crop formations, but there have been a few exceptions. Some birds had apparently been caught up in the creation of a 1993 formation, and had been blown apart and disintegrated by the force. Mixed in with the blood and feathers were minute bits of flesh, but there were no bones, or any distinguishable or recognizable parts. Laboratory tests on some of the remains confirmed that they belonged to an ‘exploded bird’.

Two dead porcupines were found in two different Canadian crop circles. One had almost disintegrated into blackened parts and the other had been squashed like a pancake. Scrape marks and a row of standing broken quills indicated that the latter porcupine had been dragged to the centre of the formation from the perimeter. The flow of flattened quills on its body went in the same direction as the lay of the fallen crop. Analysis of the other porcupine showed that the blackness of the remains was not due to burning. Most animals probably sense something is about to happen and run away, but porcupines respond to danger by simply raising their spines and sitting tight."

 

[Rick Deckard]

Perhaps crop circles are made by a one-legged swiss farmer, hopping around in circles...

 

[mike]

dont know much about him, but he would need to be able to time travel as well

Crop-circle evolution
When Doug and Dave claimed to have invented the crop circle phenomenon as a joke in 1978, they weren’t aware that almost 300 documented formations predated their alleged exploits. There are sporadic reports of crop circles being found in England throughout the 20th century. But reports actually go back several centuries earlier.

In 16th and 17th century folklore we find stories about fairies and elves seen dancing in the fields and leaving circles of trodden grass
In 1686 a British scientist, Robert Plot, published a book entitled A Natural History of Staffordshire, which contained accounts of geometric areas of flattened plants found on both arable land and pastureland. He describes not only circles but also spirals and squares within rings, up to 150 feet across. He reports that the soil under them was much looser and drier than normal, and that a whitish, musty substance or hoar, ‘like that in mouldy bread’, was sometimes found on the plants. He hypothesized that the designs were created by lightning exploding from the clouds. In July 1880 the science journal Nature published a letter from a scientist who described finding multiple circular areas of flattened wheat on a farm in southern England. He suggested they were the result of ‘some cyclonic wind action’.

this is from the 1600's



an interesting side shoot of crop circle research.
we can now duplicate the effects of increased growth rate ourselves.

Following the discovery of these germination and growth changes in crop circle plant seeds, research carried out by W.C. Levengood and John Burke eventually resulted in the development of a non-chemical, non-genetic technology which stimulates normal seeds to produce beneficial antioxidants. This MIR StressGuard process improves the seedlings' ability to withstand free radicals, resulting in the same increased growth rate and yield, and increased resistance to plant stressors, with no harmful environmental consequences.


http://www.proseedtech.com/MIR_process.htm