Acharya S and a Historical Jesus

[Alea]

Just a few thoughts...Did anyone else scratch her/his head? Aside from her lack of advanced scholarly credentials (she claims an undergraduate degree in classics and membership in the American School of Classical Studies at Athens - a "membership" that is paid for - not an invited honor), she speaks about the lack of acknowledgement of Christianity in history until the gospels appear in the 2nd century - saying that in that period of time, the "myth" of Jesus is created. She completely misses the writings of various Romans, including Tacitus, and other actually documented historical figures, who recount Nero's burning of Rome around 60 AD and Nero's scapegoating of the event and his subsequent torture of CHRISTIANS (remember feeding the Christians to the lions?). Obviously, the Christians were a recognized group in Rome by 60 AD.

Acharya also neglects to mention valid theological research such as Redaction Criticism and the discoveries of works such as the Sayings of Q (a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus and not published till many years after his death and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD).
The Hercules myth? She spends much time mentioning myths and legends from other cultures, but little to no mention of the traditions of the Hebrews, where the story of Jesus stems.

And just for the record, about "sun" worship...the word sun and son are homonyms in English. I don't believe that they are the same word in Hebrew, and it would be a stretch to believe that the very monotheistic Jews in and around Jerusalem between 1 and 70 AD would have adopted sun-worshipping.

 

[meciar]

yes, for those of us who are not religious, we have to be careful that this isn't just what we WANT to hear. Just because we don't hear much about the other side of the coin doesn't mean it is right either. Again, I think I need to listen to this part another time

 

[Alea]

Absolutely! It goes back to not believing in something or someone because we are told or its how we grew up, but because we understand a truth and understand its reality.

 

[Atrayo]

Hello Alea,

she speaks about the lack of acknowledgement of Christianity in history until the gospels appear in the 2nd century - saying that in that period of time, the "myth" of Jesus is created. She completely misses the writings of various Romans, including Tacitus, and other actually documented historical figures, who recount Nero's burning of Rome around 60 AD and Nero's scapegoating of the event and his subsequent torture of CHRISTIANS (remember feeding the Christians to the lions?). Obviously, the Christians were a recognized group in Rome by 60 AD.

To play devil's advocate (please forgive the pun) .

Acharya, wasn't debunking the early Christian movement as it first started as a Jewish sect than rose to pre-dominance. Her arguement was more so that the chief center-piece of Christ himself may have not have existed. The Christ figure-head may have been a combination of individuals wrapped into one messiah figure.

Since the New Testament was written by monks around that time of early 2nd century A.D. . The only true accounts may have come from the letters from Paul the Apostle written to the churches in early Christiandom. Also there are many other Christian sacred texts not including in the original Bible recognized by the Vatican. And other's considered as heretical texts, which you have stated in the "Sayings of Q".

Also Judism may have been heavily influenced by Zoroastorism that came from Ancient Persia. The three Magi's at the birth of baby Jesus were Zoroastrians themselves.

 

[Sepherant]

Atrayo's got it right. And I wish more time could have been spent on her investigative details. As much of a temptation it is to want to hear proof of something you'd like to believe in, it's obviously equally as powerful a desire to not want to hear the desintegration of proof of something you want to believe in.

As much as one can try to discredit Acharya by lack of credential, research is research, diploma or not, and Acharya does not stand alone. There are numerous scholars who've come up with the same conclusions Acharya has... with the status quo creds in hand.

 

[Guy.W]

That early Jewish sect worshipped the sun. One of the Pharaohs children started it. I think his name was Moses.

 

[CapnG]

Acharya's research seems incomplete. There's just as much historical evidence proving that there was indeed a man named Jesus who lived when he was purpoted too and felt the application of Roman justice. Does that mean he was the Messiah? No. In fact, it proves almost nothing beyond those basic facts.

I agree with her assessment on the tendancy of the religious to "recycle" mythos into their own interpretive dogmas by switching names. We need look no further than the Romans themselves for that. It doesn't automatically mean that dogma is manufactured however, merely that the genuine origins are now buried under superimposed iconography, litany and ritual.

It's sad that we, as a species, can't seem to maintain a straightforward historical perspective without overt embellishment corrupting simple facts out of all recognition.

 

[j-rod]

Acharya's research seems incomplete. There's just as much historical evidence proving that there was indeed a man named Jesus who lived when he was purpoted too and felt the application of Roman justice. Does that mean he was the Messiah? No. In fact, it proves almost nothing beyond those basic facts.

I agree with her assessment on the tendancy of the religious to "recycle" mythos into their own interpretive dogmas by switching names. We need look no further than the Romans themselves for that. It doesn't automatically mean that dogma is manufactured however, merely that the genuine origins are now buried under superimposed iconography, litany and ritual.

It's sad that we, as a species, can't seem to maintain a straightforward historical perspective without overt embellishment corrupting simple facts out of all recognition.

could you recommend some reading that puts forth credible evidence for a historical jesus? one without an obvious christian slant? i'm being serious. this might sound sarcastic, but it's not. i've read a lot from the other side and i'd like to study further. my problem is, like i've stated, i have never seen anything that did not have an obvious christian bias.

thanks.

 

[CapnG]

That depends entirely on your definition of "christian bias". If it means "must not have ever once passed through the hands of a christian", then the answer is probably no.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

There was a local radio host I liked years ago that spoke highly about the "Jesus Seminar". He spoke about how their work isn't slanted (but who can really say for sure..). Maybe look into them. At least I think it is called "Jesus Seminar". They did things from a historical perspective reportedly.

Here's some links.
Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Jesus Seminar



I think I've heard this guest on Jeff Rense years ago. I haven't listened to the paracast program with her yet. Jesus and the bible have been done to death and isn't a big interest, so much as an annoyance to me. I live in the bible belt after all. But from what I gather, her conclusions seem similar to what was written in Jane Robert's Seth books. Seth is supposed channel stuff. I just found this slightly interesting.

 

[hopeful skeptic]

Atrayo's got it right. And I wish more time could have been spent on her investigative details. As much as one can try to discredit Acharya by lack of credential, research is research, diploma or not, and Acharya does not stand alone. There are numerous scholars who've come up with the same conclusions Acharya has... with the status quo creds in hand.

One scarcely knows where to begin.

I am seldom surprised at how poorly the word "research" is understood by many folks in the "paranormal" community. Academic credentials mean something. Real research is not the result of reading a few books and scribbling some ideas on paper. Acharya is not a competent researcher, and the hosts did a very poor job of challenging the many misinterpretations and misstatements of fact pervading the interview. Of course, when a host has an axe to grind and sympathizes with the subject of the interview, not much else is to be expected.

The idea that Jesus never existed was very popular around the turn of the century. It had largely died out after the Bultmann period of criticism, and is now toted only by a few fringe scholars beholden to the revitalization of Gnosticism. Thanks to "The DaVinci Code," the old tenets of a now largely discredited line of criticism are being polished up and presented as new material.

As an aside, I often wonder why we don't hear any shows critiquing the foundational tenets of Islam. Considering Islam's impact on the world and the threat it poses to western civilization, one would presume that humanists would be scurrying about, lining up shows and guests to discredit the miracles attributed to Mohammed, poking holes in the idea of his ascension into heaven, etc. But, alas - nary a word.

Interesting.

 

[Alea]

Hopeful Skeptic...thank you for your comments.

 

[Acharya2007]

There are several false statements here that are making ME stratch my head. The American School of Classical Studies at Athens is NOT a "paid membership." That is an utterly false aspersion cast upon me by a fundamentalist Christian who assailed me quite aggressively - stalked me in fact - for almost a year.

It is really not good practice to try to disprove a thesis by attacking the author personally - especially with falsehoods.

ASCSA is a VERY exclusive school that bases its entry decision on academic merit as well as a series of tests - 9 hours, in fact. To claim otherwise is not only false but extremely disrespectful of a highly respectable institution.

I have been studying mythology for over four decades - including in two respectable institutions of higher learning. Those are my credentials. And now we can proceed to more germane matters, which include the subject matter at hand. Even a cursory knowledge of my work would reveal that I have addressed the issue of Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny and Josephus, among many others, quite thoroughly in my writings including at the following links:

Josephus on Jesus | Forgery and Fraud? | Flavius Testimonium
Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus

These pages constitute excerpts from my larger work, Suns of God. Parties interested in my work may wish to read my books before making critical remarks about my research and scholarship. It is equally not in good form to pass judgment on a person's life work without even having read it.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Christians were a "recognized group in Rome by 60 A.D." It is this sort of unscientific remark - one based on faith - that has created a great deal of turmoil within the academic community. Faith-based declarations that do not have historical or scientific evidence have caused far too much tumult on this planet. And this is a major factor in why I do what I do.

I did a one hour show that you happened to catch - you have not delved into my entire opus, which can be found in my website and books. If you expect me to cover all the materials you wish in an hour, you are not being practical at all. Such armchair quarterbacking is not particularly helpful. It is simply not true that the story of Jesus comes merely from the traditions of the Jews, as should have been obvious from what I was sharing about all the myths of the gods preceding the Christian era.

I have never said anything about the words for "son" and "sun" being the same in Hebrew or any other language, although there is some etymological relationship in Sanskrit. Misquoting someone and then knocking it down is a straw man. As for the pun of "son" and "sun," as the National Geographic online relates, this correspondence has been noted by many over the centuries:

"This gave rise to an interesting play on words," said Yeide. "In several languages, not just in English, people have traditionally compared the rebirth of the sun with the birth of the son of God."

Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

I do not have time to go into any long debate on this subject, as I have been addressing it quite thoroughly online for over a decade. My website contains much of the information I put forth on the radio show. If anyone is interested, they are certainly welcome to come check it out themselves.

Just a few thoughts...Did anyone else scratch her/his head? Aside from her lack of advanced scholarly credentials (she claims an undergraduate degree in classics and membership in the American School of Classical Studies at Athens - a "membership" that is paid for - not an invited honor), she speaks about the lack of acknowledgement of Christianity in history until the gospels appear in the 2nd century - saying that in that period of time, the "myth" of Jesus is created. She completely misses the writings of various Romans, including Tacitus, and other actually documented historical figures, who recount Nero's burning of Rome around 60 AD and Nero's scapegoating of the event and his subsequent torture of CHRISTIANS (remember feeding the Christians to the lions?). Obviously, the Christians were a recognized group in Rome by 60 AD.

Acharya also neglects to mention valid theological research such as Redaction Criticism and the discoveries of works such as the Sayings of Q (a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus and not published till many years after his death and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD).
The Hercules myth? She spends much time mentioning myths and legends from other cultures, but little to no mention of the traditions of the Hebrews, where the story of Jesus stems.

And just for the record, about "sun" worship...the word sun and son are homonyms in English. I don't believe that they are the same word in Hebrew, and it would be a stretch to believe that the very monotheistic Jews in and around Jerusalem between 1 and 70 AD would have adopted sun-worshipping.

 

[Acharya2007]

Yes, indeed. One scarcely knows where to begin. Personal attacks on me will not make the numerous facts I have brought to light go away. To say that I am "not a competent researcher" is your sorely uninformed opinion. Have you read my books, especially Suns of God, or are you going by gossip? Dr. Robert Price has called me a "scholar equal" - I suppose you will now make uninformed and insulting remarks about Dr. Price. It is not up to the hosts to "challenge" me. I have been on many radio programs over the years, and seldom do they "challenge" me other than bringing up objections that I answer. It is impossible to have a discussion if someone is attacking you.

The reason the very logical and most scientific argument that Jesus Christ is a fictional character "died out" is because of tactics precisely like these: Mindlessly insult the person who dares to point out the emperor's transparent nakedness. The status quo has even gone so far to not only ridicule those who sensibly pointed out all of the problems with accepting a "historical" Jesus, they drove them out of their livelihood - and worse. The tide has turned again, as it is quite clear that there is no scientific evidence of any value showing that Jesus Christ is a historical character.

All of these facts have been hashed out quite thoroughly elsewhere for a period of several years.

Parties interested in the numerous articles online about this controversy may visit my page at:

Christianity Debunking Links

If you proceed beyond the first articles, which are mine, you will find a slew of sites with material demonstrating the same facts I have presented.

That I and other "humanists" - we are people - do not criticize Islam is pure malarkey. There are many pages on my website and blog in which I harshly criticize Islam. A simple search will turn them up:

Truth Be Known | Acharya S | D.M. Murdock
Truth Be Known News | Blog of Acharya S

Again, I don't have time for an ongoing debate - or for reading more insults and misrepresentations of my person and work.

One scarcely knows where to begin.

I am seldom surprised at how poorly the word "research" is understood by many folks in the "paranormal" community. Academic credentials mean something. Real research is not the result of reading a few books and scribbling some ideas on paper. Acharya is not a competent researcher, and the hosts did a very poor job of challenging the many misinterpretations and misstatements of fact pervading the interview. Of course, when a host has an axe to grind and sympathizes with the subject of the interview, not much else is to be expected.

The idea that Jesus never existed was very popular around the turn of the century. It had largely died out after the Bultmann period of criticism, and is now toted only by a few fringe scholars beholden to the revitalization of Gnosticism. Thanks to "The DaVinci Code," the old tenets of a now largely discredited line of criticism are being polished up and presented as new material.

As an aside, I often wonder why we don't hear any shows critiquing the foundational tenets of Islam. Considering Islam's impact on the world and the threat it poses to western civilization, one would presume that humanists would be scurrying about, lining up shows and guests to discredit the miracles attributed to Mohammed, poking holes in the idea of his ascension into heaven, etc. But, alas - nary a word.

Interesting.

 

[Acharya2007]

In the many years that I have been studying this subject - over four decades studying mythology and religion, including 20 years spent on the subject of Jesus - I can assure you that I have left no stone unturned. There are few people, in fact, who have studied this subject as in depth as I have. Indeed, if one really had spent much time on the matter, he or she would have discovered quite early on that there is no credible, scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed. No literature of the period, no monuments, nothing.

Cheers.

Acharya's research seems incomplete. There's just as much historical evidence proving that there was indeed a man named Jesus who lived when he was purpoted too and felt the application of Roman justice. Does that mean he was the Messiah? No. In fact, it proves almost nothing beyond those basic facts.

I agree with her assessment on the tendancy of the religious to "recycle" mythos into their own interpretive dogmas by switching names. We need look no further than the Romans themselves for that. It doesn't automatically mean that dogma is manufactured however, merely that the genuine origins are now buried under superimposed iconography, litany and ritual.

It's sad that we, as a species, can't seem to maintain a straightforward historical perspective without overt embellishment corrupting simple facts out of all recognition.

 

[Rick Deckard]

Personally I've never bought into organized religion - luckily my parents aren't religious and therefore didn't feel the need to brainwash me with their belief system.

IMO, those that have such a belief system are stuck in a loop - there's no way out for them.

If the traditional 'God' exists then why don't I believe in him? As far as I'm concerned, if any sort of god existed they would not require a 'representative on earth' - they'd just create humans with a built-in 'belief' instinct or some sort of ability to communicate directly with them. Why should I trust another human being who claims they are 'Gods representative'?

Someone recently stated on TV "If the church has so much faith in God, why do they have lightening conductors on their buildings?" - I think that pretty much sums it up for me.

I'm glad to see that there is someone prepared to stand up to the 'zealots' and publish an alternative view on the Christian faith.

 

[CapnG]

Indeed, if one really had spent much time on the matter, he or she would have discovered quite early on that there is no credible, scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed. No literature of the period, no monuments, nothing.

Please then to explain Josephus' writings and the correspondences of the roman governors to their commanders. Also, I'd like your opinions of the following books:

Jesus the Christ by Walter Kaspar
Reading the New Testament by Pheme Perkins
Jesus the Man by Barabara Thiering

 

[j-rod]

As an aside, I often wonder why we don't hear any shows critiquing the foundational tenets of Islam. Considering Islam's impact on the world and the threat it poses to western civilization, one would presume that humanists would be scurrying about, lining up shows and guests to discredit the miracles attributed to Mohammed, poking holes in the idea of his ascension into heaven, etc. But, alas - nary a word.

Interesting.

I guess that depends which shows you are listening to. I haven't heard it on this show, but there are many skeptical and secular humanist podcasts that do. Try "Point of Inquiry". Just to be fair, doesn't this kind of harkon back to your criticism on "research"? Threre are plenty out there, you just have to do your research.
Also, I kind of have to admit that I am a bit tired of the whole "Islam's impact on the world" thing. Yes, it is true right now, but look at the impact that Christianity has had on the world for the last 2000 years and all the devistation it has caused. We like to think otherwise becuase it is the custom we inhereited in this country; it's "our" religion. Sure, Christians didn't fly any planes into any buildings, but they have blown up abortion clinics, robbed cultures of THEIR beliefs and traditions, molested a monstrous amount of children, and those soldiers in Iraq: you think they are not fighting for "God". Think again. That's just a few. Besides, change starts at home and this country needs some changing. Especially when you have powerful church leaders like Ted Haggard preaching to hate homosexuals and then he gets caught doing meth AND having a homosexual affair. Yeah, I think we have enough problems here.
Another reason is that because of the mentality of a monotheistic religion, Christians, Catholics, etc., already view it as false. There is no need to make a scholarly dissection, it's just a story. OURS is the truth. Joseph Campbell said it best once when he stated that we view our religion as religion and other people's religion as mythology. They are all mythology.

 

[j-rod]

There are several false statements here that are making ME stratch my head. The American School of Classical Studies at Athens is NOT a "paid membership." That is an utterly false aspersion cast upon me by a fundamentalist Christian who assailed me quite aggressively - stalked me in fact - for almost a year.

It is really not good practice to try to disprove a thesis by attacking the author personally - especially with falsehoods.

ASCSA is a VERY exclusive school that bases its entry decision on academic merit as well as a series of tests - 9 hours, in fact. To claim otherwise is not only false but extremely disrespectful of a highly respectable institution.

I have been studying mythology for over four decades - including in two respectable institutions of higher learning. Those are my credentials. And now we can proceed to more germane matters, which include the subject matter at hand. Even a cursory knowledge of my work would reveal that I have addressed the issue of Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny and Josephus, among many others, quite thoroughly in my writings including at the following links:

Josephus on Jesus | Forgery and Fraud? | Flavius Testimonium
Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus

These pages constitute excerpts from my larger work, Suns of God. Parties interested in my work may wish to read my books before making critical remarks about my research and scholarship. It is equally not in good form to pass judgment on a person's life work without even having read it.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Christians were a "recognized group in Rome by 60 A.D." It is this sort of unscientific remark - one based on faith - that has created a great deal of turmoil within the academic community. Faith-based declarations that do not have historical or scientific evidence have caused far too much tumult on this planet. And this is a major factor in why I do what I do.

I did a one hour show that you happened to catch - you have not delved into my entire opus, which can be found in my website and books. If you expect me to cover all the materials you wish in an hour, you are not being practical at all. Such armchair quarterbacking is not particularly helpful. It is simply not true that the story of Jesus comes merely from the traditions of the Jews, as should have been obvious from what I was sharing about all the myths of the gods preceding the Christian era.

I have never said anything about the words for "son" and "sun" being the same in Hebrew or any other language, although there is some etymological relationship in Sanskrit. Misquoting someone and then knocking it down is a straw man. As for the pun of "son" and "sun," as the National Geographic online relates, this correspondence has been noted by many over the centuries:

"This gave rise to an interesting play on words," said Yeide. "In several languages, not just in English, people have traditionally compared the rebirth of the sun with the birth of the son of God."

Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

I do not have time to go into any long debate on this subject, as I have been addressing it quite thoroughly online for over a decade. My website contains much of the information I put forth on the radio show. If anyone is interested, they are certainly welcome to come check it out themselves.

It's great to see you posting here! I really enjoy your work.

 

[nightlark]

they'd just create humans with a built-in 'belief' instinct or some sort of ability to communicate directly with them.

What if people DID have this built in, but in some people the instinct is broken?