Unpopular opinion, the case for non-disclosure…

[Randall]

My cynicism comes into play in these areas.

Cynicism is an essential survival skill

 

[Randall]

I’ve been following the UFO enigma since the early 1970s. As a young man, I was very naïve regarding the ramifications of first contact.
After a lifetime in this society and looking at our world as a whole. I am convinced that human society could not absorb the psychological impact of first contact, especially if they are already among us.
I see absolutely nothing that convinces me with any reasonable assurance that our society could acquiesce into a subordinate role to any capacity… it seems to me that many of the people who clammer the same people that support mass deportation and refused to learn a second language. These people seem ill equipped to be able to deal with an alien extraterrestrial presence.
I’ve written a short essay regarding this. I’ll try to attach it if anyone is interested AnyWho, that’s my two cents. Thanks for having the forum here. Take care.

Thanks for your "two cents" — an excellent example of what constitutes constructive discussion. While your essay makes several valid points and observations, my takeaway from it is that it has more to do with how humans in general have historically behaved toward themselves and other species on the planet, and by extension how they might behave to open interaction with aliens, rather than whether or not present day society could, "absorb the psychological impact" of such interaction.

As mentioned in a previous post, according to polls, enough people are plenty prepared psychologically, and the rest don't seem to care much either way so long as they can get to work on time. There have even been attempts for decades to make contact happen via various SETI initiatives. How positive or negative the effect would be also depends on details that aren't known. This is explored in Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End. It's available as a book, movie, and even an audiobook dramatization.

One point that Childhood's end makes ( without giving away too much ) is that how well Earthlings can adapt to an alien presence might be largely irrelevant to some aliens. As usual, we look at the problem from our perspective as the most important variable in the equation, when we might not have the capacity to comprehend it, or realize that it only takes us into account for their purposes — not ours.

​

 

[Trajanus]

In 2019, 73% of Americans said they believed in the existence of UFOs, while 33% said they believed in the existence of extraterrestrial beings. This indicates that a significant portion of the American population is open to the idea of alien visitation — and IMO most of the rest would either quickly adapt or just think it doesn't really matter.

A "significant proportion" (33%) indicates progress has been made but it's not adequate. Maybe around 80--90%. And just because a person believes aliens exist doesn't necessarily mean he's ready to accept their presence here calmly--if or when it's openly acknowledged.

I don't think anybody knows "the full truth", and those who think they do are deluding themselves the same way that religious fanatics do.

There are good grounds for thinking the government knows a great deal, and safe to assume its reluctance to reveal it is based on this knowledge.

Even if the aliens openly revealed themselves and held a press conference — we still wouldn't know "the full truth".

Depends on their veracity--which generally hasn't been very good, based on what some contactees have been told--and how much they revealed.

You've got me curious though — what do you think "the full truth" is about "what they want revealed"?
What do you base it on?

I meant the full truth about what the government has steadfastly concealed. I'm not sure of the source, maybe the book A.D. There are grounds for believing advanced ETs represent a system in ways diametrically different from our own, so that emulation would likely require a radical transformation of existing institutions and beliefs. There was a report of a US President--Carter IIRC-- weeping after a top secret briefing on the subject.

 

[Burnt State]

Ok that Rogan stuff is all improvisational poppycock. The only thing that came close to making sense was "take magic mushrooms to make more love and peace in the world". Unfortunately I do not own an aura ring nor a hyperbaric chamber to test his theories that he is 100% certain of. I would qualify him as "mostly harmless".

James Madden Philosopher on Down The Rabbit Hole UFO podcast

This is a much better Rabbit Hole for you to dive into. The early phase of this podcast had some fascinating moments exploring the topic from different angles and disciplines, which was refreshing. Since its commercialization and focus on TV productions it's lost its way down the money making rabbit hole.

The episode where Pasulka and Madden just riff with each other really is entertaining, and at least provides some good academic meat on the bone for The UFO discussion through a different lens. No real discoveries, but at least some better and new musings for the brain to contemplate regarding UFO phenomena.

I haven't been this interested in the topic since I first encountered Bruce Duensing and his many metaphors of the paranormal.

A Transit of Contingencies

 

[JamesT]

I like your definition of following The Subject as it really matches mine especially the Vallee points. I think Trinity just sit too well into his paradigm of interpretation but what a big mistake that was.

However, ar times I have gone while hog into the subject inside the context of working with other ufologists off the books and at the end of the day I'm still finding that Jerry Clark makes the most sense to me. We have no idea what it is and so we definitely can't start talking about its intentions.

The American Military Industrial Complex has always kept it really close to its chest. They have kept their own serious science around the phenomena off books for the last 75 years.

I think their lack of sharing with the masses amounts to more of a complete and utter lack of understanding as to the origins of the phenomena whose technology is way out of our league.

They seem to hold to the principle that if it's not a threat then there's not much to do about it. And if we can't explain it then there's no point in telling the public anything about it. Why create confusion? Let's just keep up the illusion of control.

Everyone who has followed ufology/ufoology for any significant amount of time should recognize that the gatekeepers who probably have some really mind blowing evidence are doing some shady versions of disclosure (Elizondo and his myth of being the leader of a UAP team) not for the benefit of the masses, but for other purposes altogether, as they always have.

Yes indeed - concur with your take on this curious field. How naive we all were decades ago to perennially hope that next year will be the year when the mystery is solved … and so the best goes on And yes totally agree re: Jerome Clark ….definitely one of the finest chroniclers/commentators in this field - his ufo encyclopaedia was wonderful

 

[JamesT]

Yes indeed - concur with your take on this curious field. How naive we all were decades ago to perennially hope that next year will be the year when the mystery is solved … and so the best goes on And yes totally agree re: Jerome Clark ….definitely one of the finest chroniclers/commentators in this field - his ufo encyclopaedia was wonderful

Beat

 

[Randall]

A "significant proportion" (33%) indicates progress has been made but it's not adequate. Maybe around 80--90%.

The 33% represents those polled on belief and extrapolated out — that's full one third. Many more are perfectly ready to psychologically accept it with minimal adaptation because they've been so inundated with it — and the rest don't care one way or the other. The only people that couldn't wrap their heads around it would be a few die-hard skeptics, religious dogmatists, and primitives still living in jungles.

And just because a person believes aliens exist doesn't necessarily mean he's ready to accept their presence here calmly--if or when it's openly acknowledged.

Nobody says acceptance has to be "calm". Humans get worked-up about all kinds of things, but they don't all run off and bury their heads in the sand because they can't take the psychological shock. They'd just do their best to carry-on with life as usual and cope with whatever practical changes there would be in their lives.

There are good grounds for thinking the government knows a great deal, and safe to assume its reluctance to reveal it is based on this knowledge.

Let's not forget that the War oF The Worlds scenario was in the context of an all-out military type invasion broadcast on radios nearly 90 years ago. A lot has changed since then. However, I do agree that certain Governmental agencies know way more than the average citizen. I just think that the reason they don't disclose it has more to do with how they know, than what they know.

Like I keep saying, we ( the people ) already know alien visitation is a reality, and I've seen no indication in any non-believer I've ever interacted with that their heads would suddenly explode if they were faced with the reality on the evening news.

Depends on their veracity--which generally hasn't been very good, based on what some contactees have been told--and how much they revealed.

Agreed. But for the sake of discussion, even if the aliens claimed total transparency, how would the average person go about verifying it? It would be a nearly impossible task. The best we could do is accept a mothership tour and a visit to Xenu ( or wherever they're from ) — and even then we'd only get a superficial idea about the situation.

I meant the full truth about what the government has steadfastly concealed. I'm not sure of the source, maybe the book A.D. There are grounds for believing advanced ETs represent a system in ways diametrically different from our own, so that emulation would likely require a radical transformation of existing institutions and beliefs. There was a report of a US President--Carter IIRC-- weeping after a top secret briefing on the subject.

So you're not claiming that you have any personal insider or contactee type of insight into whatever the "full truth" is? You're just speculating along with the rest of us. Fair enough — and it might go a lot like you suggest. I certainly don't know. My perspective is based on certain suppositions that might or might not be very accurate.

For example, I tend to think that due to the limited open interaction so far, that the aliens don't have the capacity or motivation to launch a full scale sustained planetary invasion, and that they're more analogous to well funded naturalists here on Earth who go out into remote locations with relatively advanced technology to study the wildlife.

But who knows? Maybe that's just part of an environmental assessment required by the Bureau of Galactic Sustainability before they strip-mine the planet for dilithium crystals.

 

[Trajanus]

The 33% represents those polled on belief and extrapolated out — that's full one third. Many more are perfectly ready to psychologically accept it with minimal adaptation because they've been so inundated with it — and the rest don't care one way or the other.

Way too optimistic in my opinion.

The only people that couldn't wrap their heads around it would be a few die-hard skeptics, religious dogmatists, and primitives still living in jungles.

Sure, once familiarization is deemed complete.

Nobody says acceptance has to be "calm". Humans get worked-up about all kinds of things, but they don't all run off and bury their heads in the sand because they can't take the psychological shock. They'd just do their best to carry-on with life as usual and cope with whatever practical changes there would be in their lives.

But this is different--fear of the unknown, and not just any unknown but advanced alien beings with incredible powers. That's why there's familiarization, to reduce the ultimate shock of a revelation.

Let's not forget that the War oF The Worlds scenario was in the context of an all-out military type invasion broadcast on radios nearly 90 years ago. A lot has changed since then. However, I do agree that certain Governmental agencies know way more than the average citizen. I just think that the reason they don't disclose it has more to do with how they know, than what they know.

They know because of the evidence they confiscated in '47--nothing shocking about a retrieval operation, or radar sightings etc. What they know could undermine current beliefs even in people don't actually panic.

Like I keep saying, we ( the people ) already know alien visitation is a reality, and I've seen no indication in any non-believer I've ever interacted with that their heads would suddenly explode if they were faced with the reality on the evening news.

Na, the bulk of people don't fully accept ET here. Lots of people incline toward belief but I don't think they've really internalized this reality. They're not fully ready, and I think we can assume ETs and the government concur, judging by their policies to date....And they're in a better position to know than lay people.

For example, I tend to think that due to the limited open interaction so far, that the aliens don't have the capacity or motivation to launch a full scale sustained planetary invasion, and that they're more analogous to well funded naturalists here on Earth who go out into remote locations with relatively advanced technology to study the wildlife.

I just don't buy that. Had mere study been their purpose, I don't think there'd be a UFO phenomenon. Remember back in '64 in his Anatomy... book Vallee noted that a single craft absorbent to both light and radar could collect all needed data without us even knowing about them. Yet the phenomenon obviously wants to be seen and recognized as ET. Brightly lighted craft, strange--looking, obviously nonhuman entities...Familiarization must be the purpose.

 

[Randall]

Remember back in '64 in his Anatomy... book Vallee noted that a single craft absorbent to both light and radar could collect all needed data without us even knowing about them. Yet the phenomenon obviously wants to be seen and recognized as ET. Brightly lighted craft, strange--looking, obviously nonhuman entities...Familiarization must be the purpose.

Note that I didn't include the rest of your post because I take no issue with it. All valid speculation and everyone is entitled their opinions. This last bit ( above ) is a bit more interesting. I agree with you that in some cases the aliens want us to notice them, but in those cases that also requires them to monitor our response to them — which is the same as studying our reaction to them.

The point is that the only way for them to have absolutely no interest in studying us is to have no reason for displaying themselves other than as a byproduct of their presence. So which is it? If they want us to become familiarized, that necessitates some sort of monitoring a.k.a. study, and if they don't care, then they have no real interest in us being familiarized with them either.

The only logical resolve is that some cases of exposure are deliberate — and some aren't. We humans behave this way when studying the wildlife here all the time. Sometimes we watch from miles away with high powered lenses and the animals have no idea they're being watched. Other times we fly over them in helicopters, tranquilize them, take them to a lab, tag them, and let them go again.

In the latter case, sometimes that's the only way to do that type of research. You need samples and physical access. It can't all be done as if by magic, and even if some aliens can — it's entirely reasonable to suggest that not all of them have that ability. Our biology might be as alien to them as theirs is to us. It's not safe to assume that they all have god-like superpowers or an equivalent understanding of us as our doctors do.

In fact — it seems that our level of medical care exceeds the capacity of some aliens, while others do seem to have some sort of super healing powers. There's a range. It's not safe to make sweeping generalizations. If you do, there will almost certainly be something that will come back to bite you later. That's what makes the subject so interesting. It's part of the "trickster" phenomenon ( as COB used to call it ).

 

[Burnt State]

In the latter case, sometimes that's the only way to do that type of research. You need samples and physical access. It can't all be done as if by magic, and even if some aliens can — it's entirely reasonable to suggest that not all of them have that ability. Our biology might be as alien to them as theirs is to us. It's not safe to assume that they all have god-like superpowers or equivalent technology.

I don't understand this thinking. They've mastered the physics and biology of interstellar travel but they can't send a nano probe into my bedroom to get a blood sample from me in-between my snoring? And the same goes for every alien seen outside the ship gathering a soil sample for the humans to watch as they then scurry back into their ship.

I can possibly go along with Symington lending them a jug of water while they're making pancakes; because, it's expedient, but trying to abduct people with sea mines? It just doesn't make any sense at all. In fact why even bother sending manned ships into outer space when space travel is dangerous stuff?

Why not just make it all digital and robotic? Does the interstellar package need to be any bigger than a football? What's up with all these super mother ships the size of football fields and all the little scout ships that fly in formation or merge together and then dissolve into the big blob?

Their tech is in fact like magic compared to ours I. They don't need any star maps pulled down on the roller chart or suction cups to get at our sperm. They have never ever needed to have themselves on display but they sure like to make a big show of it every now and then for a select audience.


Like is this some kind of alien cruise ship where if you pay out enough quatloos you and your little grey kids can tour the northern territories of Canada and see maybe 6 or 7 humanoids?

 

[Randall]

I don't understand this thinking. They've mastered the physics and biology of interstellar travel but they can't send a nano probe into my bedroom to get a blood sample from me in-between my snoring? And the same goes for every alien seen outside the ship gathering a soil sample for the humans to watch as they then scurry back into their ship.

I can possibly go along with Symington lending them a jug of water while they're making pancakes; because, it's expedient, but trying to abduct people with sea mines? It just doesn't make any sense at all. In fact why even bother sending manned ships into outer space when space travel is dangerous stuff?

Why not just make it all digital and robotic? Does the interstellar package need to be any bigger than a football? What's up with all these super mother ships the size of football fields and all the little scout ships that fly in formation or merge together and then dissolve into the big blob?

To me it's not hard to understand why some aliens might not have the same technological capacity or knowledge in certain areas as we do — especially knowledge specific to us that has taken thousands of years of experience and study being us here on Earth to get a grasp on.

Their tech is in fact like magic compared to ours.

Their transportation tech is most certainly more advanced, but for all we really know, they just stumbled on it the same way our own science has stumbled on some discoveries, and that it was so useful to them that it stunted other types of technology we have had to invent in order to compensate.

I know we've heard the rumors about back engineering alien tech that led to things like semiconductors, but having looked into them from a mainstream science perspective, it's clear to me that humans came-up with our tech all on their own. At best, maybe some of it has been inspired by sci-fi — but we don't need real aliens for that.

Consequently, maybe us being able to produce microchips with 4 trillion transistors on them is totally miraculous to them. Maybe us having mapped the human genome down to the molecular scale is equally beyond their grasp. Maybe apart from natural telepathy and building really fast big ships, they're really not that advanced, Maybe they're like the Pakled . . .

They don't need any star maps pulled down on the roller chart or suction cups to get at our sperm. They have never ever needed to have themselves on display but they sure like to make a big show of it every now and then for a select audience.


Like is this some kind of alien cruise ship where if you pay out enough quatloos you and your little grey kids can tour the northern territories of Canada and see maybe 6 or 7 humanoids?

Maybe — Whatever the case, the Fox lake case is a really interesting one !