Death!

[manxman]

Wow ... three family members. I am sorry for this loss. I assume you feel they would have had more time?

Not really much longer in their case.
It's how they sell it to you, as if your to stupid to realise, they are killing them, or as they put it, letting nature take its course, i remember one fella rabbiting about death being a natural process, the body shutting down etc etc, but what they were really doing was speeding up the process to save money, hence the financial incentives.

Ive also no doubt the doctr's believed they were dong the right thing, when it was doctors making the decision to withdraw treatment, its a slippery slope when withdrawal of treatment is decided by ward managers.
they forget we are there 24/7 watching them fiddling with the auto-pump drugs thing, eventually they just sleep, sometimes become vaguely aware, until they become comatose and their hearts stop, and its the morphine that achieves that, you know when they are going to die within the next few minutes evrytime, as you become attuned to their breathing, my mother came back after about 30 seconds, and stopped breathing again a few minutes later, my mother was ready to go, she wanted to be with my sister and father, but my sister fought it, she didnt want to leave here daughters.

edit
sorry that last bit about my sister isnt worded very good, you would have to be there to understand.

 

[Burnt State]

Wow ... three family members. I am sorry for this loss. I assume you feel they would have had more time?

When my dad died my aunt came over from Austria to see her brother into the ground. She always thought he would die on a mountain, not in a lake. As the coffin was lowered down into the pit she mumbled through tears with utter resignation and total loss, "That's it. I'm the last one." Her family of four that she had grown up in as the youngest member, a family that had just barely scraped through World War II, though different parts and people had been shattered, was now gone. She was the only lonely one left. I remember feeling her sadness as an even deeper one etched below mine as I stood staring numbly at the coffin that contained the body of my father.

The whole scene was entirely impossible for me, like carrying his coffin out of the funeral home with my brother, my uncles and his soccer buddies. But I knew it was real because my brother, mother and I had just closed the lid on his coffin an hour earlier. I felt his cold bony pale hands and said goodbye. Each part of the death process was just entirely surreal, from losing him in the water, to waiting three days for the divers to find his body, to selecting his coffin and then saying goodbye. The hardest part was the closing of the coffin. That was an unexpected permanence. So that's death, I said to myself, all empty and hollow and numb. He's gone forever. That sudden scene, magnified by the trauma of witnessing his death, was the most intense sequence of events in my life. You can't really prepare for the traumatic death.

Following the death of my neighbour who had become my substitute dad, friend and brother from cancer and the liverpool pathway I learned an appreciation for the load that death is. I only fear my own death now knowing the burden and pain it would cause my young children. The death of the parent, like the death of a child, is a life altering event. I don't want that for my own kids, way too heavy.

Loneliness for my partner - also an emptiness there, the loss of the voice that is part of your everyday call & response of living. I woud be most sad by the nightime quiet if I lost my partner at this juncture in my life. Initimate family death is profound.

 

[smcder]

Not really much longer in their case.
It's how they sell it to you, as if your to stupid to realise, they are killing them, or as they put it, letting nature take its course, i remember one fella rabbiting about death being a natural process, the body shutting down etc etc, but what they were really doing was speeding up the process to save money, hence the financial incentives.

Ive also no doubt the doctr's believed they were dong the right thing, when it was doctors making the decision to withdraw treatment, its a slippery slope when withdrawal of treatment is decided by ward managers.
they forget we are there 24/7 watching them fiddling with the auto-pump drugs thing, eventually they just sleep, sometimes become vaguely aware, until they become comatose and their hearts stop, and its the morphine that achieves that, you know when they are going to die within the next few minutes evrytime, as you become attuned to their breathing, my mother came back after about 30 seconds, and stopped breathing again a few minutes later, my mother was ready to go, she wanted to be with my sister and father, but my sister fought it, she didnt want to leave here daughters.

edit
sorry that last bit about my sister isnt worded very good, you would have to be there to understand.

So they died all at the same time? I think I understand what you are saying about your sister not wanting to leave her daughters. My father talked about this process with his mother a few years back, it sounds like the same protocol. That is very interesting about being attuned to their breathing and interesting that she fought it - people dying when their children are out of the room, even for a moment, or just after someone comes for a visit who has been awaited - seem to indicate there is sometimes a degree of control or the possibility of a final letting go.

I also think it's interesting that people know when they are going to die - both over longer and shorter periods. EMTs talk about people in accidents who know they aren't going to make it - sometimes that's obvious, sometimes it isn't - and EMTs are folks who know by looking who is likely to make it. The textbooks actually say "impending sense of doom" - the instructor said she had never known anyone with that symptom to survive.

I also think people know over a longer period of time, even before they are diagnosed. My uncle said one time that he wanted to live three more years and die in his sleep - which is what he did. I remember because it was an odd number, not five, not a few but three. In other cases there are stories of the live fast, die young variety - where there is a premonitory sense ... Sam Kinnison, maybe James Dean - also personal stories of people who seemed to know they were going to die young. Some lived accordingly and maybe fulfilled the prophecy or hastened it, most seemed to feel it was inevitable.

 

[manxman]

My dad [65] died 10 years before my sister [43], who died 10 months before my mother [70], who died 5 yrs ago last april.
Cancer x 3, 2 bowel 1 lung.

But none of there death certificates for cause of death said heart failure.
They say
Cause of death
A] Carcinomatosos
B] Cancer of lung


I hope i havent come over as angry at the 'system' im not, they got great care, for working class people, my sister got that new expensive wonder drug, i forget the name, that gave her 3 extra years, it isnt a cure, but it buys time.


edit.
Sorry my sister was 46, i only noticed my mistake because you quoted

 

[smcder]

My dad [65] died 10 years before my sister [43], who died 10 months before my mother [70], who died 5 yrs ago last april.
Cancer x 3, 2 bowel 1 lung.

But none of there death certificates for cause of death said heart failure.
They say
Cause of death
A] Carcinomatosos
B] Cancer of lung

Wow, ok - gotcha, bowel cancer isn't good ... interesting about the birth certificates, but that goes along with the neatness of an administrative solution. ... "... phased out over the next 6-12 months and replaced by an individual approach to end of life care." phased out ... not stopped immediately because that has an air that something is wrong ... even "individual approach to end of life care" - why do we need that phrase, think about living in a world where the fine print could say: "just treat each person exactly the way you'd want to be treated if you were dying" ... or even better, in a world without fine print. I know, that's beyond science fiction.

 

[manxman]

If i was a deep thinker, i may be tempted to think that being at loved ones side's when they die, is natures way of taking away your fear of dying, assuming the deaths are peaceful, i mean after you have a few years to process your thought's clearly, see theres no escaping it, fearing it would be pointless, if its your time, its your time, having said that, i want to go in my sleep looking forward to the next day.

As for the livrpool pathway thing, it started with good intent, and was hijacked to clear wards quicker, cut cost's, as it went from having to have a whole team of carers from doctors down making a joint decision on when the time was right to withdraw treatment, to a ward manager deciding whether your time had come, on a cost of further treatment basis.

 

[manxman]

Burnt that was an awful burden for a boy to carry thru to adulthood.

 

[Randall]

Through this meditation practice: Travels: Lam Rim & the Nine Point Death Meditation

If it's working for you that's cool. Everyone has their own way of dealing with things.

... one can develop an appreciation that death could come at any time. This practice helps me to be in the moment. Being in the moment develops equanimity and a number of other qualities.

One might just as easily develop an appreciation that death may not come at any moment, and that might just as easily help one to be in the moment.

It takes energy to maintain a defense mechanism. By facing a fear, you can let go of the defense mechanism and get that energy back to apply to your life.

Everything in life takes energy. I just prefer to be more optimistic. There's no reason to accept as inevitable something that hasn't happened yet. That seems like a waste of energy to me.

If folks want to know more, www.accesstoinsight.org is a good starting place. These practices are not for everyone, meditation is not suitable for everyone, but basic mindfulness meditation has many benefits.

Thanks for the link. I find that simple meditation of clearing my mind of thought and drifting through the void helps give me a quick recharge and restore clarity. So I'm sure some people can find benefit in some aspects of meditation, just like some aspects of Yoga. But I'm not convinced all Yoga is good for you just like I'm not convinced all forms of meditation are good for everyone.

 

[smcder]

If it's working for you that's cool. Everyone has their own way of dealing with things.

One might just as easily develop an appreciation that death may not come at any moment, and that might just as easily help one to be in the moment.

Everything in life takes energy. I just prefer to be more optimistic. There's no reason to accept as inevitable something that hasn't happened yet. That seems like a waste of energy to me.

Thanks for the link. I find that simple meditation of clearing my mind of thought and drifting through the void helps give me a quick recharge and restore clarity. So I'm sure some people can find benefit in some aspects of meditation, just like some aspects of Yoga. But I'm not convinced all Yoga is good for you just like I'm not convinced all forms of meditation are good for everyone.

Right ... like I said:

"These practices are not for everyone, meditation is not suitable for everyone, but basic mindfulness meditation has many benefits."

Meditation is a great tool for a quick recharge, but a nap is probably better!

It's a common misconception that meditation is clearing the mind of thought ... thoughts aren't the problem in meditation, but thinking may be. When a thought arises, instead of following it - you return to the object of attention, most commonly the breath. So each thought is an opportunity to be aware. Over time I have realized how noisy and repetitive it is in my mind and I've become less and less affected by my thoughts. This part of meditation is exactly like the training I received for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for OCD.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060987111/?tag=rockoids-20

According to Schwartz's research, the brain is physically altered by performing these exercises in the same way that it is altered by medication ... some meditation is good medication.

States of intense concentration, known as Jhanas can be attained in the course of meditation and these states can be extremely pleasant. For several days after a recent meditation session, every inhalation was pure pleasure. Of course this isn't the goal of meditation and pleasurable states pass on.

In terms of our topic, death, and being optimistic, right now I feel that the best way I can prepare for whatever happens, whether it's immortality at the press of a button, death and nothingness, death and afterlife, reincarnation ... etc, is through this practice and through what I learn about the mind in Buddhism.

 

[smcder]

When my dad died my aunt came over from Austria to see her brother into the ground. She always thought he would die on a mountain, not in a lake. As the coffin was lowered down into the pit she mumbled through tears with utter resignation and total loss, "That's it. I'm the last one." Her family of four that she had grown up in as the youngest member, a family that had just barely scraped through World War II, though different parts and people had been shattered, was now gone. She was the only lonely one left. I remember feeling her sadness as an even deeper one etched below mine as I stood staring numbly at the coffin that contained the body of my father.

The whole scene was entirely impossible for me, like carrying his coffin out of the funeral home with my brother, my uncles and his soccer buddies. But I knew it was real because my brother, mother and I had just closed the lid on his coffin an hour earlier. I felt his cold bony pale hands and said goodbye. Each part of the death process was just entirely surreal, from losing him in the water, to waiting three days for the divers to find his body, to selecting his coffin and then saying goodbye. The hardest part was the closing of the coffin. That was an unexpected permanence. So that's death, I said to myself, all empty and hollow and numb. He's gone forever. That sudden scene, magnified by the trauma of witnessing his death, was the most intense sequence of events in my life. You can't really prepare for the traumatic death.

Following the death of my neighbour who had become my substitute dad, friend and brother from cancer and the liverpool pathway I learned an appreciation for the load that death is. I only fear my own death now knowing the burden and pain it would cause my young children. The death of the parent, like the death of a child, is a life altering event. I don't want that for my own kids, way too heavy.

Loneliness for my partner - also an emptiness there, the loss of the voice that is part of your everyday call & response of living. I woud be most sad by the nightime quiet if I lost my partner at this juncture in my life. Initimate family death is profound.

Beautifully written ...

 

[smcder]

My dad [65] died 10 years before my sister [43], who died 10 months before my mother [70], who died 5 yrs ago last april.
Cancer x 3, 2 bowel 1 lung.

But none of there death certificates for cause of death said heart failure.
They say
Cause of death
A] Carcinomatosos
B] Cancer of lung


I hope i havent come over as angry at the 'system' im not, they got great care, for working class people, my sister got that new expensive wonder drug, i forget the name, that gave her 3 extra years, it isnt a cure, but it buys time.


edit.
Sorry my sister was 46, i only noticed my mistake because you quoted

No, I didn't think so at all. I generally hear good things about the managed care system in the UK and other countries. I have a friend who lives in Scotland and she has nothing but good to say about the medical care she receives - her friends try to get her to move home and she tells them she can't afford to medically.

Wonder drug for cancer ... ?

 

[smcder]

Heart-stopping. These experiences are remarkable. There is a website on which people can post their OBEs and NDEs. I could try to find it again if you are interested in posting yours. It's a research site and I know your reports would be highly valued.

Let us know if you do find that site - I'd like to see it ... is it posted in the C&P thread, maybe?

 

[manxman]

No, I didn't think so at all. I generally hear good things about the managed care system in the UK and other countries. I have a friend who lives in Scotland and she has nothing but good to say about the medical care she receives - her friends try to get her to move home and she tells them she can't afford to medically.

Wonder drug for cancer ... ?

Avastin, it was new/ish 6 years ago.

 

[smcder]

One more thing relative to the above^. We're already accustomed to two levels of ordinary waking consciousness in the distinction made by the phenomenologists between non-reflective consciousness and reflective consciousness. We get used to this in a transparent way as we're growing up, but some of us suddenly realize it in young adulthood and can find it at first somewhat destabilizing. I realized it at some point in my meditative treks up and down a large hill as I walked back and forth to the English-Philosophy Building at the University of Iowa, a few years after my OBE in Wisconsin. It shook me up quite a bit, more than the OBE had. It's amazing how little we know about our own mentality. A more enlightened society might one day provide instruction for school children about what consciousness and mind are.

@Constance wrote:

It's amazing how little we know about our own mentality. A more enlightened society might one day provide instruction for school children about what consciousness and mind are.

Since this goes to who we are, what we are and what we should do - all political, not scientific questions, I think this may always be an area with a line down the middle of it.

On the one side we can teach children about findings in neuroscience and consciousness studies but on the other side we have to talk about the implications of these findings and that's politics. No scientific finding is unambiguous in terms of how it might be applied in society. That's one of my favorite topics, what is science - and what isn't.

Would we teach something about emotions? Mindfulness and awareness?

Not to get off topic, this may belong on the C&P thread or elsewhere, but I was looking for the Author Zajonc interview and came across this interview with Adele Diamond (cognitive developmental neuroscientist and Mind and Life participant):

Adele Diamond — The Science of Attention | On Being

"Transcript: Adele Diamond — The Science of Attention | On Being

"But I agree that education needs to change. But the way your question started, which is move beyond the Industrial Age, suggested that we move forward, and a lot of what I see is that we need to look back because I think there was a lot of wisdom of previous generations of the evolutionary past of our species that we're ignoring because we tend to think that we're going to be modern and we can do better than our parents and grandparents did. But there are certain things that have been part of the human condition for thousands of years, and I think that they've probably been part of the human condition for a good reason."

 

[smcder]

Aikido. Also did some jiujutsu, kenjitu, iado, etc along the way but 99% aikido.

Iado ... interesting ... not to be found around here. I have always been interested in Aikido. Do you still practice?

 

[Burnt State]

Burnt that was an awful burden for a boy to carry thru to adulthood.

Interesting that you say that as I was almost 30 at the time of his death. But to be honest I would chart my growth into manhood as beginning right after that death, when pregnant with first child. I spent a good many months in male crisis mode: holy crap we're going to have a kid, this is way too real for me...during that time I got to re-evaluate my future fatherhood by comparing me to dad to work on personal improvement issues.

The decision to have a babe immediately followed his death. But so heavy was that death that I remember in the very early days looking at our daughter sleeping between us in bed & I asked my partner dumbly, what happens if we lose her? Without missing a beat, the instant response was, we will celebrate the time we had with her because that's all we can do.

That wisdom about life and death and removing anxiety about their connection has never left me and has dissolved my own fears around it. I think the more death you live through, the more easily you integrate your own death into the grand scheme of things. I no longer think about what I need to accomplish before I die. I'm already doing what I'm supposed to be doing, following the breath where it leads, living the role in front of me best I can.

 

[Burnt State]

... after you have a few years to process your thought's clearly, see theres no escaping it, fearing it would be pointless, if its your time, its your time, having said that, i want to go in my sleep looking forward to the next day.

Obviously you are a deep thinker, as per your usual cut to the chase clarity, as seen above in the wish for a quiet death.

But in contrast, my neighbour did not want to die half paralyzed, non-communicative, morphine laced and body racked with brain seizures, one every minute in the last hour of his death. He told me previously, during one of our many conversations about death, that he wanted to be bit by a rattlesnake while hiking on a rocky trail, to convulse in glory under a hot sun, venom coursing through the veins till his heart rattled to an explosive stop - death by nature of a different sort, what a way to go!

 

[Burnt State]

I have often been stopped in my thinking tracks at various points in my life when I wonder about what my father was confronting under water as he fought to hold his breath, to resist the explosive need to open the throat, swallow all that water and drift suddenly into darkness. What were the last thoughts, final resignations and acceptances? His last words as the water pulled him out into the mouth of the lake were Go back! It's not safe, he yelled out to me across the water. Perhaps he knew he had saved his son from his own imminent fate and that this was enough? It's a conundrum I haven't been able to let go of. Some kind of doorway that I can't get through. Time to go shoot some hoops with my own son and give up on this chain of thinking. More important things to do.

 

[manxman]

You know something i left out, is my brothers death.

Heres why, i never knew him, i was about 5/6, my sister 2yr old, my brother died at 5 months of age [cot death].

Ive often wondered what it would have been like to have my own brother, instead i chose to live the majority of my childhood with my nan and unmarried aunties and uncles of which 4 are less than 10 years older than me, my nan had 14 children, 12 survived to adulthood.

My mother was the 4th of here children that grew up, to die, since then another auntie died, 7 left, 3 in their 70s 4 in their 60s, 4 boys 3 girls.

You know something burnt, i know my mother kept a lock of Christopher's hair, and his infant hair brush, i saw them a few times as i grew up, after she died and i cleared her house out, i couldnt find that box anywhere, i would liked to have had that.

 

[Tyger]

"The Afterlife of Billy Fingers" - kinda fun. Death is after all only the transition state - the 'how' and 'when'.

LINK: The Afterlife of Billy Fingers | Facebook

Amazon Summary: "Annie Kagan is not a medium or a psychic, she did not die and come back to life; in fact, when she was awakened by her deceased brother, she thought perhaps she had gone a little crazy

"In The Afterlife of Billy Fingers: How My Bad-Boy Brother Proved to Me There's Life After Death, Kagan shares the extraordinary story of her after death communications (ADC) with her brother Billy, who began speaking to her just weeks after his unexpected death.

"One of the most detailed and profound ADC's ever recorded, Kagan's book takes the reader beyond the near-death experience. Billy's vivid, real-time account of his on-going journey through the mysteries of death will change the way you think about life. Death and your place in the Universe.

"In his foreword, Dr. Raymond Moody, author of Life after Life, explains the phenomena of walkers between the worlds, known to us since ancient times, and says that Dr. Kagan's thought-provoking account is an excellent example."