Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Well said Burnt.
I'm paraphrasing here, but Carl Sagan said that humans mating with a species from another planet would be like mating with a petunia.
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June 21, 2015 — Kathleen Marden
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
Well said Burnt.
I'm paraphrasing here, but Carl Sagan said that humans mating with a species from another planet would be like mating with a petunia.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Should I be making a joke here about the indigo flower children then? This part of the alien contact or abduction studies needs more critical analysis.
Wade pointed out some very interesting ideas regarding dreams and how these narratives involve a lot of dream like elements. Stories of meeting people in your dreams before meeting them in real life are suspicious at best. Tales of humans revolting on board a ship of an advanced species who can float people through solids and manipulate our DNA is a story written in Hollywood. That whole discussion presents ET's ship as some kind of mysterious faerie world operating outside the bounds of our reality, but apparently one that we can visit, and whose plot points are written by the human imagination and not anything very alien.
Wade brings up two other critical points which is the nature of the experience as a "hijacking of consciousness" and the pain we feel from the ordeal. This calls to mind a kind of age old rites of passage manifest by the subconscious, but for whose benefit? Just what exactly is the human brain trying to work out and what other commonalities do people who share in such experiences have? There is a kind of trauma here being experienced and repeated. There is no source trying to hide or mask anything at all, certainly nothing scientific, just the pretense of science at work: needles, samples, tests and implants. There's some painful, rigorous self-examination taking place there.
Wade pointed out some very interesting ideas regarding dreams and how these narratives involve a lot of dream like elements. Stories of meeting people in your dreams before meeting them in real life are suspicious at best. Tales of humans revolting on board a ship of an advanced species who can float people through solids and manipulate our DNA is a story written in Hollywood. That whole discussion presents ET's ship as some kind of mysterious faerie world operating outside the bounds of our reality, but apparently one that we can visit, and whose plot points are written by the human imagination and not anything very alien.
Wade brings up two other critical points which is the nature of the experience as a "hijacking of consciousness" and the pain we feel from the ordeal. This calls to mind a kind of age old rites of passage manifest by the subconscious, but for whose benefit? Just what exactly is the human brain trying to work out and what other commonalities do people who share in such experiences have? There is a kind of trauma here being experienced and repeated. There is no source trying to hide or mask anything at all, certainly nothing scientific, just the pretense of science at work: needles, samples, tests and implants. There's some painful, rigorous self-examination taking place there.
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Do we care about the trees we cut down to print books ?
Book written in DNA code | Science | The Guardian
Why should they care about us ?
Its just a matter of scale
Book written in DNA code | Science | The Guardian
Why should they care about us ?
Its just a matter of scale
Wade
FeralNormal master
But even if we were nothing more than biological thumb drives there would be a lot more to be gained by keeping it on the QT, forget anything about compassion or empathy, why turn it into a night they'll never forget?
In abduction literature there are claims that people have successfully fought off an abduction attempt...perhaps bogus...but if you want to lean toward giving the alleged abduction attempt the benefit of a doubt then this singular fact should start to cross the aliens mind. if you have a mission to accomplish, stealth is always the best method why bother with all the unnecessary drama !?
I always fancied the concept behind Dark City, if one wanted to consider we were kept for the benefit of a superior race, the last thing the strangers needed was that one of the cattle was aware of them.
In abduction literature there are claims that people have successfully fought off an abduction attempt...perhaps bogus...but if you want to lean toward giving the alleged abduction attempt the benefit of a doubt then this singular fact should start to cross the aliens mind. if you have a mission to accomplish, stealth is always the best method why bother with all the unnecessary drama !?
I always fancied the concept behind Dark City, if one wanted to consider we were kept for the benefit of a superior race, the last thing the strangers needed was that one of the cattle was aware of them.
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
I agree about the idea of indifference but why pretend to be covert at all if they have relative omnipotence technologically? It seems that when it comes to health sciences they are apparently well behind us, except for those Dr. Mengele tricks where they are detaching people's arms and then sticking them back on again. This is a medeival torture chamber that simply does not match the rest of their technological prowess. That's where most of the odd limitations seen in some abduction narratives seem to be flaws of human imagination as opposed to a commentary on the technological capacities of an advanced alien race.
I think if you look at technological scales they should be able to get all the wonderful DNA, sperm, eggs, whatever the hell they want without us so much as blinking an eye in pain or remembering any of it. Either the torture is purposeful on their part, which should make everyone really afraid - no space brother there, or it's purposeful on our part, and then people need to reflect more themselves on such expericences and why these commonalities of medically invasive torture and probing sexual obsession are present.
Pigsinzen
Skilled Investigator
May I also suggest "Give us a thumbnail" ? or Gene takes a drink every time he alludes to or mentions directly the words "Roswell Slides". I understand the topic is relevant at the moment but aren't they beating a dead horse (insert snippy joke here).
Kathleen Marden came out swinging in my opinion and I respect her for that. I'm still listening to the episode when I have free time so I'll have to my opinion (wow almost said judgment) for later.
This is a great topic to allow your imagination to roam in, since there's no proof this is real UAP phenomena.
Perhaps, the mantids and reptilians are highly advanced crypto terrestrial species who've allowed the Grays to study and experiment on us.
Perhaps the Mantids or Reptilians encountered during abductions are observers to ensure we're treated somewhat humanely.
OOOO!!!! Or, the Ms and Rs have contracted the Grays to accelerate our evolution before we destroy the planets ecology!
Perhaps, the mantids and reptilians are highly advanced crypto terrestrial species who've allowed the Grays to study and experiment on us.
Perhaps the Mantids or Reptilians encountered during abductions are observers to ensure we're treated somewhat humanely.
OOOO!!!! Or, the Ms and Rs have contracted the Grays to accelerate our evolution before we destroy the planets ecology!
Actually there are several issues to consider.
Are the people who report these experiences telling the truth? It appears that all or most are, so...
Does what they report accurately reflect the experience, or are their memories altered or so alien they cannot understand what really happened? I've suggested that the belief that abduction experiences are sometimes buried with a screen memory doesn't consider that the screen memory may be the abduction experience itself.
Once we determine that — if we determine that — perhaps we can consider what's really going on. Does it involve some sort of communication with an alien race, an Earth-based race, or something else entirely?
Are the people who report these experiences telling the truth? It appears that all or most are, so...
Does what they report accurately reflect the experience, or are their memories altered or so alien they cannot understand what really happened? I've suggested that the belief that abduction experiences are sometimes buried with a screen memory doesn't consider that the screen memory may be the abduction experience itself.
Once we determine that — if we determine that — perhaps we can consider what's really going on. Does it involve some sort of communication with an alien race, an Earth-based race, or something else entirely?
ChrisJohnsen
Paranormal Adept
Yes. Great point, Gene. You just blew my mind a little bit. Could this be something else entirely and the "alien encounter" is just a planted memory to divert from the truth of the "real" experience? Wild stuff.
It's what I've been saying on the show for a while. Why assume that what experiencers recall truly represents what actually occurred?
ChrisJohnsen
Paranormal Adept
Indeed you have, Gene. I think just reading it as laid out in your comment made it hit home more significantly for me.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
People may indeed be telling the truth, or telling the one they believe to be true, but whether or not this memory has any external source beyond the the internal psychology and cultural scripting of an individual is still up for grabs no? I'm not sure we can so quickly take the next step of there being accuracy in these reports or that the memory concerns any external agent, let alone that agent be alien, or then be a controlled memory, or screened experience.
While some people have produced some very, highly compelling narratives, so are the highly compelling narratives of those who have directly faked their stories. How can we actually know the difference between a great story and actual facts when the evidence is thin at best for alien abductions. Even the best stories like Walton's has limited confirmation, or the Emilcin case from Poland which also has some limited secondary witnesses, do not provide ready confirmation. But their stories, like the Hill's are absolutely incredible, wild and fulfill all our high strange desires. What really happened in these events, and was anything non-human involved, is still to be determined imho.
F
Fcseven
Guest
It would be interesting to hear Kathleens opinion on the DMT fariy phenomenon. Some who are into using drugs of that kind report seeing small beings. The stories are weird because the beings are reportedly startled that they are noticed. Almost like there is some kind of cloaking device the user of the drug is allowed to see through.
LatentCauses
Skilled Investigator
Great guest - really on top of the material, and had a pretty good response on most issues IMHO.
No more up for grabs than any other UFO encounter whether it be CE1, CE2 or CE3. There are numerous abduction reports that are not reliant on any form of hypnotherapy for recall, have no connection to a sleep state (hypnopompic or hypnogic), and have elements of corroboration. Betty and Barney Hill are the case in point. Or take the Kelly Cahill abduction outside of Melbourne, Australia 1993 - The Kelly Cahill Abduction Her book is well worth reading, if for no other reason than three cars travelling independently on the highway all saw the craft in the field and pulled over to have a look.
Or any of Dr Carla Turner's books ( very pleased to hear her get a mention, albeit brief, on the show as she is almost always overlooked these days) - she would dispute any aspect of cultural scripting to the correlation between her and her family's sightings of silver craft and the inevitable unrelentingly negative abduction experiences that followed. Her experiences were enough to turn her from an English lecturer to a full-time campaigner for awareness of the abduction phenomena.
The point that I'm trying to make is that there is nothing inherently different about the abduction experience from any other witnesses account of a UFO that passes the debunker's triumvirate of mistake, madness or fraud. Assuming the witness is truthful, and mental illness or hallucinogenic substances play no role, then sustained waking experiences of missing time, perhaps corroborated, and the transportation to a "craft" of some description, and interactions with greys/nordics/mantids etc etc etc bring us squarely into the realm of "anecdotal" evidence. And this, of course, is the connecting quality of all UFO - dare I say paranormal- experiences – it will never pass muster for the scientific method, as it cannot be replicated on command, but as Jaques Vallee says we must let the witnesses speak.
Why look so hard for interior mental explanations for the phenomena when we know of no other (save possibly for some types of epilepsy) equivalent mental states? This strikes me as a convenient diversion from the clear correlation between people, interaction with "craft" and the very strange but essentially consistent narrative that people tell after the event. If I had my way Id move the discussion from whether these events happen or are "real" to an examination between the similarities between the people who suffer them and the circumstances under which they arise.
No more up for grabs than any other UFO encounter whether it be CE1, CE2 or CE3. There are numerous abduction reports that are not reliant on any form of hypnotherapy for recall, have no connection to a sleep state (hypnopompic or hypnogic), and have elements of corroboration. Betty and Barney Hill are the case in point. Or take the Kelly Cahill abduction outside of Melbourne, Australia 1993 - The Kelly Cahill Abduction Her book is well worth reading, if for no other reason than three cars travelling independently on the highway all saw the craft in the field and pulled over to have a look.
Or any of Dr Carla Turner's books ( very pleased to hear her get a mention, albeit brief, on the show as she is almost always overlooked these days) - she would dispute any aspect of cultural scripting to the correlation between her and her family's sightings of silver craft and the inevitable unrelentingly negative abduction experiences that followed. Her experiences were enough to turn her from an English lecturer to a full-time campaigner for awareness of the abduction phenomena.
The point that I'm trying to make is that there is nothing inherently different about the abduction experience from any other witnesses account of a UFO that passes the debunker's triumvirate of mistake, madness or fraud. Assuming the witness is truthful, and mental illness or hallucinogenic substances play no role, then sustained waking experiences of missing time, perhaps corroborated, and the transportation to a "craft" of some description, and interactions with greys/nordics/mantids etc etc etc bring us squarely into the realm of "anecdotal" evidence. And this, of course, is the connecting quality of all UFO - dare I say paranormal- experiences – it will never pass muster for the scientific method, as it cannot be replicated on command, but as Jaques Vallee says we must let the witnesses speak.
Why look so hard for interior mental explanations for the phenomena when we know of no other (save possibly for some types of epilepsy) equivalent mental states? This strikes me as a convenient diversion from the clear correlation between people, interaction with "craft" and the very strange but essentially consistent narrative that people tell after the event. If I had my way Id move the discussion from whether these events happen or are "real" to an examination between the similarities between the people who suffer them and the circumstances under which they arise.
Agreed Burnt State, but Im not holding my breath. How many anecdotal stories does it take to change a light bulb? I have no doubt that something is going on, but my money is on it being so weird we dont have the language or the science for it. Which brings me to Gene's point about screen memories.
Precisely. The whole thing smacks of bizarre theatre - throw in a pinch of mythology, some pop culture, aspects of your worst nightmares, and a couple of environmental home truths. We have absolutely no way of knowing that the whole thing isnt simply an extraction of our own memories made into some form of immersive experience for us to be transformed /traumatised by. Back to looking at the circumstances under which they arise rather than trying to get a handle on what they are.
Read Supernatural by Graham Hancock - the whole book is about this very topic.
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LatentCauses
Skilled Investigator
Because the game involves everyone playing, and having some recall of the experience - irrespective of whether that memory bears any correlation with what actually occurred. And that assumes that lying prone on the bed whilst an aspect of our consciousness is off suffering a rectal probe even gets to be called an "occurrence" Whitley Streiber would probably say that it was - in fact he calls it rape.
kanakaris
Paranormal Adept
Very true.On the other hand , everything is vibration.
Wade
FeralNormal master
And yet if you look at the older stories...and accept them as truth...apparently the abductors used to invite people aboard for tea and cookies (or maybe a little nookie), why the change in behavior? Would these be screened memories as well ? Is it because in the 50's our society was more genteel and we expected to be offered tea and cookies (or a little nookie?)when invited aboard a craft and now we expect to get raped?
I know what you're getting at as others (including @red_pill_junkie) has mentioned the same and to me this still doesn't make sense, IF the intent of these alleged abductors is to use our DNA as storage or if they are tinkering with our DNA as part as an ongoing program that started back in our earliest beginnings. Now if you want to suggest that the abductors main intent is to traumatize a person and scared them emotionally for life including possibly causing them to neglect their responsibilities towards their family their jobs and themselves well then that would make more sense to me, there is a path there, although it's still hard to believe.
If this was part of a conditioning program then apparently some of us are being conditioned to become more aggressive or maybe much more submissive because if this process happened to me I would probably go to one of those extremes, as such this could lead to collateral damage. I mean other people could suffer due to the change in my behavior, would this also be part of the intent of the abductors to break up my family unit because I could no longer hold it together or would this be an unfortunate unintended consequence? btw in my case I have no family unit I was merely using myself as an example but those conditions would still apply.
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ZenBug
Paranormal Novice
Did anyone else do a pace-palm when Chris said he was "racking his brain" trying to think how someone could hoax that spinning-magnet-on-the-car-hood event that Kathleen recounted?
Once again, Chris is unwilling to put any critical thought into the veracity of a story. Wondering how it could be hoaxed is an unnecessary step. It's far more likely that Kathleen is either embellishing the story (she does have an agenda to do so, since she's in the UFO industry now) or - and I suspect this is really the case - she's misremembering an event that took place when she was a child...54 YEARS AGO!
Instead of asking yourself, "How could this be done?" try asking, "Did this really happen?"
Once again, Chris is unwilling to put any critical thought into the veracity of a story. Wondering how it could be hoaxed is an unnecessary step. It's far more likely that Kathleen is either embellishing the story (she does have an agenda to do so, since she's in the UFO industry now) or - and I suspect this is really the case - she's misremembering an event that took place when she was a child...54 YEARS AGO!
Instead of asking yourself, "How could this be done?" try asking, "Did this really happen?"