Ufology and Conservatism.... my apologies...

[Ezechiel]

Recent post of mine had a bit too aggressive tone towards conservatism.
https://www.theparacast.com/forum/edgar-mitchell-roswell-again-t5487.html

I wish to apologize to whoever might have been offended. I should have been more specific... hard core extremism was the target. (And that applies to the left hand of the scale too )

When you bring up stuff like 'UFOs', the cultural background/ideology of your audience kicks in and that's something I haven't seen discussed much around here. Addressing that issue is very divisive... and IMHO definitely a core factor in the non-disclosure attitude of the US government concerning this subject

When you have a population of over 300 million with very diverse cultural backgroungs, respecting cultural diversity means being patient

 

[Xylo]

I agree that fundamentalist extremism of any type tends to obscure vision and obfuscate the truth IF that truth is contradictory to the belief system. I don't think I can attribute, in full, the non-disclosure of the US government regarding UFOs to that. I think it's a combination of many things; in fact I think that the government probably knows a lot less than we imagine about the phenomena.

Do I think that they may have captured or crashed debris: yes. But I don't believe that they have the slightest clue how to operate it, or especially to reverse engineer it.

Back to topic (sorry for the rant): I tend to avoid the discussion of religion on these boards in any personal sort of way, as I am an atheist who was raised as a fundamentalist. I think that all of us, myself included, need to think before we post, even if for a 30 second cooldown. Mostly I think that because of the non-sensical replies we humans tend to make when we're miffed.

 

[Cailean]

I think that the government probably knows a lot less than we imagine about the phenomena.

Do I think that they may have captured or crashed debris: yes. But I don't believe that they have the slightest clue how to operate it, or especially to reverse engineer it.

I think you're right here.

 

[Ezechiel]

Do I think that they may have captured or crashed debris: yes. But I don't believe that they have the slightest clue how to operate it, or especially to reverse engineer it.

I look at it a different way. If you consider the possibility that a variety of races at different stages of evolution are floating out there. You're bound to have some that are technologically close... making the gap easier to bridge.

Isn't it also reasonable to think that some races interested in us because they view us as a potential future threat, would logically not be too far ahead and sporadically crash in our deserts LOL... A 14 billion year old universe offers quite a range evolutionary scenarios at different stages of advancement.

IMHO, fixating on extremely advanced races that use technologies beyond our current comprehension of the universe is a mistake. There logically should be a full range of weird stuff out there from Model T's to trans-dimensional hyperspace craft.

 

[Trajanus]

When you bring up stuff like 'UFOs', the cultural background/ideology of your audience kicks in and that's something I haven't seen discussed much around here. Addressing that issue is very divisive... and IMHO definitely a core factor in the non-disclosure attitude of the US government concerning this subject

Of course. As others have noted, disclosure could severely impact present society. Basically it's fine IMO to suggest conservatism has much it do with the coverup. Who would be more resistant to the prospect of major change than those most wedded to the present or past (conservatives)?

 

[Trajanus]

Do I think that they may have captured or crashed debris: yes. But I don't believe that they have the slightest clue how to operate it, or especially to reverse engineer it.

Well, by now they may have some marginal capabilities in that area. But you're probably correct that the government is clueless in some ways notably ET motives.

Back to topic (sorry for the rant): I tend to avoid the discussion of religion on these boards in any personal sort of way, as I am an atheist who was raised as a fundamentalist.

Congrats for the self-deprogramming. Sure, religion can be a touchy subject. Just last week I took on about six "holies" on another UFO board, and mowed'em all down, to my satisfaction at least. Still it's no fun to be a lone voice of reason...

 

[Trajanus]

I look at it a different way. If you consider the possibility that a variety of races at different stages of evolution are floating out there. You're bound to have some that are technologically close... making the gap easier to bridge.

I don't know..I'd assume any race able to get here would be way ahead. Our own scientists basically don't have any clear idea how to travel to other star systems the way UFOs do.

Isn't it also reasonable to think that some races interested in us because they view us as a potential future threat, would logically not be too far ahead and sporadically crash in our deserts LOL

If they think in terms of the really long haul, any race might view us that way. Maybe ANY system would suffer occasional crashes.

... A 14 billion year old universe offers quite a range evolutionary scenarios at different stages of advancement.

But it's not at all clear that intelligent life, if any, could've arisen at a MUCH earlier stage than us. The oldest stars appeared before nucleosynthesis could provide much of the requisite heavier elements for life like carbon.

 

[Ezechiel]

The oldest stars appeared before nucleosynthesis could provide much of the requisite heavier elements for life like carbon.

True, supernovaes are a pre-requisite. However the possibility of non carbon-based life forms (ex. silicon) has not been eliminated yet... but still highly unlikely.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/09/oldest_supernova/
Astronomers from the University of California have spied a supernova which lit up the early universe 10.7 billion years ago - 1.5 billion years before the previous record holder and just 3 billions years after the big bang.

Current best estimate: 14 - 3 = 11 billion years for carbon.
Our solar system formed about 4 to 5 billion years ago.... so we could assume that older stars supporting the evolution of carbon based life-forms may have up to a 6 billion year advantage on us. Still spectacular.

 

[Ezechiel]

Just last week I took on about six "holies" on another UFO board, and mowed'em all down, to my satisfaction at least. Still it's no fun to be a lone voice of reason...

Its an exercise in relativity.

If your point of reference for 'the voice of reason' is a based in religion... you'll usually paint the UFO experience in biblical/spiritual colors and more than likely bring in extra dimensionality.

If you're a hard core scientist 'a la Stanton Friedman', you'll be based on hard tested grounds and limit your extrapolations to human experience (nuts and bolts).

The phenomenon compels both camps. We are faced with higher technologies/sentience. Do we kneel in awe and embrace our potential creators or do we rationally decode the phenomenon to the best of our earth-based capacities ?

Who should be de-programmed ?

 

[Ezechiel]

I don't know..I'd assume any race able to get here would be way ahead. Our own scientists basically don't have any clear idea how to travel to other star systems the way UFOs do.

The way UFO's do ? Displacement strategies/solutions are a plenty. Just look at our current ideas stemming from barely 200 years of technological evolution.

Its not mandatory to impose a faster than light standard on all travel for all races. You could have anything ranging from solar wind sails to fusion propulsion up to space/time distortion.

Humans crossed the oceans with wind power first... Given our cosmological context, it would be normal to expect a variety of strategies floating out there.

Once again, framing the entire UFO phenomenon with the attributes of extremely advanced races only is a mistake.

 

[Trajanus]

Current best estimate: 14 - 3 = 11 billion years for carbon.

It began to appear early but heavier elements still don't seem abundant in Population II systems. But I guess if a single Population II system or a few were well endowed by luck they might've colonized much of the galaxy long ago.

Our solar system formed about 4 to 5 billion years ago...

4.75 IIRC.

 

[Trajanus]

Its not mandatory to impose a faster than light standard on all travel for all races. You could have anything ranging from solar wind sails to fusion propulsion up to space/time distortion.

I'd assume that, had the more primitive methods remained in use, even nongovernment astronomers could see them coming e.g. reflected light from sails or bright exhaust from fusion rockets.

 

[Trajanus]

Do we kneel in awe and embrace our potential creators or do we rationally decode the phenomenon to the best of our earth-based capacities ?

The latter. Given our rate of progress, it shouldn't take all that long, even if they're still well ahead.

 

[Ezechiel]

I'd assume that, had the more primitive methods remained in use, even nongovernment astronomers could see them coming e.g. reflected light from sails or bright exhaust from fusion rockets.

You need very long term observations, and the mandate to be looking for things that we have no real specifcations for

For example, you need to define what size sails would be reasonably adequate for interstellar travel... and you need to build the kind of instrument that would be used to observe/detect them

 

[Trajanus]

You need very long term observations, and the mandate to be looking for things that we have no real specifcations for

For example, you need to define what size sails would be reasonably adequate for interstellar travel... and you need to build the kind of instrument that would be used to observe/detect them

Well if these things are transporting ETs or UFOs here, they should get pretty close. I'd assume enormous sails would be essential to collect enough power for interstellar travel.

 

[Ezechiel]

Well if these things are transporting ETs or UFOs here, they should get pretty close. I'd assume enormous sails would be essential to collect enough power for interstellar travel.

The idea is not to collect power but to use solar wind... but you might want some panels to convert starlight to electricity while you're at it.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/05/25/solar.sail/index.html

Twice as large as the Superdome

Solar sails would require a thinness that rivals cellophane, the strength to withstand intense solar heat and barrages of micrometeors, and an extremely large surface area: 440 yards (402 meters) wide, twice the diameter of the Louisiana Superdome. A highly reflective coating would harness the momentum of photons streaming from the sun.
Constructing the sail is daunting but doable, NASA scientists said. Researchers believe they're close to breakthroughs with lightweight composites, including a carbon fiber material developed by Energy Science Laboratories in San Diego, California. Its density is the equivalent of a raisin flattened to 1 square yard (0.8 square meter), according to NASA.
"It looks like it has the right thermal properties, so it can go near the sun and not overheat," Johnson said.
To generate serious speed, a sail probe must first travel to the vicinity of the sun, where it juices up on solar photons. On its way out of the system, it would cast off the sail near Jupiter, where the stream of sun particles peters out


This proposal is relatively small and would be hard to detect (using our current technologies)

 

[Trajanus]

This proposal is relatively small and would be hard to detect (using our current technologies)

Even when it arrives here? AFAIK all UFO reports appear to involve different and more advanced technology.

 

[Ezechiel]

Even when it arrives here? AFAIK all UFO reports appear to involve different and more advanced technology.

You forgot to read the part where the sail is cast off. Solar wind peters out near Jupiter.... At that point a sail is useless and only the inner package flying out at breakneck speed (without sail) continues its journey to a nearby star.

Statistically, you're more likely to find/witness advanced stuff from races that have resolved space/time/displacement issues. Getting/witnessing packages from races at or near our level of advancement would be extremely rare. They require alot of ressources and would likely be probes... hey we haven't touched the moon for 40 years

The O'Hare incident is likely that kind of a probe. Weird structured airborne activity at the busiest airport on the planet likely attracted attention and justified an investigation.


Here would be a NASA-like mission plan to investigate:

1. Drop down probe near ground level
2. Capture/record action taking place
3. Shoot back up outside earths atmosphere
4. Transmit the information and self-destruct

I'm assuming that races at our level (or near) of advancement would be paranoid, take every precaution, and build in self-destruct mechanisms.

.... wouldn't you be ?

 

[Trajanus]

Statistically, you're more likely to find/witness advanced stuff from races that have resolved space/time/displacement issues. Getting/witnessing packages from races at or near our level of advancement would be extremely rare.

Undoubtedly. I don't know if the idea of various levels of development (among interstellar spacefarers) out there at once is credible. Every nation on Earth will try to get the best and latest in technology if at all possible. I mean, how do the producers of relatively primitive gear compete with the state of the art firms? No doubt the latter would be happy to get all the business and drive all the horse and buggy firms out of business.

The O'Hare incident is likely that kind of a probe.

Seemed as advanced as most UFOs. It did shoot up through clouds (instead of just disappearing) but AFAIK, it didn't use rockets or any propulsion system we'd recognize.

I'm assuming that races at our level (or near) of advancement would be paranoid, take every precaution, and build in self-destruct mechanisms.

Maybe the advanced races would. Capturing a relatively primitive vehicle wouldn't tell us as much.

 

[Ezechiel]

About O'Hare

Seemed as advanced as most UFOs. It did shoot up through clouds (instead of just disappearing) but AFAIK, it didn't use rockets or any propulsion system we'd recognize.

If you're a nuts and bots guy.... the weirder the behavior, the higher the tech (as in: we can't decode or correlate it with our current tech yet).

This thing should have been completely stealthy... it apparently had a reflective underside and the object was able to totally eliminate the water vapor (clouds) above it as it fled back outside our atmosphere. Getting a proper definition of 'gravity' should unlock many new crafts with similar capabilities (IMHO, a few decades away)

It makes sense to expect various levels of development out there... Don't forget that we as observers have had at most, a 50 to 60 year window of observation with a proper scientific mindset relatively free of religious taint

LOL