UFO entities' actions - why the repetition?

[Gil Bavel]

Gene:

In the last Paracast email update, I saw the following:

"Indeed, the possibility of deception on the part of UFO entities is quite clear if you consider their actions over the decades. There are, for example, a host of situations where these entities appear to be collecting soil samples. Just how many samples do they require before they have the data they need? If you take our own pathetic space program as an example, it seems unlikely that an advanced race would actually send living creatures to perform such mundane tasks, when robotic probes could accomplish the same functions with far less expense (assuming the aliens have a monetary system of course) and safety."

The same question is often asked about UFO abductees--"How much sperm and ova do the aliens need? Why do they keep doing the same processes over and over again?

I wanted to take this opportunity to point out that when biology students dissect frogs, fetal pigs, etc., and when vivisection is done to animals to test new shampoo products, and so forth, they run these same "tests" over and over even though they know the results. Remove a rabbit's tear ducts, drop some shampoo in it's eye so it can't wash it out with tears, and see what happens. This is done day after day, month after month, year after year, for decades now.

My point is, that, aside from the fact that it's extremely difficult to know at this stage what the aliens' motives are--they are completely inscrutable--the precedent for the same kind of activity on our own planet has been set for many, many years.

The same can be said of scientists that go out and shoot an animal with a tranquilizer dart, bring it down, punch a hole in its ear, tag it, and release it into the wild so that they can track its movements.

I realize that your point had to do with soil samples--but the same question often comes up regarding abductees.

To answer your question, I'd submit that it's possible that either the field trips are taking place, and the teachers are showing a new generation of Grays (or production line) every time, how to take the soil samples or bovine enzymes, or human tissue; or, that it could be that different ET races are performing largely the same field studies.

 

[CapnG]

Is the foundation of science not repeatability? Why should alien science be different?

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I wonder if time dilation plays any roll. Several decades to us, 3 weeks to them sort of thing.

 

[fitzbew88]

I wonder if time dilation plays any roll. Several decades to us, 3 weeks to them sort of thing.

I don't understand...how would this explain repetitive sample gathering?

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I wonder if time dilation plays any roll. Several decades to us, 3 weeks to them sort of thing.

I don't understand...how would this explain repetitive sample gathering?

It isn't as repetitive if it's only a few weeks to them.

 

[Gareth]

I wanted to take this opportunity to point out that when biology students dissect frogs, fetal pigs, etc., and when vivisection is done to animals to test new shampoo products, and so forth, they run these same "tests" over and over even though they know the results. Remove a rabbit's tear ducts, drop some shampoo in it's eye so it can't wash it out with tears, and see what happens. This is done day after day, month after month, year after year, for decades now.

Well thats just fucked up.

On the human - animal analogy, as compelling as it is I think it has one major flaw. All this shit we fo to animals has basically zero regard for their 'feelings' or 'opinions' or anything else like. Why? Because animals are stupid. They dont posses intelligence comparable to humans.

However I dont think the same relationship applies between humans and the 'aliens'. Sure, their intelligence compared to ours is probably even greater than the human-animal gap, BUT humans do at least have enough intelligence that I think to treat the study of us in the same way as we treat animals just wouldnt make sense.

I get that the aliens are exponentially smarter.... but the fact is humans are shit loads smarter than animals. Youre not going to happen upon a great white shark thats sitting on a bench listening to an iPod while trying to write a thesis on the history of physics.

The gap may be the same or greater, but were dealing with different starting points.

 

[cindysue]

I get that the aliens are exponentially smarter.... but the fact is humans are shit loads smarter than animals. Youre not going to happen upon a great white shark thats sitting on a bench listening to an iPod while trying to write a thesis on the history of physics.

The gap may be the same or greater, but were dealing with different starting points.

How can we be so sure about that? To these entities, humans "sitting on a bench listening to an iPod while trying to write a thesis on the history of physics" may be equivalent to an ape sitting on a rock eating a banana while doing sign language (or maybe not quite that intelligent).

My point being that we have no conception of how they view us, nor is it relevant in this case how much more intelligent than us they are. They may not value intelligent life in the same way that we do.

Besides, the fear of death is a human concept. The instinct to survive is another story…

 

[David Biedny]

Humans are better than animals, huh?

I don't buy it.

First off, we ARE animals, so get over it. You have eyes, ears, a nose, a heart, an anus and digestive track, like just about every other animal on the planet. Our supposed "superior" intelligence has yielded little of lasting value, outside of music and art, IMO.

If we're so smart, then WHY are we pushing ourselves to the brink of self-destruction?

Why can't we learn to live in harmony with the planet?

Why are we the one species that seems to kill for pleasure?

Are animals capable of the kind of gratuitous cruelty that we inflict on each other every day?

As far as we know, aliens might consider a dolphin or whale to be a superior lifeform than humans. Most animals seem to have reached an equilibrium with their ecosystems. Humans, on the other hand, destroy their ecosystems and expect their faceless God to forgive them.

A non-human being might look at us and just think that we're violent, crude, shallow, self-obsessed monkeys. And that we're beneath them in every way.

Or not.

dB

 

[CapnG]

Well said, David, except for one little comment:

Why are we the one species that seems to kill for pleasure?

Are animals capable of the kind of gratuitous cruelty that we inflict on each other every day?

I take it you're not a "cat person"? Cat's entire lives revolve around napping and toying with other creatures before killing them. But this is not a contrarian observation vis-a-vis your arguments, in fact this sort of behaviour only reinforeces the notion (to me at least) that we are still just animals.

 

[David Biedny]

Well said, David, except for one little comment:

Why are we the one species that seems to kill for pleasure?

Are animals capable of the kind of gratuitous cruelty that we inflict on each other every day?

I take it you're not a "cat person"? Cat's entire lives revolve around napping and toying with other creatures before killing them. But this is not a contrarian observation vis-a-vis your arguments, in fact this sort of behaviour only reinforeces the notion (to me at least) that we are still just animals.

Actually, I'm a lifelong cat person, point well taken.

So do cats kill from instinct? Do WE kill in response to instinct? Does the cat out of malice?

dB

 

[Brian Now]

A non-human being might look at us and just think that we're violent, crude, shallow, self-obsessed monkeys. And that we're beneath them in every way.

You're working under the opinion that humans are somehow remarkable...in this case remarkably bad. Anything we are and do would have to be classed as natural because, like you said, we're just animals too.
Many species would destroy themselves through overpopulation if it wasn't for predators "thinning the herd" so to speak. We just live unchecked at the moment. Speaking of predators, without the need to outsmart them would humanity have evolved to what it is? We're a product of a dog-eat-dog world on this planet and it's pretty unsurprising it still lingers in the human brain.

If any non-human entities visited Earth and saw us they would probably not be surprised what we're doing, especially not if they have been around a while.
My question is..if they're so advanced why are they doing any physical tests on the level of a highschool biology class?

 

[Gareth]

I totally see your points guys... but the difference with listening to an iPod and eating a banana is simple: An ipod is a comples piece of electronics while the banana grows on the tree behind me. But what does that mean in the greater scheme of things? Nothing... I realise that.

However another way to look at what I was trying to say in the other post would be to visualise intelligence as a continuum with the shark at point 'c' - the human at 'h' - and the alien at 't'. So while the gap in bigger there are unique properties at each point in the continuum that would preclude and determine certain things... For instance: humans communicate within one another in a much more complex way. We differentiate intellectual pursuits with those of emotional and physical and all the rest... etc

I dont know, just a thought. What do you guys think? Am I totally off?

 

[CapnG]

So do cats kill from instinct? Do WE kill in response to instinct? Does the cat out of malice?

I have this theory that cruelty is a factor of luxury. In the wild, predators tend to be more business like in their killing, go for the jugular, no mucking about. A house cat rarely has to work to be fed however, so it chooses instead to amuse itself by idly toying with it's prey, often not even bothering to eat it's kill. Why?

Well it still has the hardwired ability to hunt and kill. It therefore also has a need to express that instinctive drive but has long since divorced this need to hunt from the concept of survival through successive genertations of domestication.

That's cats and that's US. Still reacting to instinctive drives that we haven't actually needed for centuries but that I suspect we will still be stuck with millenia from now.

I totally see your points guys... but the difference with listening to an iPod and eating a banana is simple: An ipod is a comples piece of electronics while the banana grows on the tree behind me.

Well, yes and no. From OUR perspective they look that way but from the perspective of a super-advanced species that has both a complete understanding of biology on a DNA level AND a complete understanding of electronics on a level so complex it would appear to us as magic, it may appear as simply two species of primate interacting with their environment.

 

[7 String]

If we remove ourselves from the self appointed role of superior beings, and place ourselves back in the food chain as animals, and realize each group of animals has it's own intelligence then we can humbly admit to our own actions.

For example: look at what humans do in the name of science as mentioned above with rabbits etc...
We assume most animals have no thoughts they just respond to stimulus and go with instinct. We "Assume". Imagine what goes on in the minds of whales, sharks, dolphins, lions, bears all the animals that we've been capturing for years, placing implants into them for study. We follow them we "abduct them if you will". Imagine in their minds how far out that is, they would be unable to explain their experience let alone the technology. To them it makes no sense to why we do what we do over and over again, it's beyond the scope of explanation.

The same can happen with us, we assume we have all the answer and have a great understanding of how things work. 200 years ago flight was assumed impossible, meteors were thought to be caused by lighting hitting the ground and shooting rocks up in the air. Rocks don't fall from the sky? We may just be part of a cosmic joke and we just don't get the punch line.

~A

 

[Tommy Allison]

Humans are better than animals, huh?

I don't buy it.

First off, we ARE animals, so get over it. You have eyes, ears, a nose, a heart, an anus and digestive track, like just about every other animal on the planet. Our supposed "superior" intelligence has yielded little of lasting value, outside of music and art, IMO.

If we're so smart, then WHY are we pushing ourselves to the brink of self-destruction?

Why can't we learn to live in harmony with the planet?

Why are we the one species that seems to kill for pleasure?

Are animals capable of the kind of gratuitous cruelty that we inflict on each other every day?

As far as we know, aliens might consider a dolphin or whale to be a superior lifeform than humans. Most animals seem to have reached an equilibrium with their ecosystems. Humans, on the other hand, destroy their ecosystems and expect their faceless God to forgive them.

A non-human being might look at us and just think that we're violent, crude, shallow, self-obsessed monkeys. And that we're beneath them in every way.

Or not.

dB

The only people who kill for pleasure are mental defectives. The people who hunt animals and eat them, are doing their part to help the animal population keep its numbers in check. Without man, Deer would run wild everywhere, and starve to death in the winter. We see that here in Minnesota all the time. Deer are literally over populated.

We kill animals to eat them. In that regard we live in harmony. If you're talking about cows, chickens, lobsters and all other manner of animal, not counting the plant world, it's about who's highest on the food chain. We do indeed live in harmony with this planet because we DIE, and then become one with it. Last time I checked nothing gets out of life alive.

We burned trees and ate animals during the pleistoscene. We've been doing it for as long as we've been alive, and if you think we don't cohabitate with nature the same way we always have, then you'd be mistaken. Humanity has ALWAYS been this way. Living with nature is one thing, living like an ape is something else. We were never meant to live as the animals do.

We create all kinds of reasons to kill each other, most of which revolve around material wealth. Every war has been about taking what the other guy has. It's easier to steal, than to create. It's easier to kill someone for their money, than to ask them for a job.

All the world's problems revolve around a small contigent of parasites bleeding the world dry of wealth, because inside they are devoid of any redeeming spirit. Greed is what drives their lives, and by that alone they would happily destroy all that you are, to take what little you have. This is why oil companies have stifled clean and free energy alternatives, because if some college professor stumbled upon a means to make cars run without oil products, they'd be killed or marginalized.

A great analogy is the evolution of computers versus cars. The same could be said of the healthcare industry. You know all too well about that first hand. Greed drives everything, and what's worse than greed? Apathy.

You and I had a discussion about why the world is gravitating towards this idiocracy, and you hit it on the head. People would rather take the path of least resistance. It's easier to settle for less, and put up with more, than it is to take a stand on anything.

When you stand up, you are a tall blade of grass waiting to get clipped by the lawnmower called life. People are cowards by and large, and will never take a stand against anything of real meaning. That's why nothing is going to change for a very long time, well past the time you and I are dead and gone my friend.

Humanity will eventually reach equilibrium with the world. Once we've left this planet, and have started to move out to the stars. If you recall, we only recognize what we have, after horrifying loss. THAT is why humanity will eventually get it.

 

[Gil Bavel]

Tommy:

Stop holding back, brother.

Tell us what you really think.

 

[David Biedny]

Tommy, as usual, you make some excellent points.

I've gotta say, looking at what passes for "intelligent discussion" on other paranormal-related forums on the internet, it's posts like Tommy's that make me proud that all of you are here, engaging in thoughtful, insightful discourse.

So while I largely agree that the humans who want to kill things gratuitously are mentally ill, look at the boatloads of kids who would rather kill stuff in the virtual world of videogames, than create things - art, music - in the real world. Is this mental illness built into our minds? Is nature doing it's job, programming us to be able to kill things for pleasure? I wonder.

While part of me tries to be optimistic about our future as a species, Tommy, I really don't think we're gonna make it in the long run. Greed and vanity will be our undoing, how I so very much would love to be wrong.

dB

 

[Don Keyhoe-Ti]

Aliens behave in ways we don't understand, therefore they must be paranormal not extraterrestrial????????????????

 

[Gil Bavel]

Great points, David. I'm not only a cat person, and an atheist, but a vegetarian for moral reasons, and anti-nuclear proliferation--so I'm naturally interested in this discussion.

I just read the other day that in the wild, a cat needs these skills to hunt, eat and survive. Once domesticated, when fed out of a bowl--yes, it's just leftover instinct.

However, cats are not the only animals that kill for something other than survival--murderous behavior has been seen in other "lower" primates--chimpanzees, if memory serves--have been documented killing for either no apparent reason, or out of what seems like almost sociopathic behavior.

I agree that the gap between aliens and human beings could make the gap between humans and animals, or bacteria, for that matter, with which we still have more in common with genetically, seem small.

But animals are a lot more intelligent than many here give them credit for. They certainly aren't stupid.

You, the guy on the park bench listening to you iPod, tying to write your physics thesis: Let's see you build a honeycomb... or a beaver dam... or dance a complex mating ritual characteristic of many birds, insects, etc... or kill a man while remaining so small in his body that you might not even be detected.

While you're at it, why don't you assemble that iPod and everything in it from scratch? Not feeling so smart now?

And the thing about the gorillas learning sign language... they've got some that know between 600-1000 words now... my God... well, okay, YOUR god... but still, that's freakin' amazing.

I posit that these "dumb" animals aren't nearly as dumb as we think. Great point, David, about us being the only species that can outgrow and destroy our ecosystem... although I'd say some other species have gotten damned close, the locust, for example.

To take a stab at answering your question, I don't think modern man kills out of instinct, no. I think in modern Western society, it's taken for granted that we've evolved to the point that that is seen as abnormal behavior. In fact, it's downright primitive

But, it wasn't so long ago that we came down out of the trees. I remember Professor Dawkins making a point that resonated with me--one of the reasons modern man has back problems is that we haven't been walking upright all that very long yet--and it really makes you think.

Yes, the Grays, Zetas, Reptoids, the Nordics, take your pick--they could be billions of years older than we are... but who knows if they've outgrown their killing instinct? Or have they shucked it, like a snake does his skin? Have they programmed it out genetically? Or left it in?

Who knows? Sometimes I think the closest thing we have to answers is to mash together all the reports from abductees (David Jacobs, John Mack, Budd Hopkins, etc.) and take a cross-section of them... from what they tell us, the aliens are certainly worried about our environment, and have been since we lit the first candle in Trinity. Contactees have been talking about that since day one.

Does anybody remember the report about the Air Force filming a 3rd-stage ICBM booster test with a dummy warhead, and while they were filming it, a UFO came in, zapped the warhead three times at speeds that, in comparison, made it look like a Lincoln log thrown into the air, and then took back off the way it came?

Or the nuclear missile base that, when UFOs hovered overhead, had seventeen completely seperately-controlled missile systems go down?

Maybe they really are here to save us from ourselves. If so, they've got a big job ahead of them.