Question sparked by another post

[boomerang]

I am posting this here because it is funny from an engineering point of view... Can you spot the problem with this lift?

Some cross-threading:

You lift super heavy things for a living? I would like to take the opportunity to ask you a question that may not necessarily belong on any particular forum. It's a little off-the-wall, but the opportunity to ask is too temping to resist.

How do you feel about ancient man's ability to lift and place multi-ton stones using only the crudest of tools? I am asking you, because I have had some very limited experience with moving large steel objects. And doing these things in practice can be very different than the kind of armchair scenarios put forward in conventional archaeology. At least I think so.

Any thoughts?

 

[stonehart]

Some cross-threading:

You lift super heavy things for a living? I would like to take the opportunity to ask you a question that may not necessarily belong on any particular forum. It's a little off-the-wall, but the opportunity to ask is too temping to resist.

How do you feel about ancient man's ability to lift and place multi-ton stones using only the crudest of tools? I am asking you, because I have had some very limited experience with moving large steel objects. And doing these things in practice can be very different than the kind of armchair scenarios put forward in conventional archaeology. At least I think so.

Any thoughts?

Well I setup very big PA systems and they can be very heavy indeed but expert? no sorry just a systems tech with some knowledge. .... All I have to say on moving really big items is never underestimate the power of very motivated people to move heavy things because I have seen it done in real life... road cases that weigh in at a good 500kg and team lifted onto a stage with a ramp and enough people it can be done. wight distribution is the key, spread the load enough and it matters not how big the object is it can be moved.

 

[boomerang]

Well I setup very big PA systems and they can be very heavy indeed but expert? no sorry just a systems tech with some knowledge. .... All I have to say on moving really big items is never underestimate the power of very motivated people to move heavy things because I have seen it done in real life... road cases that weigh in at a good 500kg and team lifted onto a stage with a ramp and enough people it can be done. wight distribution is the key, spread the load enough and it matters not how big the object is it can be moved.

That's informative in itself. Perhaps the ancients' genius was one of closely coordinating huge numbers of individuals in ways we have simply forgotten.

 

[Tyger]

I know this is NOT the answer you are looking for - but I have noticed that this idea (I am about to float) is now being brought up in shows like Ancient Aliens and that whole franchise. It's an idea, however, with a very old pedigree, but of an esoteric nature. The idea is that the ancients used sound to move the objects. This idea is presented in texts from out of the 19th century, at least, that I know. Any earlier I have not read. I know it goes back pretty far though I cannot give you the exact lineage from source to source. When it has been referenced it is done so in the context of there having been lost methods - as in lost technologies. Greek Fire is an example of this - though Greek Fire is of a far more recent vintage.

I do know that Anthropologists often came across references - among indigenous peoples - to the 'ancient ones' using sound to move large objects. Easter Islanders, I think, mentioned this to explain the standing figures, for example.

 

[smcder]

I know this is NOT the answer you are looking for - but I have noticed that this idea (I am about to float) is now being brought up in shows like Ancient Aliens and that whole franchise. It's an idea, however, with a very old pedigree, but of an esoteric nature. The idea is that the ancients used sound to move the objects. This idea is presented in texts from out of the 19th century, at least, that I know. Any earlier I have not read. I know it goes back pretty far though I cannot give you the exact lineage from source to source. When it has been referenced it is done so in the context of there having been lost methods - as in lost technologies. Greek Fire is an example of this - though Greek Fire is of a far more recent vintage.

I do know that Anthropologists often came across references - among indigenous peoples - to the 'ancient ones' using sound to move large objects. Easter Islanders, I think, mentioned this to explain the standing figures, for example.

I was just now thinking about this . . . can't remember where I first heard the idea . . .

On the first note of coordinating people - I read something about how much power is lost in horse teams pulling through the harnesses - it rapidly gets to be considerable as the number of horses goes up - is some kind of rough calculation/function around the size, shape of an object and how it is moved over the number of people required possible?

I wonder if there would be clues around the mathematics available? In other words - anything that's been dug up to indicate some kind of calculation as to the above was recorded . . . ? Might be a simple ratio that shows up frequently but hasn't been tied to some other purpose in that society . . . ?

 

[Tyger]

I am a keen believer in a previous civilization that we have lost memory of - and I don't mean Atlantis or Lemuria - which are more esoteric abstracts imo, as is Polaria. Ever since I was an Anthropology student at university the idea has been nagging at me - but back then the Anthropology/Archaeology departments never 'permitted' certain kinds of speculation and were abysmally stodgy, nailed to dubious constructs from pottery shards.

Over on the ATS forums there is news of the 40,000 year old sphinx discovered in Germany - really cool. I am of the opinion that there lies below the ice and snow up north (or south) evidence of that lost civilization - and my hunch is strong that it was a world-wide civilization, advanced but in a different kind of way from us now. Just my weekend ramblings.

 

[stonehart]

That's informative in itself. Perhaps the ancients' genius was one of closely coordinating huge numbers of individuals in ways we have simply forgotten.

That is what I think also, in numbers anything is possible it just takes planning.

 

[Tyger]

That is what I think also, in numbers anything is possible it just takes planning.

Thing is, though, how many people are needed for such work stretching over decades? Populations did not begin to grow until agriculture - and agriculture requires man-hours. 'Excess' population for these building schemes would be meager initially - though, there is the issue of slave labor. It is pretty universal in the ancient world that war meant captured peoples who became slaves. So slaves - but there are problems with slaves to excess. Slaves must be housed and fed.

 

[boomerang]

The sheer logistics of The Great Pyramid are undoubtedly astounding. From the ever popular Wikipedia:

"Based on these estimates, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Similarly, since it consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years would involve moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night."

 

[stonehart]

all good arguments but I do not think such things as the great Pyramid were done through simple brute force, I think there is a piece of the puzzle missing and it is an engineering/machinery one.

 

[manxman]

The sheer logistics of The Great Pyramid are undoubtedly astounding. From the ever popular Wikipedia:

"Based on these estimates, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Similarly, since it consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years would involve moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night."

what kind of weight could a harnessed team of elephants lift, or combined with a counter-weight pulley lifting system, there isnt anything there that man couldnt achieve with 800 men on site for 20 yrs. [ erecting on average 1 ton each per day ]

dont have a clue how many men it would take too mine, cut, and deliver the blocks tho

 

[smcder]

what kind of weight could a harnessed team of elephants lift, or combined with a counter-weight pulley lifting system, there isnt anything there that man couldnt achieve with 800 men on site for 20 yrs. [ erecting on average 1 ton each per day ]

dont have a clue how many men it would take too mine, cut, and deliver the blocks tho

Having moved a lot of furniture in my time, I'm skeptical of the men working together theory . . . you always get that one guy who's got to talk about it, doesn't know his right from your left and makes everything heavier than if you lifted it by yourself . . . and inevitably, he is the one in charge! ;-)

 

[manxman]

actually i think its alot easier done than most people could believe, but they are just big lego sets, especially if theres plenty of water within a few miles.

heres what i think

stoneharts avatar a couple posts up, that's your perfect pyramid shape, with smooth sides, now supposing i build my pyramid with 1 tonne 10 feet long by 5 feet wide blocks.

i dont want lift 2 million blocks many feet in the air, too much power and ingenuity required for that.

so instead at the centre point of each of the 4 sides, i use wedged blocks as i go up level by level, [so the centre of each side is smooth like stonharts avatar] that way i only need to slide the blocks up the centre of each side of the pyramid, then fit them into their respective place on that level.

i would slide them up with a pulley system, using aquaducted running water to fill the weights that dragged the blocks up the smooth centre of each side, or sand.

and when finished, get the stone masons to cut the wedged blocks into step blocks insitu, bish bosh a perfect stepped pyramid, how do like them eggs

 

[boomerang]

what kind of weight could a harnessed team of elephants lift, or combined with a counter-weight pulley lifting system, there isnt anything there that man couldnt achieve with 800 men on site for 20 yrs. [ erecting on average 1 ton each per day ]

dont have a clue how many men it would take too mine, cut, and deliver the blocks tho

The idea of them having used elephants has occurred to me. I also find it difficult that any culture capable of such incredible feats of engineering would not make use of the wheel for large projects. Why would they put wheels on their chariots, but not on equipment used to move huge stones?

 

[Tyger]

all good arguments but I do not think such things as the great Pyramid were done through simple brute force, I think there is a piece of the puzzle missing and it is an engineering/machinery one.

Yes, there is something missing. It could be lost engineering - it could also be forgotten technology of a kind (either) like our technology (unlikely) or of another kind. However, our beliefs about ancient humanity are pretty rigid. Hard to hammer through that dogmatic wall - though the ancient alien folks are certainly giving it the old college try.