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01/21/07 show


hopeful skeptic said:
New thinking is one thing, but we ought not throw away good science and rigorous critical thinking in favor of nonsensical supernaturalism. A good part of science's unwillingness to examine UFO cases stems from the silly, ethereal mysticism some UFO enthusiasts heap on them.

I don't know if that's valid, Skeptic. I mean the whole "space brothers" gibberish is one thing but the reports of aliens or UFOs that fade out or disappear or demonstrate some other "supernatural" quality is quite another. Remember, as Arthur C. Clarke (or was it Carl Sagan?) said, "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." in which case they'd be GENUINELY supernatural (in so much as they'd be demonstrating properties of nature beyond our current understanding).

Also, I don't consider radar hits "hard" evidence. Evidenence maybe but nothing substantial. A blip that appears and then disappears only to reappear a second later at a different altitude miles away COULD be a fast moving UFO or it could be two completely unrelated blips that the operator assumes are the same thing. Only the eyewitness reports of pilots combined with radar hits bear any real merit as far as I'm concerned.
 
I don't know if that's valid, Skeptic. I mean the whole "space brothers" gibberish is one thing but the reports of aliens or UFOs that fade out or disappear or demonstrate some other "supernatural" quality is quite another. Remember, as Arthur C. Clarke (or was it Carl Sagan?) said, "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." in which case they'd be GENUINELY supernatural (in so much as they'd be demonstrating properties of nature beyond our current understanding).


It was Clarke.

Clarke's three laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmm. Url didn't turn into a clicky. I been having weird problems with the forums today. MIBs are out to get me again I guess.
 
I don't know if that's valid, Skeptic. I mean the whole "space brothers" gibberish is one thing but the reports of aliens or UFOs that fade out or disappear or demonstrate some other "supernatural" quality is quite another.

Our own stealth planes, special forces snipers and hunter subs routinely demonstrate this ability. Does that make them supernatural, or are they often using technology and tactics the target or observer does not understand?

Remember, as Arthur C. Clarke (or was it Carl Sagan?) said, "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." in which case they'd be GENUINELY supernatural (in so much as they'd be demonstrating properties of nature beyond our current understanding).

Advanced technology would not be supernatural; it would be unfathomable. That which is not yet explained by science is not supernatural; it is merely unknown. When science collects enough data, and gets something testable and measurable, and acquires sufficient expertise to fully test an unknown object or phenomenon, it becomes known.

When European settlers first engaged in warfare with the natives, our guns were mystical and magical to them, since the natives had no experience with firearms, or frame of reference with which to compare that technology with their own. Fast forward two hundred years, and the natives used guns superior to those carried by the typical U.S. cavalryman to destroy the 7th Cavalry at Little Bighorn.

Having had three hundred years to observe, examine, trade for and then master the firearm, what was once a magical, mystical object became a fundamental part of a native warrior's equipment. If we were to acquire a UFO, it might take us five hundred, or a thousand, or tens of thousands of years to understand how it works. That does not make it supernatural.

Look, if I go to a magic show, and the magician makes himself "disappear," it isn't because he has any magical powers. He's performing a trick I don't understand. Once you walk backstage, or talk to other professional magicians, or befriend the guy and get him to demonstrate his illusion, I can understand how he did it. It isn't supernatural at all. It's something unknown, which now is known.

If some folks in ufology want to attach all kinds of supernatural nonsense to UFOs, they ought to be willing to admit that it isn't UFOs that really interest them - it's supernaturalism. I find it mystifying that folks who giggle and smirk at traditional religious paradigms can turn around and entertain psychics, thought-photography and demonology. Aren't they trading one sick horse for another?

Also, I don't consider radar hits "hard" evidence. Evidenence maybe but nothing substantial. A blip that appears and then disappears only to reappear a second later at a different altitude miles away COULD be a fast moving UFO or it could be two completely unrelated blips that the operator assumes are the same thing. Only the eyewitness reports of pilots combined with radar hits bear any real merit as far as I'm concerned.

My inclusion of hard radar hits in the "physical evidence" category assumes that the radar is used to verify observation. In earlier posts, on this thread, I've referred to the invalidity of eyewitness observations not reinforced by some kind of testable, measurable physical evidence. Radar hits alone aren't enough; eyewitness testimony alone isn't enough. The two together might give us something interesting to examine further. They may not conclusively prove the reality of a UFO encounter, but they get us further along than endless "I once saw..." stories and supernaturalistic pandering.

If someone comes to me and says that a UFO must have landed in their yard because there is a burned patch of grass there, but they themselves didn't witness it happening, then I see no compelling reason to waste time on further study. Patches of grass get burnt for all kinds of reasons. If someone comes to me and says they saw a UFO land, watched an occupant enter their room, carry on a conversation with the observer and then leave, but can provide no corroborating physical evidence, then further inquiry is useless. It's just a story. It may be true, it may not be true, but it is evidentially worthless.

Now, if someone comes to me and says a UFO landed on their roof, and can show me torn up, irradiated shingles and a scorch mark, at least I have something testable to look at, and a context against which the physical evidence can be judged.

Unless, of course, you're Linda Howe, for whom some matchstick-burnt sheets are clear evidence of an alien abduction.
 
David Biedny said:
The mission of The Paracast is to seek understanding of ALL paranormal phenomenon, NOT just UFOs. While UFOs are indeed our most covered topic, a glance at our guest list will confirm that we are interested in ALL unexplained events that affect us and our understanding of the nature of the universe.

That was my understanding when I agreed to be on the program. Even the name "paracast" conuld be understood as reference to paranormality. I am thus rather taken aback by listeners who complain that you need to 'stick to UFOs" to get scientific validation. Do these guys *really* think paranormal research is less respectable than UFOlogy in the academic community? Quite the contrary.

I both like and respect Stanton Friedman, and I think he has done good work on the field, but I also feel that he has a vested interested in a particular explanation for the sourcing of UFOs, and we on The Paracast have no such vested interests. The investigation of UFOs in general seems to be in a bit of stagnation, with the same ideas and theories hauled out over and over. What's wrong with expanding the discussion? We might glean some new insights.

I totally agree.

For the record, I'm not convinced by some of the theories put forth by Allan Greenfield, especially the notion that thought projection can render an image on photographic film. I have never seen ANY example of that, and I find it highly doubtful that it's possible. On the other hand, can I prove that it's impossible? That's a tough one. Greenfield has some fascinating ideas, and that's what we're looking for - original thoughts and a clear, rational discussion.dB

To take such a radical step, of course I'm bound to be wrong in places. I'm not sure how we got off on thought-form photography. There is good evidence for it, but my comments were offhand in response to a case you brought up, as I recall. Neither of my books are on that subject.

Gene and I once did an experiment privatedly with James Randi, whewre the latter purported to "explain Ted Serios. I spotted his trick in about 30 seconds and told him so. Next day, he was on the "Today" show on NBC using the same trick as an explanation. He should have stayed the good stage magician he was.
 
hopeful skeptic said:
Advanced technology would not be supernatural; it would be unfathomable. That which is not yet explained by science is not supernatural; it is merely unknown.

You're over-explaining a position we're basically agreed upon just using different terms. So, one more time, when I say "supernatural" I don't mean "ooga-booga", I mean it literally, things that are beyond ("super-") our understanding of nature ("natural") for the present time.

However, I also recognize that humans are inately supersitious creatures and that most people will jump to a magical conclusion if they cannot see anything resembling a rational one.

hopeful skeptic said:
When science collects enough data, and gets something testable and measurable, and acquires sufficient expertise to fully test an unknown object or phenomenon, it becomes known.

That assumes that there are no limits to human understanding and no cap on scientific advancement. For instance, when you say:

hopeful skeptic said:
If we were to acquire a UFO, it might take us five hundred, or a thousand, or tens of thousands of years to understand how it works.

What if we couldn't figure it out? I mean ever. What if the physical limitations of the human brain simply prevented our understanding? What then? Sure, we'd appreciate that this was technology and not magic but if the gap of understanding proved to be that wide, what's the difference?
 
As an afterthought, I got this directly and thought I'd post it:
;)
"Hey Allen,
I just wanted you to know that I thought you did a great job on the
Paracast. Very interesting. I have not yet finished listening to your entire
interview, as I have downloaded it into my MP3 player and listen to it as I
drive to and from work. But what I have heard so far is really good. A lot
of people don't want to hear about anything other than the ETH...anything
else threatens their mindset I guess. However, since we don't have an
actual UFO to study in a lab, then we should consider the other
possibilities and not dismiss them simply because it may not fit someones
personal belief system. Keep up the good work.

Tim Swartz
Editor, Conspiracy Journal
www.conspiracyjournal.com"
 
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