The Roswell Slides Have Been Leaked Online

[George Wingfield]

Regarding the slides I am now completely convinced that they show the "palmer"/Montezuma Castle mummy, provenance has been proven via the FOIA request, the placard is genuine, and so are the slides.
I do however agree with George when he says that this was a carefully planned hoax/deception.
People saw what they wanted to see, and the hoaxers whoever they are, were only too well aware that this would be the result.

I can not dispute Georges claim that Maussan never saw the original slides, because I don't know, however looking at the 5 existing pictures of the mummy and comparing them I can't see any evidence of image manipulation i.e photoshop, overall I think it is a case of deliberate mistaken identity.

I am astounded that maussan and LMH are still resisting logic, but then again their track records at discerning the truth are equally hilarious and ridiculous. I can't feel any sympathy for either of them because they are making money from continuing the charade.

*****************************************************************************************************************

Harry, All this talk about some particular mummy is surely missing the point. It is repeatedly suggested that Maussan and his experts saw a digital image of an ordinary mummified child and mistook it for a "genuine Roswell Alien" because they were fanatics, idiots, mentally incompetent, or whatever --maybe all of these. That is a little hard to believe. A far more likely explanation is that the digital image(s) which were supplied to them showed an apparent dead creature with distinct non-human features that precluded it being a mummified human.

Since we are all quite sure (unlike them) that it could not have been an alien, the only logical solution is that their digital image was either one of a SFX dummy alien or else something like a mummy that had been photoshopped to show such non-human features. One should revisit Maussan's video in which several experts gave explicit details why the images could not be of a dead human and an expert on mummies said she had never seen any mummy like this one. The conclusion is surely that the digital images supplied to Maussan were subtly different from those we see now and which are said to be a particular mummy.

Knowing as I do that the hoaxers made a different SFX dummy for their 1995 Alien Autopsy it seems very likely they created something similar on this occasion --following "the Roswell narrative" as John Lundberg usually puts it. However I concede that a bit of creative use of Photoshop on a photograph of a mummy could produce similar results. The illusion that confuses people is the assumption that we have all been looking at exactly the same two images.

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the "Roswell Slides" business was a carefully prepared hoax aimed primarily at Roswell researchers and believers. What remains unseen is the full extent of it. This was not just a bit of fun. Rather than anything to do with UFO research, or scientific research, this hoax was produced as something from the realm of film making, "reality TV", or the making of a documentary to illustrate the madness of Roswell believers. In other words, a follow-on to 'Mirage Men' which uncovered the makings of the Roswell Myth.

 

[Burnt State]

@George Wingfield , your self-confidence in the convoluted tale you spin is impressive to say the least. But at least The Song Remains the Same. However, I still doubt that this new, "Blame it on Lundberg" meme you are looking to generate is going to catch on. Keep on writin' your version of the tale; keep it all nicely in chaos.

 

[Han]

Hi George I would like to say that I never said that it was just an ordinary Mummy, if you read Mr Palmer's description of his dig he states the the other burials around the child in question were in a much worse state of preservation, he also says that the child was buried with some grave goods including a large red bowl and a bow and arrow, which would suggest that the child had high status.
It is also not a "traditional" mummy as in no Mummia was used. Mummia is a substance use in the process of embalming a mummy, this child was preserved by the environment in which he was buried making him quite special, hence the interest in obtaining his body for display by firstly the Chapin mesa Museum and then by the Montezuma castle museum.


I have closely studied the images of the mummy, and I can't see the discrepancies that are being claimed, I am going to post the images I have seen (minus the low quality screen grab) at the end of this message so people can judge for themselves.

I would be grateful if you could point out exactly where in the Bewitness image you see evidence of photo manipulation, I know that you have stated that you believe that Mr Maussan saw and showed the "experts" a different picture, but surely he would have shown the "world" the same one, otherwise his "experts" would have cried foul at the actual event, if not after.

It is also my understanding that DR R. O'Connor has now changed his stance to agree that the slides do indeed show a human Mummy after reading the FOIA data provided by the NPS (I should say that he was not part of the Bewitness event but he did support the claims of maussan and co.).

There have been multiple experts in anthropology (specifically specialising in Mummies) that have gone on record saying that the rays slides show a Mummy.


Here are the pictures in chronological order:

(1) From the NPS FOIA document:

(2) the Ray slide:

(3) The picture from Montezuma Castle:

 

[Last Laugh]

Agreed. For George's claim of photoshopping to be real, then the picture unveiled at the May 5th event would have had to be different than the ones originally supplied to Jaime. How would that happen without anyone noticing? The 'experts' were not changing their tune when the slides were released to the public, slides which in George's theory must be different than the originals.

Let's not forget that Jaime at one time promoted a dead macaque monkey as an alien. He was also able to supply 'experts' that verified that it was really an alien.

It was not necessary to create an SFX dummy or a photoshopped image to convince him that he had an alien (or at least something that could be promoted as an alien).

 

[Polterwurst]

I have to say that I disagree with George regarding this forum being full of trolls, it is however inhabited by strong minded and opinionated people, I can only speak for myself when I say the reason I use my real name is because I try to stand by what I say, I have a bad temper and using my own name makes me consider what I write more (as some of you know it does not always work .
I am on first name terms with many of the members and don't consider them using pseudonyms as an issue.

Regarding the slides I am now completely convinced that they show the "palmer"/Montezuma Castle mummy, provenance has been proven via the FOIA request, the placard is genuine, and so are the slides.
I do however agree with George when he says that this was a carefully planned hoax/deception.
People saw what they wanted to see, and the hoaxers whoever they are, were only too well aware that this would be the result.

I can not dispute Georges claim that Maussan never saw the original slides, because I don't know, however looking at the 5 existing pictures of the mummy and comparing them I can't see any evidence of image manipulation i.e photoshop, overall I think it is a case of deliberate mistaken identity.

I am astounded that maussan and LMH are still resisting logic, but then again their track records at discerning the truth are equally hilarious and ridiculous. I can't feel any sympathy for either of them because they are making money from continuing the charade.

Wow. It rarely happens that I agree with every single point of a forum post, so I have to quote this for (IMO) complete and utter truthiness.

 

[Bob Watson]

Soo my own question is if this is a deliberate hoax by maussan?

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

 

[Han]

Soo my own question is if this is a deliberate hoax by maussan?

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

I am not convinced that J Maussan is behind the deception, I think he genuinely believes what he is saying.

I think he was a victim at first, but his failure to acknowledge the facts, especially from the NPS document, means that he is guilty of continuing the scam.

I am basing the above on his recent interview on mufon radio.

 

[Constance]

Just who knew what when is extremely hard to determine now, but it is entirely possible that somebody knew all along.

I am not convinced that J Maussan is behind the deception, I think he genuinely believes what he is saying.

I think he was a victim at first, but his failure to acknowledge the facts, especially from the NPS document, means that he is guilty of continuing the scam.

I am basing the above on his recent interview on mufon radio.

Do you have a link to that interview? Also, any sign of Adam Dew?

 

[George Wingfield]

Soo my own question is if this is a deliberate hoax by maussan?

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

I am not convinced that J Maussan is behind the deception, I think he genuinely believes what he is saying.

I think he was a victim at first, but his failure to acknowledge the facts, especially from the NPS document, means that he is guilty of continuing the scam.

I am basing the above on his recent interview on mufon radio.

****************************************************************************************************************

Well, Harry, I do entirely agree with you. There was a carefully planned hoax here but I do not believe that it originated from Maussan himself or was actually commissioned by him. I did initially suggest that but I am sure now that he --and other Roswell believers-- were the targeted victims of the hoax rather than originators of it. If, as you concede, this was indeed a hoax we should back off for a minute from arguing about the "evidence" that was supplied --always in the form of digital images on the internet-- and look much more carefully at some of the personalities involved. I'll say more about this later.

I hope you will agree with me for a start that the Hilda Ray/Mamie Eisenhower/"private viewing of an alien corpse" story is complete fiction and merely something that was put forward to establish the false Roswell provenance and the false date of 1947/1948 for the (non-existent) slides. I believe that the dubious Mr Dew has now withdrawn from sight and is unwilling to answer any further questions. Yes, indeed, Jaime Maussan, Tom Carey, and Don Schmitt seem to have bought into this cockamamie story and, having done so accepted that the digital images supplied to them did indeed show a genuine Roswell Alien. They are most unwilling to withdraw from this position even now.

Here is where I see a major disconnect which raises the questions I asked earlier. Maussan and the others clearly believed that the digital images they were sent showed a number of non-human features which precluded the supposed dead creature from ever having been a human or even a mammal. I can, if you like, go back and list the anomalies they cited and also the experts who confirmed such anomalies and the fact that this could not have been a mummy --let alone a human one.

This is what strongly suggests that Maussan & Co. were --at an early stage-- not looking at exactly the same digital images as the rest of us. If they were, the only conclusion is that they were (a) delusional, (b) lying, (c) had somehow been hypnotized, or (d) had been seriously deceived by someone whose word they (unwisely) trusted. This is the disconnect that I believe should be looked at and I think it's obvious that Maussan was seriously deceived. As you know, I have no brief at all for Maussan and have been well aware of (and sometimes listened to) the BS that he has been preaching for the last 25 years. Some of you may have read what I said about him and his earlier hoaxed "alien creature", the Metepec Monkey, two years ago. So, Bob Peace and Last Laugh, please take a look at:-
The UFO Phenomenon: A Quest for the Truth

Perception management is the name of the game here and victims of it frequently have no idea that they are being deceived. I've seen this sort of thing performed by illusionists in Las Vegas and often, especially with close-up magic, one simply cannot see how the trick was done. One has witnessed something that was quite impossible and the deception is so good that --as with Uri Geller-- one can be completely taken in. Something quite impossible to us --like the existence of a Roswell Alien-- may seem entirely believable to others, especially when they have failed to see that trickery was being performed. As medium of choice for today's illusionists and fraudsters there is nothing quite like internet.

Apart from the hoaxers of the Roswell Slides , a major contingent involved and watching at the time of the 'Be Witness' event on May 5th were the many Roswell Skeptics who were delighted with its failure and who obviously took the opportunity to heap disdain on Maussan. One can hardly blame them --but the simplistic view that everyone, including Maussan, was merely looking at the same identical image(s) of a mummified child all along doesn't quite work. The hoaxers will never admit exactly how they orchestrated their perception management trick but both Roswell Believers and Roswell Skeptics (apart from some who were in the know) have been deceived by a clever illusion.

(no further replies now as I must now go to London!) --George

 

[Constance]

I was about to post this speculation when I saw George's new post, but I'll go ahead and post it anyway.

For George's claim of photoshopping to be real, then the picture unveiled at the May 5th event would have had to be different than the ones originally supplied to Jaime. How would that happen without anyone noticing? The 'experts' were not changing their tune when the slides were released to the public, slides which in George's theory must be different than the originals.

That's a good question. But I'm guessing that what George is contemplating is the possibility that other digital representations might have been provided early on to Carey and Schmitt (and later to Mausson), sufficiently altered to create the impression that the body in the glass box was not obviously a human mummy. It seems to me that only Dew and his silent partner can answer this question, and won't. I wonder if everything used in the development of the 'Roswell slides' project over three years still resides in Dew's computers. We're not likely to find out.

As for the forensic specialists who analyzed the digital files they received, more recently, from Dew, I find it hard to believe that they would not have considered the possibility that the image showed a mummy. I think they would have considered that possibility but concentrated on answering the question whether the remains were those of a human or another species of life.

At one point recently it was reported that Mausson indicated his intention to hold a conference of forensic scientists and biologists to discuss the details of the reports offered on May 5. Has anyone heard more about this? Note: I'm not suggesting that there is room for doubt about the identity of the Montezuma's Castle mummy confirmed by recently discovered historical photographs. The purpose of the conference Mausson seems to have had in mind would probably be to justify to some extent (or not) the opinions expressed by the specialists speaking in Mexico City on the basis of analyzing digitized photographs -- and to recognize the hazard of drawing even partial conclusions from such limited evidence.

 

[Han]

****************************************************************************************************************

Well, Harry, I do entirely agree with you. There was a carefully planned hoax here but I do not believe that it originated from Maussan himself or was actually commissioned by him. I did initially suggest that but I am sure now that he --and other Roswell believers-- were the targeted victims of the hoax rather than originators of it. If, as you concede, this was indeed a hoax we should back off for a minute from arguing about the "evidence" that was supplied --always in the form of digital images on the internet-- and look much more carefully at some of the personalities involved. I'll say more about this later.

I hope you will agree with me for a start that the Hilda Ray/Mamie Eisenhower/"private viewing of an alien corpse" story is complete fiction and merely something that was put forward to establish the false Roswell provenance and the false date of 1947/1948 for the (non-existent) slides. I believe that the dubious Mr Dew has now withdrawn from sight and is unwilling to answer any further questions. Yes, indeed, Jaime Maussan, Tom Carey, and Don Schmitt seem to have bought into this cockamamie story and, having done so accepted that the digital images supplied to them did indeed show a genuine Roswell Alien. They are most unwilling to withdraw from this position even now.

Here is where I see a major disconnect which raises the questions I asked earlier. Maussan and the others clearly believed that the digital images they were sent showed a number of non-human features which precluded the supposed dead creature from ever having been a human or even a mammal. I can, if you like, go back and list the anomalies they cited and also the experts who confirmed such anomalies and the fact that this could not have been a mummy --let alone a human one.

This is what strongly suggests that Maussan & Co. were --at an early stage-- not looking at exactly the same digital images as the rest of us. If they were, the only conclusion is that they were (a) delusional, (b) lying, (c) had somehow been hypnotized, or (d) had been seriously deceived by someone whose word they (unwisely) trusted. This is the disconnect that I believe should be looked at and I think it's obvious that Maussan was seriously deceived. As you know, I have no brief at all for Maussan and have been well aware of (and sometimes listened to) the BS that he has been preaching for the last 25 years. Some of you may have read what I said about him and his earlier hoaxed "alien creature", the Metepec Monkey, two years ago. So, Bob Peace and Last Laugh, please take a look at:-
The UFO Phenomenon: A Quest for the Truth

Perception management is the name of the game here and victims of it frequently have no idea that they are being deceived. I've seen this sort of thing performed by illusionists in Las Vegas and often, especially with close-up magic, one simply cannot see how the trick was done. One has witnessed something that was quite impossible and the deception is so good that --as with Uri Geller-- one can be completely taken in. Something quite impossible to us --like the existence of a Roswell Alien-- may seem entirely believable to others, especially when they have failed to see that trickery was being performed. As medium of choice for today's illusionists and fraudsters there is nothing quite like internet.

Apart from the hoaxers of the Roswell Slides , a major contingent involved and watching at the time of the 'Be Witness' event on May 5th were the many Roswell Skeptics who were delighted with its failure and who obviously took the opportunity to heap disdain on Maussan. One can hardly blame them --but the simplistic view that everyone, including Maussan, was merely looking at the same identical image(s) of a mummified child all along doesn't quite work. The hoaxers will never admit exactly how they orchestrated their perception management trick but both Roswell Believers and Roswell Skeptics (apart from some who were in the know) have been deceived by a clever illusion.

(no further replies now as I must now go to London!) --George

Bon Voyage George, I hope you have a nice time in my favourite city in the world
Thank you for your continued participation. Best wishes.

 

[Han]

Do you have a link to that interview? Also, any sign of Adam Dew?

Here is the link: MUFON Official UFO Radio Show | KGRA Digital Broadcasting

but you will have to register with kgra radio to listen to the show, I went for the free membership (moon membership) option here: KGRA Radio - Alternative, Paranormal, UFO Radio - Members | KGRA Digital Broadcasting

Edit:
I think it was mentioned that either schmidt or carey have telephone conferences with dew weekly, but I would have to re listen to be certain that is exactly what they said

 

[Constance]

A further thought: if it is the case that misleading digital representations of the body in the slides were provided early on to Carey, Schmitt, and Mausson, they would of course have such evidence of fraud on the part of Dew and his partner. If so, it might be a while before they decide whether to prosecute their case for fraud in a court of law or online, or perhaps not at all.

 

[Constance]

I have to withdraw that last speculation after hearing Tom Carey in the MUFON interview Han linked above. Asked about Dew's silence, Carey replied that Dew is a member of the team involved in the Roswell slides research and that he participates in conference calls with the others every week or two.

 

[Last Laugh]

facepalm.gif

I think I'm going to give up here, but I'll try one more time: The supposed experts who made the claims of the various non-human features were looking at the same pictures we all were. They had to have been, since the pictures were released to the public at the same time as their statements were given. They also stood by their statements afterwards. Do you think that they made their statements based on an altered image and then failed to notice that everyone else was looking at a different pic? They would have had to have a bag over their head.

I can, and I think we all can agree that there is a possibility of an intentional hoax here, and of course nobody is disputing that the story of the Ray's alien viewing is fantasy. That's not why I keep posting here. George claimed that the anomalies could only be a dummy. Now he has to agree that it is not. Now he is saying that the images were photoshopped. If you think about this logically, this cannot be so. I am proposing that what happened with Jaime and crew (if not an intentional deception) was simply a bad case of confirmation bias by cherry picked scientists.

It was not necessary or possible to photoshop the slides before giving them to Jaime and his 'experts'. All of the 'anomalies' listed could easily be caused by the blurry photos and restricted viewing angles (and major confirmation bias). The experts have not come out to say that they saw different images, even after all of the controversy. That says it all to me.

 

[Constance]

facepalm.gif

I think I'm going to give up here, but I'll try one more time: The supposed experts who made the claims of the various non-human features were looking at the same pictures we all were. They had to have been, since the pictures were released to the public at the same time as their statements were given. They also stood by their statements afterwards. Do you think that they made their statements based on an altered image and then failed to notice that everyone else was looking at a different pic? They would have had to have a bag over their head.

I can't tell whether you were addressing the above to me but I'll reply anyway. In what I posted I tried to distinguish between a) the full-sized digital image that I expect the forensic specialists worked with, and which we were shown following the May 5 event, and b) the possibility that the ufo researchers involved in the slides project did not see that version early on (and possibly saw intentionally altered versions, a suggestion I've withdrawn tonight since it seems clear from what Carey said in the MUFON interview that he does not entertain that possibility).

. . . I think we all can agree that there is a possibility of an intentional hoax here . . . .

I've suspected a hoax, but not by Carey, Schmitt, or Mausson because they would have no reason to play games with the subject matter to which they've dedicated their careers.

. . . and of course nobody is disputing that the story of the Ray's alien viewing is fantasy. That's not why I keep posting here. George claimed that the anomalies could only be a dummy. Now he has to agree that it is not. Now he is saying that the images were photoshopped. If you think about this logically, this cannot be so.

Had Dew been working with the persons George has suspected of involvement in a 'Roswell slides' hoax, there would be nothing at all illogical about their altering the digital image(s) early on in order to obtain the participation of Carey and Schmitt in the project. {But as I've said, if C and S don't suspect Dew of misleading them, I see little reason to suppose that he was involved in a hoax}. In the MUFON interview linked above, Carey goes on at some length describing the sequence of discoveries that persuaded him that the slides might indeed have had a Roswell connection. You might want to listen to that.

I am proposing that what happened with Jaime and crew (if not an intentional deception) was simply a bad case of confirmation bias by cherry picked scientists.

You're saying that the scientists were 'cherry picked' because they were known to be biased? What is the evidence for that?

It was not necessary or possible to photoshop the slides before giving them to Jaime and his 'experts'. All of the 'anomalies' listed could easily be caused by the blurry photos and restricted viewing angles (and major confirmation bias). The experts have not come out to say that they saw different images, even after all of the controversy. That says it all to me.

Re the blue highlighted statement, I agree. And it seems to be the case that the experts have made no claims about the digital images they worked with.

Mausson's expressed intention (a week or so ago) to gather a group of forensic scientists and biologists for a public discussion of the experts' analyses would help to clear the air concerning whether these individuals had reasonable grounds for their interpretations of the body in the slides. I hope that happens.

Mausson is interviewed following Carey in the MUFON podcast and he is indeed making certain claims concerning inconsistencies among the three mummy images now assumed to have been photos of one and the same individual in the NPS collection. According to Mausson, these inconsistencies concern significant differences in the lengths of the bodies and the lack of a visible right hand in one of the earlier images.

EDIT TO ADD:
I forgot to mention earlier one statement made by Carey in the above interview -- that two of the individuals asked for assistance in clarifying the placard by the 'Roswell slides' research group, and who declined to assist, are members of the RSRG.

I'm just reporting here. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Last Laugh]

My post was not directed at you, though your reply does make sense. I think we are in general agreement. My post was aimed mostly at George. I have rebutted his claim of 'anomalies' repeatedly and I see no reason to suspect that there was either a dummy or a digital alteration of the slides. I feel like he's in some ways clinging to his theory and not reassessing the situation as more information becomes available (just like Jaime).

I have no evidence that the 'experts' were cherry picked, but I believe it's likely based on the fact that other experts have looked at the same slides and immediately concluded mummy. Richard Doble, for one, I believe is likely susceptible to a strong confirmation bias. I don't think it's impossible that when told a compelling story he could interpret incomplete data as supporting his existing theory (of the Roswell crash being ET). I think it's entirely possible that Jaime had consulted other experts who didn't agree and chose those who had the most exciting story. Again, a reminder that he presented 'experts' in the monkey debacle as well. That's why I suspect cherry picking. In that case, actual scientists concluded monkey easily. You said you don't suspect a hoax from Maussan, but he seems to have a reputation for supporting questionable evidence, does he not? These are only my opinions and suspicions.

I am open to changing my opinion should other evidence become available, but in the light of the existing situation, it seems unlikely that there was a dummy or that the mummy images were altered.

BTW, I'm not following your last statement about the placard. 2 members of the RSRG asked for help from the RSRG and they declined?

Cheers

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

[Sent this morning:]

"Jaime:

Hola:
Christopher O'Brien here: we both spoke last November at the NJ Paranormal Forum. I am co-host of the very popular USA radio/Internet show, the Paracast. Gene Sternberg and I would love to have you as a guest on the program. I'm surprised that we've never had you on the show! We tape ahead of time, so we would be able to work around your busy schedule. Please let us know what time frame would work best for you...

Muchos gracias
Chris"

 

[Wade]

p.s.

pls. encourage Whitley and Linda to tag along.

xxxx oooo

 

[Sentry]

I think it was mentioned that either schmidt or carey have telephone conferences with dew weekly, but I would have to re listen to be certain that is exactly what they said

Okay, a couple of things about that. I discussed this with Alejandro Rojas, who's been covering this closely and knows many of the players. As of about two weeks ago, Dew was off the radar, but briefly resurfaced to email Rojas. He mentioned that Don and Tom had not heard from him either, so I'm taking that weekly phone conference to more a thing of the past, not the present.

Secondly, during the mention of the phone conferences on that show, Carey said that Adam Dew was part of his "team." Who else is on that team? I'm not sure that has ever been disclosed.

BTW, my new article which discusses that show and a follow-up interview:
Dr. Richard O’Connor on Putting Away the Roswell Slides