Sept. 29, 2013 Listener Roundtable

[Randall]

... i know ufology will set me straight on that one, but then i think that promoting magic and irrationalism might help us to gain a little more traction both in life and in understanding UFO's. after all, isn't materialism just something for people who believe in giant BMW SUV's?

Well I drive a fairly base model Buick Allure, so I'm probably more a wannabe materialist than the real deal .

i really enjoyed hearing what @mike sounded like. perhaps i missed it revealed elsewhere in the forums, but i always took your unbridled enthusiasm and plethora of diverse knowledges and pursuits to be the product of an ultra vital younger person in their late 30's, or early 40's, not retired and enjoying the luxuries of getting to do whatever you want to do - good for you. it all makes sense. loved hearing about your house and wildlife collection, not to mention all the models -it sounds pleasantly surreal. i really enjoyed getting to hear you, your accent, and Goggs - such a great plurality of voices. BTW when will we have a female Paracast forum poster on the show? as @nameless pointed out above, shows that respect listeners and open up the discussion to interact with their audience on this level are simply wildly excellent!

I'll second and third that ! I think I mentioned this to @Decker already, but I think this is what really makes The Paracast and DMR stand out from the crowd. It's innovative and interesting.

but this is what rocked me: a transcript from the closing sequence by @Christopher O'Brien on Survival and Propagation

I put my 2 bits on that in here: Sept. 29, 2013 Listener Roundtable | The Paracast Community Forums

Jerome Clark says we don't have a language or a vocabulary to speak about these things whose moments of documented radar contact and trace evidence are few and fleeting. Maybe we should start with the language of the trickster; because, that is one we know, and it parallels the phenomenon a lot more accurately than any of our rationalism has ever helped us to understand.

I think we already started with the language of the trickster and now we're trying to make some sense of it. I don't think the trickster would be very happy if we didn't try to figure out the riddles it presents us with. It's whole purpose is to nudge us forward by questioning what we don't know, not to undo what we already know.

his closing talk led me to this article and it made more sense to me than most of what i've heard from in ufology in a long time - perhaps i'm reading the wrong material? it also illuminated that repeated theme that shows up around here on the forum a lot about how those who investigate UFO's too deeply are also likely to destabilize.

Now let's have a look at that quote:

"When the supernatural and irrational are banished from consciousness, they are not destroyed, rather they become exceedingly dangerous.” He also has words of caution for UFO and paranormal researchers who might be frivolously tempted to tangle with the trickster and his domain, warning of personal destabilisation, a loss of critical judgement, wrecked careers, ruined marriages and general “trickster-induced irrationality”.​

It seems to me that it's a self fulfilling prophecy more than some sort of profound realization. When we banish anything, there is always some residual resentment that moves underground and begins to manifest in the shadows. In the case of the supernatural this has resulted in a polarization of beliefs and values, one based on reason and the other based on ignorance and superstition. As a consequence anyone who has established themselves within the circles of reason is no longer free to entertain the supernatural for fear of being banished into the pit. There's nothing particularly mysterious about this.

However I would contend that on a higher level ( if that's even a valid term ), there appears to be a force ( call it the trickster ) that intervenes when we're exploring this territory. I know it sounds like I've just stepped off the ledge here, but the coincidences seem to convenient to ignore. They seem particularly fond of interjecting themselves in communications in a way that leads to misunderstandings and turmoil, not unlike the fable of the tower of Babel. If that isn't an almost perfect example of a supernatural trickster tactic, I don't know what is.

Even the highly polarized positions we see today are ( as you suggested ), an "in" for the trickster element. The only tool I've seen that is consistent in helping navigate these waters is an awareness of the increased risk of misunderstanding and an unwavering course charted by critical thinking. However be warned about that as well. As much as this is a powerful tool, it also elicits an equal and opposite resistance that manifests itself in the kind of tangles we've seen in certain exchanges.

Because this subject is in the realm of the trickster, it's hard to get what I'm saying across effectively. Perhaps experiencing it in action is a better way to relay the idea. The Trickster seems to focus on eroding anything that threatens to expose it, and because critical thinking is in that camp, when the subject comes up or is being discussed, the Trickster intercedes with a lens that polarizes the issue into a "Who is this guy to tell me how to think?" versus the critical thinker who is really just trying to help get to the bottom of things.

You might be able to experience this in Dr. Richard Paul's videos. What he's saying literally makes a lot of sense, but I still find myself having to filter out the aura of "know it allishness" ( if that makes any sense ), and not get too bored. Other speakers on the topic come across as aloof or insensitive, and I've been accused of such myself. Yet it's my experience that these misperceptions are due to the colors on that lens our trickster friend has inserted into the issue to befuddle and blur and divert the search for truth.

 

[Burnt State]

It seems to me that it's a self fulfilling prophecy more than some sort of profound realization. When we banish anything, there is always some residual resentment that moves underground and begins to manifest in the shadows. In the case of the supernatural this has resulted in a polarization of beliefs and values, one based on reason and the other based on ignorance and superstition. As a consequence anyone who has established themselves within the circles of reason is no longer free to entertain the supernatural for fear of being banished into the pit. There's nothing particularly mysterious about this.

For me the profound piece was twofold. I don't see the nuts and bolts hypothesis playing as significant a role in what we may have unconsciously had a hand in creating. Now Clark would scoff at this mode of thinking and quote,"The only collective unconscious was in Jung's library," or something to that effect. You will say that people didn't manifest radar blips. Appreciating the possibility that a large part of the UFO mystery and other paranormal phenomenon starts with us seems to have more cache than the physical theory for me.

However I would contend that on a higher level ( if that's even a valid term ), there appears to be a force ( call it the trickster ) that intervenes when we're exploring this territory. I know it sounds like I've just stepped off the ledge here, but the coincidences seem to convenient to ignore. They seem particularly fond of interjecting themselves in communications in a way that leads to misunderstandings and turmoil, not unlike the fable of the tower of Babel. If that isn't an almost perfect example of a supernatural trickster tactic, I don't know what is.

Somehow, for me, this is really refreshing to read, coming from you.

...
Because this subject is in the realm of the trickster, it's hard to get what I'm saying across effectively. Perhaps experiencing it in action is a better way to relay the idea. The Trickster seems to focus on eroding anything that threatens to expose it, and because critical thinking is in that camp, when the subject comes up or is being discussed, the Trickster intercedes with a lens that polarizes the issue into a "Who is this guy to tell me how to think?" versus the critical thinker who is really just trying to help get to the bottom of things.

There is always more of a severe a price to be paid when the trickster is handing you the bill. Somewhere between the moth getting too close to the flame and trying to find the secret name of god lies a more maddening path, like trying to find the third bank of the river. The experiences of those who get too close to the UFO, or too close to Bigfoot or Poltergeists seems to be akin to sliding off the edge of the planet just a little bit. It changes people deeply and some might even say that they become irrational. Although Perkins' point was that not including the other half of our brain in examining the mystery would be like trying to push a large square peg through our round ear hole. Both roads are damned.

You might be able to experience this in Dr. Richard Paul's videos.....Yet it's my experience that the reality is that these are colors on that lens of trickster that it has been inserted into the issue in order to befuddle and blur and divert the search for truth.

I will lsten to Paul (in an octopus' garden in the shade). I don't see very much headway gained from years of science. Maybe deconstructing that old myth and learning to examine our role inside it might take us somewhere a litte deeper, so as not to blur lines but to make the invisible borderlines more visible?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

why this show became a favourite for me: i had a minor personal revelation around the inability for us to get our nuts and bolts straight because we can't come to understand why even that question is a still a problem. perhaps trying to physically erect the smooth saucer is not the point at all?…but this is what rocked me:
a transcript from the closing sequence by @Christopher O'Brien on Survival and Propagation
it reminded me of the moment that i understood how ouija boards worked amongst people on planchettes, especially my own experiences of guilt and conscience in what we talked about, or how radical table tipping with just finger tips can create paranormal experiences out of real physical manifestations by those participating in the event. they remain completely ignorant to the fact that they are the ones responsible for tipping the table and we also move the planchette. We do it together, blindly.

But there is some sort of compulsion or imperative that appears to be operative. That's the key: The sum total of the parts may be steering the gene-pool ship outward toward survival. Or the planet itself, "Gaia" may be giving us a nudge into space... The human race is like a baby bird in the nest. I don't care what Jerry says: The species is connected on some sort of collective level. It has to be, or we're in trouble! We live in a wonderful, bio-diverse "hive" whether we like it or not!

 

[Randall]

Further to my post above where I was describing how the Trickster element tends to interfere in communications when we try to get a handle on it. I was about to mention how sometimes it's not simply how we interpret things, but the communication failure is an actual literal breakdown. Phones behave strangely, radios cut out, memory becomes corrupted, and so on. Then no sooner was I going to post that comment than the Paracast was hit with some kind of DOS attack and the site went down. I managed to capture these in the process:

And it happened again temporarily right after I posted this.
Sheer coincidence right?
​

 

[Muadib]

Further to my post above where I was describing how the Trickster element tends to interfere in communications when we try to get a handle on it. I was about to mention how sometimes it's not simply how we interpret things, but the communication failure is an actual literal breakdown. Phones behave strangely, radios cut out, memory becomes corrupted, and so on. Then no sooner was I going to post that comment than the Paracast was hit with some kind of DOS attack and the site went down. I managed to capture these in the process:

And it happened again temporarily right after I posted this.
Sheer coincidence right?
​

Yeah something has been up with the site since last night, I've only been able to access it intermittently. Sometimes it loads right up, the rest of the time it just times out, meanwhile the rest of the internet seems just fine. Pretty weird. You really have to wonder why the hell someone would bother to DDoS a small site like this...

 

[Jeff Davis]

I can concure. The site went down last night as I was attempting to respond to this specific thread. I read Ufology's words, nearly had a heart attack, and couldn't get on to respond.

I swear to goodness I thought Rod Serling paid me a visit in personal last night. That or they've been spraying LSD laced chemtrails up there in Canada.

Holy crap!

I think we already started with the language of the trickster and now we're trying to make some sense of it. I don't think the trickster would be very happy if we didn't try to figure out the riddles it presents us with. It's whole purpose is to nudge us forward by questioning what we don't know, not to undo what we already know.

Trickster, as in Vallee??? (and all those that ran with his idea after the fact)

UFO icons as sentient's evolution's calling card? That's what I have been stating here since the first day I started posting here. Sentient Evolution is what I have contended UFOs represent for years now. This is the very type of thing that you have argued me staunchly into the ground over.

Something tells me that Ufology knows more about that trickster than he's letting onto. LOL!

 

[Burnt State]

But there is some sort of compulsion or imperative that appears to be operative. That's the key: The sum total of the parts may be steering the gene-pool ship outward toward survival. Or the planet itself, "Gaia" may be giving us a nudge into space... The human race is like a baby bird in the nest. I don't care what Jerry says: The species is connected on some sort of collective level. It has to be, or we're in trouble! We live in a wonderful, bio-diverse "hive" whether we like it or not!

My favourite personal theory on UFO's is that the plant community, which has a communication stream way beyond our capacity, is responsible for most of the appearances of strange lights in the sky (though I know what I saw were two definitely constructed craft, but that's beside the point). In an attemt to appeal to our curious nature the flora is just trying to distract our consumer, hate spewing, war mongering, planet poisoning lifestyle. They flash lights in the sky and say to us encouragingly, "Look up here. Use your imagination; think science. Think about this puzzle." But that was all before we got cell phones and slick plastic to rub against.

Something tells me that Ufology knows more about that trickster than he's letting onto. LOL!

Tell me about it. What's he been holding back on all along? Maybe he needs to reopen the trickster file folder and fill us in. I'm very interested in the communication breakdown piece. I wonder what the Indigenous literature has to say about that. Are we not supposed to talk, just stand in awe, catching flies in our mouths, too stunned to do anything but look (b/c that was my response)?

Sentient Evolution: have you already given out a primer on that?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Trickster, as in Vallee??? (and all those that ran with his idea after the fact)

Vallee, huh? Show me one place in his many books where Vallee mentions the trickster—even one time… he didn't and you can't, believe me, I looked. Besides George Hanson The Trickster and the Paranormal (who was a real inspiration to me, btw) NO ONE IN UFOLOGY OR THE PARANORMAL to my knowledge equated a trickster mechanism as a causal element behind the any of these phenomena until my book. Read Stalking the Trickster… you might enjoy it and learn a thing or two

 

[Wade]

Although I think Jim Brandon came close with "Rebirth of Pan"

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Although I think Jim Brandon came close with "Rebirth of Pan"

Good point, Pan could be considered as a trickster form. Plus Weird America talk about tricksterish events happening everywhere and anywhere at some point in time. Its also like mercury splitting and scooting away from attempts to capture it. Like you-foes and big feet to me.

 

[Randall]

Trickster, as in Vallee???

I was referring more to our own @Christopher O'Brien who dedicated an entire book to the subject, and I would highly recommend to anyone interested in this subject. I must have really struck a nerve because my IP appears to also have been accidentally banned. I only managed to get through today via an Internet hotspot and my laptop.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Vallee, huh? Show me one place in his many books where Vallee mentions the trickster—even one time… he didn't and you can't, believe me, I looked. Besides George Hanson The Trickster and the Paranormal (who was a real inspiration to me, btw) NO ONE IN UFOLOGY OR THE PARANORMAL to my knowledge equated a trickster mechanism as a causal element behind the any of these phenomena until my book. Read Stalking the Trickster… you might enjoy it and learn a thing or two

If what you are stating is that Vallee needed to use the term "trickster" to describe EXACTLY what he contended in "Messengers of Deception" then you are correct. Otherwise, not so much. I credit Vallee with the notion of presenting UFOs as a "control system based on deception via our observations and interactions with the phenomena" What is the trickster if not just that?

I understand that the "trickster" as you refer to it expands to include a myriad of cultural relevance.

In fact I will go this far as to state there is actually NOTHING new under the face of the sun. ANYTHING that ANY of us can or will think about as we wonder endlessly concerning these phenomena, has been thought of before.

Chris,
Are you honestly contending that you were the first to consider the phenomena an intentional human deception? I have books from the 50s that do that. IMO, Fort himself believed that the phenomena represented a superior form of control that demonstrated itself via his ultimate conclusion. That we are all the property of the author's of the phenomena. Cattle need to be herded and tended to Chris. IMO, much of what Fort documented in terms of phenomena represented just that. A very deceptive control system.

Shape shifting craft, or myth inducing demigods, sounds like the work of the precise same source to me, from a strictly observational stand point that is.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

If what you are stating is that Vallee needed to use the term "trickster" to describe EXACTLY what he contended in "Messengers of Deception" then you are correct.

Language is important. I was referring to the term you used, "trickster." In a Jungarian sense, Valle, Forte, Keel—even Jung himself never equated the archetype of the trickster to UFOs or the paranormal. Thats all I am saying.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Language is important. I was referring to the term you used, "trickster." In a Jungarian sense, Valle, Forte, Keel—even Jung himself never equated the archetype of the trickster to UFOs or the paranormal. Thats all I am saying.

Chris,
Don't be misled, I APPRECIATE your work SO MUCH!! That's why I am here. IMO, the comment was just misunderstood. Ufology typically comes at the phenomena with a very scientifically hard approach. I admire that, and frankly, it's something that Ufology typically dawns like a favorite hat. This is ALL a good thing! The trickster is more so the mystical take (in fact, by it's own definition, it's the very essence of what is mysticism) with respect to a dichotomy of hypothetical positioning we typically orientate ourselves to. It's me that is normally the "mystical" one with respect to what I personally contend in a hypothetical sense. You're absolute integrity as an investigator in every sense is not only inspiring to me (read: recent Randle/Dream Team posts by me to verify), I also find your professed views very compelling via their general intelligent momentum. This is NOT to placate you either. I think you know me to be a little more so sincere than that. I'm a professed nut case.

IMO, I see so much deception, dramatically so, as a mode of operation within the entirety of what are Fortean considerations, whenever I think of phenomenal subterfuge, I just have a hard time not gravitating back to Vallee's studies because of the way he logically delineates his perspectives to a "control system", rather than "demons" in the precise manner Keel did. Frankly, I don't give a rat's bottom what anyone thinks, this phenomena, in terms of observation, and even the hypothetical participant's reports themselves, speak clearly of that which is methodically directing mankind via a form of image based deception that I can find no evidence whatsoever of a benevolence within. NONE.

These things are NOT our friends. If anything, they are incapable of anything but what we might optimistically conclude is indifference at best. Much like an ant to a human being. HOWEVER, they constantly show us that the DO have an extremely serious and unbending program of human interests underway. They present themselves as ultimately, non-relevant to the human condition. And yet they seem to be accomplishing, precisely what they have been accomplishing, since the beginning of recorded history with respect to their observations by us.

This is precisely why I believe personally that consciousness research with respect to the phenomena is so critical. Unless we fully understand the process, or manner, that these phenomena intersect with our abilities to perceive them, what hope do we really have? The cycle will repeat throughout time immemorial. Cultural relevance is just trickster food.

I don't think "they" are from anywhere "out there". Why should I? All they have ever done is deceive mankind via imagery. Why should this, within the logical historic process that Vallee presents, be ANY different?

 

[red_pill_junkie]

Thanks Folks i really enjoyed the experience and would be happy to take part again

More on the Gene Roddenberry matter



The Secret Sun: The Council of Nine and the Star Trek Pantheon

From Deep Space to the Nine | Star Trek | Specials | Fortean Times UK

As i mention on the show this story has been doing the rounds for a long time, i first read about before the internets were a household feature.

As to the truth of the story, who knows.

All of, Parts of, or None of it could be true.

But i always watch Star Trek with this story in mind, for me it adds that extra "i wonder.........." element

Last year I attended the Paradigm symposium --the event Micah & Scotty were promoting the last time they came to the show-- and one of the speakers was Dan Madsen, the founder of the original Star Trek fan club.

Not only did he give a kick-ass presentation --personally it was the one that I enjoyed the most on an emotional level-- but I took the opportunity, since he was such a good friend of Gene Roddenberry, of asking him about the story of The Nine & Gene's involvement with the Esalen institute, and how much that influenced his later Sci-Fi work.

In his opinion the story had no basis.

I commented upon that on Chris Knowles' blog, and he replied that it was a natural reaction for the people who didn't want to accept Gene's involvement with The Nine. I respect Knowles tremendously as a thinker & analyst of pop culture, so make of that what you will.

Just a final thought: Gene said all this "didn't matter" because it's just 'Sci-Fi stories'. I must respectfully but strongly disagree. We're not just talking about pulp fiction fodder here; we're talking about myths & archetypes that keep recycling & reappearing on human culture since the dawn of time. If it that wasn't the case then millions of people wouldn't be devoting so much time & energy on TV shows & films that are 40-50 years old.

I strongly recommend to the Paracast community to read Jeffrey Kripal's book Mutants & Mystics, which deals with the deep crosspolination between pop culture & what we call 'paranormal' phenomena. It makes the compelling argument that the best way to tackle all these mysteries is from a narrative perspective, rather than an empirical one.

Saludos,

RPJ

 

[Jeff Davis]

I strongly recommend to the Paracast community to read Jeffrey Kripal's book Mutants & Mystics, which deals with the deep crosspolination between pop culture & what we call 'paranormal' phenomena. It makes the compelling argument that the best way to tackle all these mysteries is from a narrative perspective, rather than an empirical one.

Saludos,

RPJ

And wouldn't it be something if we were to find within the workings of consciousness, that nearly 100% of the truly unexplained Fortean events (read: UFOs, Bigfoot, Real Paranormal stuff, not frogs falling from the sky) represent a completely natural evolutionary projection process wherein our imagination's best, is our own best friend with respect to natural selection? I realize that Sentient Evolution (my own pet name for this type of hypothetical evolution) is an OLD idea, but one that I believe holds great value. I have a book by a man that I believe was named Basil Crump if I remember correctly. It's from the 30s I'm thinking, and it is titled "Evolution As Outlined in The Archaic Eastern Records". I highly recommend it.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

And wouldn't it be something if we were to find within the workings of consciousness, that nearly 100% of the truly unexplained Fortean events (read: UFOs, Bigfoot, Real Paranormal stuff, not frogs falling from the sky) represent a completely natural evolutionary projection process wherein our imagination's best, is our own best friend with respect to natural selection? I realize that Sentient Evolution (my own pet name for this type of hypothetical evolution) is an OLD idea, but one that I believe holds great value. I have a book by a man that I believe was named Basil Crump if I remember correctly. It's from the 30s I'm thinking, and it is titled "Evolution As Outlined in The Archaic Eastern Records". I highly recommend it.

I just finished reading Earth X, written by Alex Krueger & based on ideas by Alex Ross, which explores the ultimate fate of the Marvel heroes in the not-so distant future, while at the same time tackling with a lot of the weird ideas Kirby was (unconsciously) exploring while he was in full swing.

One of the most interesting ideas proposed in the story, is the concept of a race of higher beings called The Celestials, who a long time ago came to Earth & tampered with the evolution of several species, including in the human race, implanting on us a genetic 'seed' which would be allowed to germinate in time by the influence of radiation --either natural or artificial. But the seed would also influence the dreams & ideas of scientists & artists, and would be the source of inspiration for most of 'our' technological innovation.

All these ideas --Mutation, Radiation-- is explored extensively by Kripal

 

[nameless]

I wanted to ask Mike if he had any key sightings or paranormal experiences, i'm sure living in a hot spot there probably has been.

 

[Burnt State]

Frankly, I don't give a rat's bottom what anyone thinks, this phenomena, in terms of observation, and even the hypothetical participant's reports themselves, speak clearly of that which is methodically directing mankind via a form of image based deception that I can find no evidence whatsoever of a benevolence within. NONE.

These things are NOT our friends. If anything, they are incapable of anything but what we might optimistically conclude is indifference at best. Much like an ant to a human being.

And yet we are not ants at all to the phenomena. Humans kill many ants everyday, but UFO's have a very low kill rate; I would argue there has been none proven to date. I do see constant indifference in the literature but it appears to be of a highly benign nature.

I don't think "they" are from anywhere "out there". Why should I? All they have ever done is deceive mankind via imagery. Why should this, within the logical historic process that Vallee presents, be ANY different?

So then, all that physical trace evidence, radar recordings etc., would you say that these are simply an example of the image being magcally and simultaneously both image and physical craft? Is it paradox?

 

[stonehart]

Loved this book.... RIP to a great author.

Why I mention this book is that it has a concept called the "Outside Context Problem" I think this sums up the paranormal and UFO's in a nut shell... we have no context upon which we can truly measure the phenomena.

"An outside context problem was the sort of thing most civilizations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encounters a full stop. The usual example given to illustrate an outside context problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you'd tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbors were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass.... When suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sail-less and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny looking sticks come ashore and announce you've just been discovered, you're all subjects of the Emperor now, he's keen on presents called tax and these bright eyed holy men would like a word with your priests... that was an outside context problem."

Sorry this maybe off topic but I think that little bit of the book is very cool and I often think of it when it comes to the paranormal for some reason.