Ray Stanford — May 18, 2014 Episode

[withoutlimits09]

Sometimes I feel the alien say, "haha, let's put this odd meaningless symbol on our craft then watch them agonize over it"

For all we know, UFOs can be some other civilization's teenagers out on a joy ride.

 

[Burnt State]

I doubt that they are all 'impossibly different' from us. Indeed, our species might have been engineered by one or more of those species at points in our evolution, which might account for the extreme contrasts and contradictions in values and behavior among members of the species we have become at this point.

I think we're able by now to rule out some motives, such as destruction of our species or planet, at least by the variety of species that have interacted with humans over the last 65 years. If we rule out destruction of ourselves and usurpation of 'our' planet (at least by species that have so far shown up), I think we can narrow down the possible motives to a manageable number of rational ones.

I think we impose human concepts of exploration, altruism and purpose onto them. Any ability to relate to them is speculation and supposition. Frequently I've interpreted what appears to be a relativey benign indifference to us in the UFO phenomenon as part of some form of personal advancement on their behalf. But really, I don't think we can identify rational motives or otherwise outside of what we perceive as rational. Take this post around UFO species contact and motive from 2011:

[URL="https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/my-ufo-sighting-my-first-post.8080/#post-108188"]My 'UFO' sighting/My first post![/URL]

This dispassionate position starts from the vantage point that if actual contact happens our end will be imminent. So moving forward from there if we actually have had these brief glimpses, and snatches of images and figures here and there from elsewhere and that's all we've got, well then I think that's all we've got. I'm totally there for imaginative speculation and celebrate these discussions, but after last call at the paranormal bar called Tonnies, I would be taking the position that just about everything we say about UFO's is us writing new mythologies.

I do like RPJ's notion of how our own expanding thought and imagination is a great consequence of this pursuit. There's value there.

 

[marduk]

They may not 'love' us, but it looks as if they value the perpetuation of life.

.

Well, they don't often respond when we attack them.

Whether that's indifference or benevolence is unknown.

 

[marduk]

OK, we know they have the means because they are here.

We know they have the motive because they are doing this, we just dont know what it is.

We know they have the opportunity because they bypass any defense we have.

I'm back to the thing I think we have the best shot at cracking: the means. Their propulsion capabilities are really the only thing we have data on.

 

[Constance]

Marduk, you've probably read Paul Hill's book on ufo propulsion, but if not, you'd enjoy it. Here's a link:

Unconventional Flying Objects: A Former NASA Scientist Explains How UFOs Really Work: Paul R. Hill, Robert Wood, Don Donderi: 9781571747136: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Burnt State]

Here's Putoff's synopsis of Hill's book for a JSE Review. Great text recommendation, Constance.
http://www.disclosureproject.org/docs/pdf/ScienceArticle1.pdf

 

[marduk]

I haven't, but I will now!

Thanks!

We appear to think similar things:

Also of interest is Hill's analysis of the spectra and intensity of an apparent plasma sheath surrounding such craft, the details of which correlate with what one would expect in terms of it being a secondary effect associated with the propulsion system...
​

and

In the final analysis, one must conclude that Hill has assembled as good a case as can be made on the basis of presently available data that the observation of some "unconventional flying objects" is compatible with the presence of engineered platforms weighing in at something around 30 tons, which are capable of 100-g accelerations and 9000-mph speeds in the atmosphere. Perhaps more important for the technical reader, however, is Hill's supporting argumentation, based on solid analysis, that these platforms, although exhibiting the application of physics and engineering principles clearly beyond our present-day capabilities, do not appearto defy these principles in any fundamental way.
​

in other words, they're not necessarily beyond our comprehension, nor are they "indistinguishable from magic."

 

[Constance]

Here's Putoff's synopsis of Hill's book for a JSE Review. Great text recommendation, Constance.
http://www.disclosureproject.org/docs/pdf/ScienceArticle1.pdf

Puthoff's synopsis of Hill's physical insights is also very helpful; I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for that link.

 

[Constance]

. . . in other words, they're not necessarily beyond our comprehension, nor are they "indistinguishable from magic."

Exactly. The other major take-away point from Hill's long-delayed, indeed posthumous, publication of his work on ufo physics at NASA is that NASA itself cannot be trusted in its public statements about ufos -- has obviously long been part of the official ufo coverup in this country. Many of us have realized this for years . It's time everybody did.

 

[Constance]

ps: ufo researchers -- the significant ones who have invested their lives in this subject and have scoured all the available data, and who are frequently disparaged and dismissed here -- have long since investigated and informed us about the evidence and reasoning that lead to the conclusion that an official US coverup and suppression of ufo information has been maintained for at least the past 65 years. Their work should be studied, not trivialized.

 

[Constance]

A further note concerning Ray Stanford's reluctance to release his own ufo data at this point: if Paul Hill, a longtime NASA insider, was intimidated by fear of the consequences of making his own ufo investigations public over many decades, why should Mr. Stanford not also be permitted -- without harassment and prejudice from the merely curious and impatient in the internet ufo community -- to decide when and how he will release the data he has obtained?

 

[marduk]

A further note concerning Ray Stanford's reluctance to release his own ufo data at this point: if Paul Hill, a longtime NASA insider, was intimidated by fear of the consequences of making his own ufo investigations public over many decades, why should Mr. Stanford not also be permitted -- without harassment and prejudice from the merely curious and impatient in the internet ufo community -- to decide when and how he will release the data he has obtained?

Two reasons:

#1 he's a scientist and peer review is part of the scientific method. Either he should stop talking about his results or he should release his data and have it be subject to data replication. Why do you think the cold fusion guys are in trouble? Because they released their results as fact via holding a press release and talking about it publicly before anyone viewed their data or replicated their experiment. That's just not good science.

#2 because it's too damn important to mankind if it is true.

 

[Constance]

Perhaps he has shared his data with other scientists and engineers. I think that's likely. We know who some of those scientists and engineers would be (Puthoff, Deardorff, Haisch, Maccabee, Mitchell, and others known by them who work in the black projects, who communicate confidentially with them and press for disclosure on the inside).

 

[Constance]

JBIS,Vol. 58, pp.43-50, 2005
Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraerrestrial Visitation

J. DEARDORFF1, B. HAISCH2, B. MACCABEE3, AND H.E. PUTHOFF4
1. 1689 S.W. Knollbrook Pl., Corvallis, Oregon 97333, USA.
2. National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomena (NARCAP), Post Office Box 1535,
Vallejo, California, USA.
3. Fund for UFO Research, Post Office Box 277, Mt Rainier, Maryland, 20712, USA.
4. Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, 4030 W. Braker Ln., Suite 300, Austin, Texas 78759, USA.
Email: [email protected]

Abstract:
It has recently been argued that anthropic reasoning applied to inflation theory reinforces the prediction that we should find ourselves part of a large, galaxy-sized civilisation, thus strengthening Fermi’s paradox concerning “Where are they?” Furthermore, superstring and M-brane theory allow for the possibility of parallel
universes, some of which in principle could be habitable. In addition, discussion of such exotic transport concepts as “traversable wormholes” now appears in the rigorous physics literature. As a result, the “We are alone” solution to Fermi’s paradox, based on the constraints of earlier 20th century viewpoints, appears today to be inconsistent with new developments in our best current physics and astrophysics theories. Therefore we reexamine and reevaluate the present assumption that extraterrestrials or their probes are not in the vicinity of
Earth, and argue instead that some evidence of their presence might be found in certain high-quality UFO reports. This study follows up on previous arguments that (1) interstellar travel for advanced civilizations is not a priori ruled out by physical principles and therefore may be practicable, and (2) such advanced
civilisations may value the search for knowledge from uncontaminated species more than direct, interspecies communication, thereby accounting for apparent covertness regarding their presence.

Keywords:
Fermi paradox, extraterrestrial hypothesis, extraterrestrial visitation, UFO phenomenon, Condon Report, SETI

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf

 

[Constance]

Two reasons:

#2 because it's too damn important to mankind if it is true.

Yes it is, but who has screwed mankind by withholding 65 years's worth of information accumulated in military experience with ufos and confusing the subject with disinformation and ridicule sopped up not just by the unwashed, unread, masses but also by people who ought to know better in the 'internet ufo community' itself? Members of that community who merely entertain readers with their speculations and personal attacks -- exemplifed in their reactions to Stanford -- seem to me by now to have done an almost equivalent amount of damage to the serious researchers' efforts over six decades to prepare people on this planet for what might well be over the horizon. It seems still more incredible to me that these same people and their followers expect, even demand, that individual researchers such as Ray Stanford should now put themselves and their families at risk in order to satisfy their own relatively meagre curiosity.

 

[marduk]

Yes it is, but who has screwed mankind by withholding 65 years's worth of information accumulated in military experience with ufos and confusing the subject with disinformation and ridicule sopped up not just by the unwashed, unread, masses but also by people who ought to know better in the 'internet ufo community' itself?

I'm not of the opinion the military, government, or the "power elite" have any clue what is going on. If anything, they're more confused than anyone else.

And that's if this enigma has triggered the military immune system at all.

Members of that community who merely entertain readers with their speculations and personal attacks -- exemplifed in their reactions to Stanford -- seem to me by now to have done an almost equivalent amount of damage to the serious researchers' efforts over six decades to prepare people on this planet for what might well be over the horizon. It seems still more incredible to me that these same people and their followers expect, even demand, that individual researchers such as Ray Stanford should now put themselves and their families at risk in order to satisfy their own relatively meagre curiosity.

Sure. What more can be expected?

 

[marduk]

Altruism may be a anthropocentric conceit burnt, but not exploration.

This is part of the evolutionary drive to reproductive fitness and should be common.

Exploitation of new ecological niches and resource competition should drive this behaviour in life as we know it.

 

[Burnt State]

Yes, I also believe that "what's out there" must be a powerful drive for any species with a brain, that's expanding and exhausting their local resources. So then, if we have desirable resources and UFO's are aliens fom elsewhere, then I would think that we should have been zapped into slavery or cattle a ways back.

Either our resources are bunk, they're just really benign, or no one in fact is visiting at all, and this UFO thing is just a story we've made up to wonder about like the Beast of Gévaudan, or other bits of folklore, myths and other urban legends. Tales of BEK, and Slender Man really convince me of such human confabulations.

A real fact or unknown experience transforms suddenly into myth.

 

[marduk]

Yes, I also believe that "what's out there" must be a powerful drive for any species with a brain, that's expanding and exhausting their local resources. So then, if we have desirable resources and UFO's are aliens fom elsewhere, then I would think that we should have been zapped into slavery or cattle a ways back.

Either our resources are bunk, they're just really benign, or no one in fact is visiting at all, and this UFO thing is just a story we've made up to wonder about like the Beast of Gévaudan, or other bits of folklore, myths and other urban legends. Tales of BEK, and Slender Man really convince me of such human confabulations.

What I'm saying is that even if a civilization outgrows the need to exploit resources (let's say they're an advanced type I or II or higher)... they have abundant material wealth and no need to come here and steal our women or whatever.

They would likely still have the instinctive drive to explore I would expect. As a holdover from, you know, being alive and evolving.

 

[Burnt State]

What I'm saying is that even if a civilization outgrows the need to exploit resources (let's say they're an advanced type I or II or higher)... they have abundant material wealth and no need to come here and steal our women or whatever.

They would likely still have the instinctive drive to explore I would expect. As a holdover from, you know, being alive and evolving.

I also favour this utopic vision of ET as most observations, outside of AP probing, appears in the guise of friendly, indifferent or ticksterish behaviours. Just a couple of compadres in coveralls out in the desert, and sporting sparkly threads, gathering some soil samples and water, freaking out the locals in the middle of the night on isolated highways etc.

Really, outside of those supposedly deadly Brazilian light beams sucking our blood the whole phenomenon's been more the subject of polite and mostly strange actions, but that's probably just cross species cultural confusion.