December 27th - Budd Hopkins & Doug

[jkoci]

Just got done listening to the latest episode. Doug seems to have experienced a lifetime of intense encounters. Maybe one day he will be able to explore his experiences more deeply to find out what exactly happened to him. It sounds like 2005 was his latest. Have there been any since then?

 

[Brian Now]

Doug

It was definitely an interesting interview. I think I get a slight bit suspicious any time there's "hypnotic regression" involved, but Doug said he only recovered one memory from that session and that was the electric shock he felt in the desert.
Still though, I wonder if people might learn to do some autosuggestion (is that a word?) unknowingly after they've experienced hypnosis.

The two things I find really hard to accept as they were presented, was the idea the hospital wouldn't let a mother even look her 2 year-old child for several weeks. And secondly, it's hard to believe the roll of film was intentionally stolen by Kodak or whoever. I'd find it easier to believe they just accidentally destroyed it during developing.

However, the sightings were interesting. I tried but I can't find a May 2005 sighting in Connecticut in the Nuforc results. Guess it wasn't reported.

 

[EQ42]

Doug

The two things I find really hard to accept as they were presented, was the idea the hospital wouldn't let a mother even look her 2 year-old child for several weeks. And secondly, it's hard to believe the roll of film was intentionally stolen by Kodak or whoever. I'd find it easier to believe they just accidentally destroyed it during developing.

These were both weird and I also find the one about the hospital a bit hard to accept. Maybe the mother was wrong about the amount of time- maybe it wasn't that long. Also, it sounded like it was a Catholic hospital, I seem to recall him mentioning something about the "nuns". Are you familiar with the Indian Residential Schools in Canada? Most were run by the Catholic Church and the last one didn't close until 1984. People would be shocked at the abuses the Catholic Church were able to get away with in those schools. Here's a synopsis:
http://www.irsss.ca/history.html
Things were a bit different with hospitals in general back then (husbands not allowed in delivery rooms) and perhaps with Catholic hospitals things were very different. I'm inclined to think the amount of time his mother was not allowed to visit was not that long- that it seemed longer to her than it actually was. He says there is a picture of him in a cast so something happened.
As far as the film. My understanding is that it was dropped off at one of those kiosks that would return it within a matter of hours. They were more expensive than mailing your film but you got the prints much sooner. I would have thought the film would have been developed onsite at the kiosk but I guess someone would pick up their film for the day and develop it at a nearby building. Perhaps the facility that did the developing wasn't a huge operation. Things were probably highly automated but I bet someone could easily see those pictures as they came out. Maybe they thought they could get rich selling them to the Enquirer or something. I admit it's all very convenient if you tend to think the guy is full of it.

 

[Gareth]

Doug

The only part that made me squirm was the reference to a "hybrid" standing over him. Its like, huh?

But super interesting interview. That whole deal with the camera film that supposedly was given to the development shop, but not returned. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON THERE?

Too weird.

 

[EQ42]

Doug

I rarely find alleged abductees credible but I found Doug credible. I think the main reason why is that there were other people with him during at least two up close sightings. Of course he could be lying about everything but I got the feeling he was telling the truth. I appreciate David slowing him down and making sure he provided details- it seemed like he would occasionally start midway through a story and want to race through it. There were only two moments that gave me pause. When he claimed he was reading a book a day- and reading heady stuff like quantum mechanics, philosophy, religion, etc. I'm probably biased because I'm a slow reader but I found that hard to accept. Also, when describing the sighting in CT and David had him slow down and he said something like, "There have been so many." I'm not saying the sighting in CT didn't happen but I can't help but wonder if he has had some genuine experiences and his mind has started to fabricate others. Still, I found him to be a fascinating guest- one of the most compelling experiencers I've heard. I found the story near the end about his encounter with a hybrid intriguing and the health problems that happened as a result sounded awful. I don't know- the whole abductee phenomena is just so hard to accept. But I think Doug was essentially telling the truth.
David mentioned something about having other abductees on future episodes. I hope the Paracast is able to find some that come across as credible as Doug. I'd love to hear them.

 

[Vomitor]

Doug

I think you did a good job on doug, but i also had a hard time with the episode with both the wives. Im not saying that he was lying, but possibly blocking a whole lot out. The story didnt hold up...they see the disc at 9 0'clock, and suddenly its dark...even at the shortest day of the year this would have to be at least 7 hours woulodnt it? How could he not have thought of that, and be actually suggesting that only a few hours went by.

And i could have hoped that you would have prodded more into the missing pictures thing...again, im not saying he is lying, it might even be some kind of false memory..but its exactly these kind of details that stretches the credibility for most people. It takes the influence of the UFO/occupants to a whole different level to suggest that they have that kind of ability, and makes you kind of wonder how much of this kind of control is going on. Its interesting as hell, but it would be good to explore those kinds of things more, to learn how such a thing would actually be possible.

 

[Gareth]

Doug

Yeah I was hoping there would be more Qs about the photos. I have no idea what else could be asked about that, but it was just so weird with some insane implications.

Could an investigator put some pressure on the employees there to see if anyone knows anything? Maybe theres a MIB story just waiting to be told.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Doug

Yeah I was hoping there would be more Qs about the photos. I have no idea what else could be asked about that, but it was just so weird with some insane implications.

Could an investigator put some pressure on the employees there to see if anyone knows anything? Maybe theres a MIB story just waiting to be told.

There are any number of reasons why the photos have been lost. It could have been due to outside influence, to advance the conspiratorial point of view, or just plain incompetence. How can you know? Indeed, it's extremely questionable whether the processing company is even in business anymore in light of how the industry has changed in the ensuing decades.

In the end, I don't know how you could even begin to follow up what happened here.

 

[jkoci]

Doug

The only part that made me squirm was the reference to a "hybrid" standing over him. Its like, huh?

Same here. Especially his description. I assume that was that something he remembered without hypnosis.

 

[Vomitor]

Doug

Well i dont think we could ever learn exactly what happened, but it seems that its just a bit too convenient that those photos went missing. Other times, ufo photos come out alright but show no craft. What im getting at is that perhaps they only think that they took those pictures, that it all could be some kind of false memory thing. I dont know, i just felt that it wasnt explored enough.

Another thing that im sure i wasnt the only one contemplating, was the military-air force angle to the case...its possible that something was going on in relation to that...however one wants to interpret it. Especially that thing with the hospital when doug was a kid, if indeed that really happened as his mom remembers

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Doug

Well i dont think we could ever learn exactly what happened, but it seems that its just a bit too convenient that those photos went missing. Other times, ufo photos come out alright but show no craft. What im getting at is that perhaps they only think that they took those pictures, that it all could be some kind of false memory thing. I dont know, i just felt that it wasnt explored enough.

Another thing that im sure i wasnt the only one contemplating, was the military-air force angle to the case...its possible that something was going on in relation to that...however one wants to interpret it. Especially that thing with the hospital when doug was a kid, if indeed that really happened as his mom remembers

All right, and is turning in five rolls of film for developing and getting four back, and complaining to the photo finishing plant and getting the promise of free service also a "screen memory"?

I'm not following the logic here.

 

[aaronpsych]

Doug

Great episode, look forward to more shows delving into personal experiences.
Congratulations to Gene, Dave and Budd for handling a person in Doug's condition in such an expert and delicate manner. To my mind, Doug presented as severely affected by his experiences. His description of the events as 'like a horror movie', was extremely credible in my opinion.

 

[Vomitor]

Doug

All right, and is turning in five rolls of film for developing and getting four back, and complaining to the photo finishing plant and getting the promise of free service also a "screen memory"?

I'm not following the logic here. [/unquote]

yeah but right now we only have doug to tell us that this was what happened, noone else has confirmed it. Maybe it did happen like he said, and the people in the photo shop were threatened or manipulated. Its not something we have to keep drilling into here. I'm just often wondering about these incidents where what would be amazing evidence disappears out of the blue, and would have liked to hear some more details about this particular one.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Doug

All right, and is turning in five rolls of film for developing and getting four back, and complaining to the photo finishing plant and getting the promise of free service also a "screen memory"?

I'm not following the logic here. [/unquote]

yeah but right now we only have doug to tell us that this was what happened, noone else has confirmed it. Maybe it did happen like he said, and the people in the photo shop were threatened or manipulated. Its not something we have to keep drilling into here. I'm just often wondering about these incidents where what would be amazing evidence disappears out of the blue, and would have liked to hear some more details about this particular one.

Well, I suppose you could ask him to show the receipts if he even has them after all these years -- or even wanted that reminder of a horrible experience. But even if he has those receipts and the correspondence with the finishing lab, it doesn't prove what was on those photos, right?

 

[Vomitor]

Doug

True, it doesnt - but at least shows that he was there and wether he turned in the amount of rolls he says (if indeed the receipt would say that since he never received the right amount?).

I'm not trying to be a debunker, but all these cases mentioned where people lost photos, accidently erased video, or never captured what they say they did are so unsatisfying. This isnt denying that there was an experience, but perhaps if you want to find some more non-conspiratorial explanation that makes sense, you could look at it alternatively as an extreme type cognitive dissidence that comes together with the experience.

 

[EQ42]

Doug

There was also his brother's roll of film with the missing frames.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Doug

True, it doesnt - but at least shows that he was there and wether he turned in the amount of rolls he says (if indeed the receipt would say that since he never received the right amount?).

I'm not trying to be a debunker, but all these cases mentioned where people lost photos, accidently erased video, or never captured what they say they did are so unsatisfying. This isnt denying that there was an experience, but perhaps if you want to find some more non-conspiratorial explanation that makes sense, you could look at it alternatively as an extreme type cognitive dissidence that comes together with the experience.

Only how many people save receipts for that period of time, particularly when it involves experiences they'd just rather never happened? It's a valid point to be skeptical about such matters, but I don't know that there's much more meat to find here.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Doug

There was also his brother's roll of film with the missing frames.

True, but do you think they'd still keep them around?

 

[EQ42]

Doug

The Enquirer used to pay big money for ufo photos. I still think it could be nothing more than an employee who wanted to get rich. Or maybe to show his friends. Or maybe there was some MIB thing going on. Who knows. But if you have four people and all four have conscious memories of the encounter I think it really happened. Of course we only heard from one of the people- and he could be lying. I understand the skepticism- it does seem far too convenient that the pictures disappeared. But I think Doug was being honest about that encounter- I think it occurred.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Doug

The Enquirer used to pay big money for ufo photos. I still think it could be nothing more than an employee who wanted to get rich. Or maybe to show his friends. Or maybe there was some MIB thing going on. Who knows. But if you have four people and all four have conscious memories of the encounter I think it really happened. Of course we only heard from one of the people- and he could be lying. I understand the skepticism- it does seem far too convenient that the pictures disappeared. But I think Doug was being honest about that encounter- I think it occurred.

The absence of this alleged evidence proves nothing one way or the other, since we don't have it to analyze.

At the end of the day, Doug isn't seeking publicity about his encounters. He didn't even want us to reveal his real name, and has never gone after 15 minutes of fame.