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Smartest person you kn(e)w

I wouldnt give up any intelligence to gain more compassion.

Most ... avoid ... so ... many ... tempting ... witticisms ... there ... OK ... I'm good now!

OK - clearly that terse formulation is designed to invite further inquiry ... so I'll bite and ask you to expound on that statement.
 
[{QUOTE="Burnt State, post: 211437, member: 5332"]I don't think people live by general principles, or always apply logical thinking to emotional situations. Learning about other people's situations is about life experience, call it a kind of social wisdom that coincides with intellect.[/QUOTE]

Ok, good - bear with me, before we go further, we need a defintion of compassion.
 
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Why would anyone even suggest that you need to give up intelligence to gain more compassion? How much intelligence would you give up to be "enlightened"? How much intelligence would you give up to be able to love others? As a metaphor that everyone here knows, intellect is often viewed as being located in the head, whereas compassion is located in the heart. They are 2 separate things. The people who designed the Nazi Death Camps were probably extremely intelligent people but devoid of any heart=compassion. (Of course, they may have been clinical psychopaths who were incapable of empathy of any kind, yet intellectually brilliant). I actually was very annoyed by this thread, as people seemed (just to me) to be showing each other how intellectually smart they were via their association with other intellectually brilliant people. Maybe it is just my age (62). I am tired of the ego needing to puff itself up, like a bird on a cold day. This is probably just a personal issue for me, after a life time of Information Systems work where many peoples' idea of a casual conversation was to discuss their alma maters and rank them! God Help Me! I wanted to run screaming into the street! Yet I acknowledge that this thread has taken a miraculous turn, moving toward emotional IQ. The person I respect most in my life was a total unknown. I often had to work very late hours monitoring database loads and making statewide software releases available. Always, when I would do so, a janitor would stop by to chat. If the rest of the group were there, they would have been appalled at my open friendliness for this lowly clean-up man. But his warmth and kindness were new to me. The "soul" showing through this man was humbling, yet he always made me feel that I was much warmer and kinder than otherwise saw myself. He seemed to bring those traits to the surface. He was genuinely HAPPY in a role that everyone else in that glitzy 7 by 24 Data Center would consider horrible. He didn't lecture me like Socrates on the meaning of life - I seemed to simply know it via osmosis. He changed me forever. One night he was not there and another man replaced him. I asked about my friend, only to learn that the man replacing him that night was his boss. My friend had passed away that day so the boss was taking his place. The next night a young cold as ice Latino lad made the rounds emptying waste baskets. And so it was.

I realized that in my life what matters is being kind and loving. High intelligence is irrelevant. I am glad there are people out there who can design the latest high tech toy for us. I am glad that new medical diagnosis tools are coming on-line that save lives. I respect high intelligence, but just don't find it a personal goal or god in my life now. I feel that high intelligence is very highly valued here on the forum. For that reason, I probably won't ever feel very comfortable here. When I left in 2010, there were around 50 or more people contributing on the forum. Now it seems there are perhaps 10? Is the caliber of discussion just too high or risky for the other subscribers (assuming there are any) to feel comfortable joining in? (Shrug). Duh, I don't know. Well, while you guys debate how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, I think I will just join Winnie the Pooh in trying hard to "think, think, think" (tapping my head) where I left my bowl of honey.
 
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How much IQ would you give up to become more compassionate?
Is this a question about which is more valuable to an individual? To a culture? To a species? A planet?

What is compassion? Do we assume someone experiencing compassion acts accordingly?
 
Why would anyone even suggest that you need to give up intelligence to gain more compassion? How much intelligence would you give up to be "enlightened"? How much intelligence would you give up to be able to love others? As a metaphor that everyone here knows, intellect is often viewed as being located in the head, whereas compassion is located in the heart. They are 2 separate things. The people who designed the Nazi Death Camps were probably extremely intelligent people but devoid of any heart=compassion. (Of course, they may have been clinical psychopaths who were incapable of empathy of any kind, yet intellectually brilliant). I actually was very annoyed by this thread, as people seemed (just to me) to be showing each other how intellectually smart they were via their association with other intellectually brilliant people. Maybe it is just my age (62). I am tired of the ego needing to puff itself up, like a bird on a cold day. This is probably just a personal issue for me, after a life time of Information Systems work where many peoples' idea of a casual conversation was to discuss their alma maters and rank them! God Help Me! I wanted to run screaming into the street! Yet I acknowledge that this thread has taken a miraculous turn, moving toward emotional IQ. The person I respect most in my life was a total unknown. I often had to work very late hours monitoring database loads and making statewide software releases available. Always, when I would do so, a janitor would stop by to chat. If the rest of the group were there, they would have been appalled at my open friendliness for this lowly clean-up man. But his warmth and kindness were new to me. The "soul" showing through this man was humbling, yet he always made me feel that I was much warmer and kinder than otherwise saw myself. He seemed to bring those traits to the surface. He was genuinely HAPPY in a role that everyone else in that glitzy 7 by 24 Data Center would consider horrible. He didn't lecture me like Socrates on the meaning of life - I seemed to simply know it via osmosis. He changed me forever. One night he was not there and another man replaced him. I asked about my friend, only to learn that the man replacing him that night was his boss. My friend had passed away that day so the boss was taking his place. The next night a young cold as ice Latino lad made the rounds emptying waste baskets. And so it was.

I hope you'll stay with us ... I am kind of moving somewhere with this, at least in that I'm learning something and that seems to be pointing somewhere, but I really want to see what @Burnt State @Soupie and now you have to say (and everyone else who's posted on this thread earlier)

One note, I'm not suggesting that anyone should or has to give up intelligence for compassion ... it's a hypothetical and I still do want to hear everyone's answer. We did hypotheticals in law school and it's become a bad habit, but it really does help me in thinking through things.
 
Is this a question about which is more valuable to an individual? To a culture? To a species? A planet?

What is compassion? Do we assume someone experiencing compassion acts accordingly?

Here's the original set up ... we started talking about the smartest person you knew or know because I didn't have an answer to that, people often say so and so was the smartest person I know and I've never been able to answer that ...

I can relate to @beyondthestargate feelings because I grew up in a college environment where people did expend a lot of energy demonstrating how smart they were, so when I got out in the real world, I met all kinds of people with other intelligence ... most recently I worked for a large shipping company and came once again to appreciate the amount and kind of intelligence involved in a job that most people wouldn't associate with "smarts". They had a whole vocabulary and set of skills they brought to the job and all of a sudden I was a clumsy idiot ... I learned (again) you can't bring one kind of smart to another kind of situation, just because I did well in school didn't mean I could apply that to any situation. Right ... duh on me.

But I left the question open ended on purpose because I also wanted to know what people thought "smart" meant ... @Burntstate started with emotional intelligence and went on to name several other kinds ...

from there, I thought, OK - maybe I don't key in on who the smartest person was because no one person stands out - I've met people who were smart in many different ways - and the amount of information, processing power, experience etc is probably the same for the concert violinist, PhD mathematician and the electrician who re-wired my house without a diagram ... and then I remembered a study where extremely high IQs showed up at several times the expected rate ... (not to bring in the whole IQ vs intelligence thing) but that made me wonder ... ok, maybe we have plenty of smarts, maybe it's not that rare ... so that led me to this next question (posted above)

I'm thinking now there is plenty of smart - some studies show extremely high IQs appear at several times the expected frequency ...
And what we lack are other qualities ...
So let me ask this question ... what is the rarest human quality? What does the world need more of?
What is it that there is just too little of?

@burntstate replied:

compassion

and that's where we are now ... as I've said I'm both learning and kind of going somewhere with all of this ...

So @Soupie, you said you wouldn't give up any intelligence to become more compassionate and I wanted to hear more about what you mean by that?

Intelligence is more important than compassion?
Intelligence can be used to be more compassionate?
You have enough compassion already?

or some other meaning(s)?
 
Smcder, I am very impressed that you went to law school.

Well, I lasted for a year ... going to school at night, working 80-90 hour weeks as a computer guy during the day for the state legislature. I burned out and went through a divorce and let law school go. I did pretty well, had some top notch profs and learned a lot. Hypotheticals have become a bad habit.

(I also ran around with a six-foot blonde who wore four inch heels and was one of the first in the state to get her conceal carry permit. She later married a physicist who worked on a nuclear submarine.)

I guess you don't need to know that last part, but it's fun to tell!
 
Is this a question about which is more valuable to an individual? To a culture? To a species? A planet?

What is compassion? Do we assume someone experiencing compassion acts accordingly?

We're working on a defintion of compassion.

Here's what @burntstate has said about compassion:

I don't think you have to give up any general iq smarts to become more compassionate. When you know more about other people, you understand their situation better and can understand why people do what they do.

So IMHO as intellect increases so should compassion.

I know that hatred can work like a capacitator to interupt the flow of compassion which makes evil scientists, evil geniuses and capitalists out of some smart people. But my experience has taught me that the more I increase my awareness of other people's situations the easier it is to forgive them.

And I replied:
"But my experience has taught me that the more I increase my awareness of other people's situations the easier it is to forgive them."

Establishing that general principle undermines your own argument - once you are smart enough to figure that out or accept it on principle, then intelligence doesn't factor into it.

So how much IQ would you give up?

and @burntstate said:

I don't think people live by general principles, or always apply logical thinking to emotional situations. Learning about other people's situations is about life experience, call it a kind of social wisdom that coincides with intellect.

And then I said I think we need a defintion of compassion before we go further (but I do have thoughts about what he's said so far about compassion and what might follow from those statements)
 
Assuming that intelligence and the capacity to experience compassion are mostly innate, they are either gifts from God or Mother Nature. It wouldn't be wise to take matters into our own hands. (But don't tell that to the transhumanists.)
 
This story is not about smarts but what it takes to reach enlightenment. Milarepa, the Buddhist sage, was passing along his final knowledge to his closest disciple when he told him he had one final thing to tell him.

Milarepa pulled up his robe and exposed his buttocks to his disciple. His bottom was hard with calluses. Milarepa asked his disciple if he understood. Enlighten came from sitting long periods of meditation. Not so much from knowledge or smarts.

Yes! Milarepa was a fun guy ... there was a good movie about his life I saw not too long ago.

I often wonder how much these "teaching moments" coincide with the teacher's sense of humor ... in one version of this story, Milarepa asks Gampopa "Do you really understand??" and I envision Milarepa holding his robe up and asking Gampopa that same question a couple more times ...

do you really, really, really understand?
 
Assuming that intelligence and the capacity to experience compassion are mostly innate, they are either gifts from God or Mother Nature. It wouldn't be wise to take matters into our own hands. (But don't tell that to the transhumanists.)

Interesting that you say "the capacity to experience compassion" - that's going some way toward defining compassion ... but it's not a full defintion. What is your definition of compassion? That sounds more like empathy - which to me is neutral, the saint and the sadist are both capable of great empathy.

Can you support the claim that intelligence and the capacity to experience compassion are mostly innate? My reading on intelligence is dated - back in the 90s, but there was an enormous uproar over Herrnstein and Murray's claim that IQ was innate (and varied by "race") Stephen J Gould's book The Mismeasure of Man was maybe the best reply at the time ... from all of that discussion the highest figures I saw for heritability of intelligence was 50% ... even rats that were raised in "enriched" environments seemed to show more intelligence.

Again ... it's a thought experiment ...
 
I dont have an excess of either, so its hard to say what I would really do given a choice, haha.

That might make it easier! ;-0

Seriously, I can use that ...

Let me tweak the hypothetical a bit and say that I accept your premise that you don't have an excess of either one ... (which I don't, I think you are both smart and compassionate) ... but let's say I do ... then I would let you lump them together and then you could have a fair amount of one or the other ... so which would you choose??

(don't tell me you didn't see that one coming!)
 
Well, this thread has taken quite an Adlerian turn! (@Constance might appreciate the linked website.)

Alfred Adler’s Concept of “Social Interest” | Phenomenological Psychology

One of Adler’s key concepts is that of social interest. “Social interest” in German is “Gemeinschaftsgefuhl,” which translates as “community feeling,” as opposed to one’s private interests or concerns. One’s “style of life” is the set of construals and personal narratives one has devised in order to cope with being-in-the-world. If one has social interest then one evidences or enacts a “useful” style of life. If one does not have social interest then one is self-absorbed and is concerned only with one’s self. Such a style of life is “useless.” ...
Like his more popular contemporaries, Freud and Jung, some of Adler's ideas seem to have been right in the money, while others not so much. According to Adler, an individuals level of mental wellness can be measured via their level of social interest. An interesting notion.

Anyhow, in the interest in representing the reductive side of the discussion, I was thinking about the brain and "smartness."

I recently read an article about a 40 year old, employed, father of two who, it turns out, is operating with roughly 75% of his brain mass missing. It's quite astonishing.

Here is a man with a brain 25% the size of the general populace, and he's getting by just fine.

However, that's not to say there are not consequences. His IQ is apparently 75, with the average IQ being 100. Someone considered "gifted" would be in the 130 range.

So some of the man's mental functioning is definitely impacted. (If we assume the lower IQ is due to his brain size, which is not proven.)

Anyhow, we know the brain is remarkable plastic and that important functions/abilities have multiple pathways — brain regions and networks responsible for performing them.

My thought is that via the evolution and adaption paradigm, the core mental functions for survival will be very, very robust and redundant. These mental functions will be very ancient and represented amongst many species of life. Different types of species may have different core mental functions: tree dwelling species, water dwelling species, social species, non-social, predator type, prey type, etc.

Yet for various reasons, there may always be emerging, novel mental functions. However, these newer mental functions will not be as robust and will not have (as many) multiple pathways/brain networks supporting them.

So for example, the ability to recognize and feel disgust for rotten food is a very robust and universal mental and behavioral ability, but the ability to, say, write a (good) novel will be a very specialized and easily-disrupted-via-brain-trauma ability.

I'm treading on thin ice here, but we all grew up with kids or know people who get by "just fine" but definitely have a "quirkiness" to them. Social intelligence (social skills) — at least on the level required in modern human culture — seem to me to be a relatively recent ability. And a very fragile one; one that brain trauma can easily and sadly disrupt. Im not suggesting that such individuals cant enjoy life nor that theyre unintelligent. Just that their ability to socially function at a high level has been compromised.

On the other hand, maybe these mental abilities arent fragile because theyre novel and lack support from multiple pathways... Maybe its simply because some mental abilities require so much of the brain to be performed. Thus, as these abilities require a large portion of the brain, any damage to the brain will surely disrupt these multi-brain region reliant abilities.

What I'm getting at is that while most humans are smart — brilliant really — compared to most other animal species — some humans appear capable, a la Oppenheimer and others, of operating at another level. Do they just have a greater capacity to do things the average Joe can do, or do they have novel abilities the avergae Joe does not? And can some of it (but not all of it) be due to the structure of their physical brain?

A human is a biune system comprised of an ancient, evolving, malleable physical form and the information embodied within that form; continuously flowing through this system is a torrent of physical information which is processed, integrated, and ultimately given meaning, the germ of consciousness.

Where does this quote come from?
 
A human is a biune system comprised of an ancient, evolving, malleable physical form and the information embodied within that form; continuously flowing through this system is a torrent of physical information which is processed, integrated, and ultimately given meaning, the germ of consciousness.

Where does this quote come from?
My personal narrative. My brain. The universe. What-is. The Unus Mundus. Etc. Haha.
 
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