Near-Death Experiences Explained?

[jkoci]

Near-Death Experiences Explained?

 

[Kandinsky]

Until we induce death in people who are wired up to all the latest technology, IMO the answer will be out of our reach. It's a wholly subjective experience that's *probably* resistant to the explanations of hippy gurus or scientists. I like it that way

 

[jkoci]

Until we induce death in people who are wired up to all the latest technology, IMO the answer will be out of our reach.

I wonder if there has been anyone out there that was daring enough to try something like that, like in the movie "Flatliners"

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

Until we induce death in people who are wired up to all the latest technology, IMO the answer will be out of our reach. It's a wholly subjective experience that's *probably* resistant to the explanations of hippy gurus or scientists. I like it that way

This has in fact occurred: read up on the case of Pam Reynolds, whose bodily functions were completely stopped so that an aneurysm deep in her brain could be repaired. Her body, including cardiovascular and brain functions, were being carefully monitored as the operation was performed for 45-60 minutes. She had a typical NDE where she was able to describe what others away from the operating theater were doing, confirming a detachment of consciousness from the physical body.


Art Bell did a lengthy interview with Ms. Reynolds back in February 2001. One thing she said has stuck with me since I heard a rebroadcast of the show. At one point when she was on the 'other side', she said she saw a multitude of light beings surrounding her, all of whom she was connected to in some manner, although she did not quite know how. They were making the most incredible sound/music, in her view, but she perceived that if just one of them was missing the whole sound would be ruined.

For some reason Ms. Reynolds case is not as well publicized as it should be.

 

[Constance]

This one is challenging:

Physical Evidence From Pilot's Near Death Experience - Video | <b><i><a href="http://www.educatinghumanity.com">Educating Humanity</a></i></b>

 

[boomerang]

Interesting link, Constance.

Perhaps one of the best points of evidence we have re NDEs is that, supposedly, those who really have experienced some kind of conscious venture in which they are detached from their physical bodies come away with a permanently changed view of life.

I cannot confirm or deny this. It would be fascinating if true.

 

[Soupie]

This has in fact occurred: read up on the case of Pam Reynolds, whose bodily functions were completely stopped so that an aneurysm deep in her brain could be repaired. Her body, including cardiovascular and brain functions, were being carefully monitored as the operation was performed for 45-60 minutes. She had a typical NDE where she was able to describe what others away from the operating theater were doing, confirming a detachment of consciousness from the physical body.

This one is challenging:

Physical Evidence From Pilot's Near Death Experience - Video

"[N]o one can answer is why they found 54 blood soaked paper towels strewn all in front of the aircraft, with a trail leading to the edge of the tree line as I explained."

If "consciousness" is detached from the physical body, as some claim happens during OBEs and NDEs, how is this disembodied "consciousness" getting sensory information about the physical environment? How is this "consciousness" hearing voices, seeing things, carrying things, etc. without eyes, ears, hands, etc.?

I'm very open to the possibility that something more than hallucinations are going on in some of these cases, but until someone can explain how a disembodied consciousness can carry physical paper towels without a [physical] body or see someone standing beside a table without a [physical] pair of eyes, I'm not convinced there is a disembodied glob of consciousness "floating" around the room.

Near-death experiences? Results of the world's largest medical study of the human mind and consciousness at time of death -- ScienceDaily

The results of a four-year international study of 2060 cardiac arrest cases across 15 hospitals concludes the following. The themes relating to the experience of death appear far broader than what has been understood so far, or what has been described as so called near-death experiences. In some cases of cardiac arrest, memories of visual awareness compatible with so called out-of-body experiences may correspond with actual events. A higher proportion of people may have vivid death experiences, but do not recall them due to the effects of brain injury or sedative drugs on memory circuits. Widely used yet scientifically imprecise terms such as near-death and out-of-body experiences may not be sufficient to describe the actual experience of death. ...

Thirty-nine per cent of patients who survived cardiac arrest and were able to undergo structured interviews described a perception of awareness, but interestingly did not have any explicit recall of events.

"This suggests more people may have mental activity initially but then lose their memories after recovery, either due to the effects of brain injury or sedative drugs on memory recall," explained Dr Parnia, who was an Honorary Research Fellow at the University of Southampton when he started the AWARE study.

Among those who reported a perception of awareness and completed further interviews, 46 per cent experienced a broad range of mental recollections in relation to death that were not compatible with the commonly used term of NDE's. These included fearful and persecutory experiences. Only 9 per cent had experiences compatible with NDEs and 2 per cent exhibited full awareness compatible with OBE's with explicit recall of 'seeing' and 'hearing' events. ...

People can have mental activity, but not recall it due to brain injury or the effects of drugs on the brain... So they can have mental activity without the brain, but memory of those experiences is affected by the brain? If those mental events happen without the brain, how would they ever--in any case--become physical memories in the brain? That is, if someone were to have a true, paranormal OBE wherein consciousness existed apart from the body-brain, how could this experience be recalled by the brain after the fact, as some reports claim?

You can't have an experience without the brain, and then afterword have the brain recall the experience... You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the brain is not involved or it is involved.

Again, I'm open to the idea that something more than hallucinations are occurring, but recalled consciousness experiences without a sensory/nervous system and brain doesn't add up imo.

 

[smcder]

If "consciousness" is detached from the physical body, as some claim happens during OBEs and NDEs, how is this disembodied "consciousness" getting sensory information about the physical environment? How is this "consciousness" hearing voices, seeing things, carrying things, etc. without eyes, ears, hands, etc.?

I'm very open to the possibility that something more than hallucinations are going on in some of these cases, but until someone can explain how a disembodied consciousness can carry physical paper towels without a [physical] body or see someone standing beside a table without a [physical] pair of eyes, I'm not convinced there is a disembodied glob of consciousness "floating" around the room.


People can have mental activity, but not recall it due to brain injury or the effects of drugs on the brain... So they can have mental activity without the brain, but memory of those experiences is affected by the brain? If those mental events happen without the brain, how would they ever--in any case--become physical memories in the brain? That is, if someone were to have a true, paranormal OBE wherein consciousness existed apart from the body-brain, how could this experience be recalled by the brain after the fact, as some reports claim?

You can't have an experience without the brain, and then afterword have the brain recall the experience... You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the brain is not involved or it is involved.

Again, I'm open to the idea that something more than hallucinations are occurring, but recalled consciousness experiences without a sensory/nervous system and brain doesn't add up imo.

"I'm not convinced there is a disembodied glob of consciousness "floating" around the room" this is still a physical metaphor ... IF it's not physical, it won't be a glob and it won't float in space. It won't be a field either or an "emergence". If if if ...

Maybe we are failing on imagination rather than intelligence.

And until we have causation rather than correlation, i don't think we can all afford to dig our heels into an either/or stance ... my data can be backed up on my PC and the cloud ... Then I wipe my PC and restore it ... or download new data or ...

Crude and dissatisfying ... and it doesn't address all of your questions about sensory data ... but we can relate to the computer metaphor for now until someone with more imagination comes along.

The physicalist position is well covered and so until we get an answer I'm interested in other options - paradigm shifts come from the minority report if not the fringe and even if they fail, they often change the course of the mainstream.

 

[manxman]

try this, i found this out by accident.

I had tired eyes a while back, i rubbed them with finger and thumb at same time, i pressed quite hard, to the point of pleasure [relaxation] and pain together.

I Stopped rubbing but kept the pressure on the top of each eyeball, then something strange occured.

All i could see was pitch black, and then with the pressure on my eyeballs, a white blob forms, it quickly becomes intense, as the white shrinks to an intense pinhead of whitelight, its a very pleasant sensation, and quite relaxing, ive just done it now, do it lying down, otherwise you will get very dizzy.

Thats the first half, wait until the pinpoint forms at its most intense, then open your eyes looking directly looking at the ceiling, you will see a ghost a black swirl, i promise you, you see an atypical black spirit.

If you move your eyes the black transparent blob will move with them.

Then it will dissipate, right infront of your eyes litirally.

 

[Randall]

This one is challenging:

Physical Evidence From Pilot's Near Death Experience - Video | <b><i><a href="http://www.educatinghumanity.com">Educating Humanity</a></i></b>

In the article, there's no references to verify that the accident even happened. So it's yet another unsubstantiated tale that may have no foundation in reality. But even if there was such a crash, and the victim is telling the truth as he recalls it, there is still the likely possibility that someone found the plane after the crash and attempted some kind of first aid with paper towels to stop the bleeding, and because the victim wasn't dead ( not even brain injured ), the unconscious sensory perceptions of the first responders became interpreted as dream imagery. So even if there is a genuine incident here, there's not necessarily any real mystery.

 

[Burnt State]

try this, i found this out by accident.

I had tired eyes a while back, i rubbed them with finger and thumb at same time, i pressed quite hard, to the point of pleasure [relaxation] and pain together.

I Stopped rubbing but kept the pressure on the top of each eyeball, then something strange occured.

All i could see was pitch black, and then with the pressure on my eyeballs, a white blob forms, it quickly becomes intense, as the white shrinks to an intense pinhead of whitelight, its a very pleasant sensation, and quite relaxing, ive just done it now, do it lying down, otherwise you will get very dizzy.

Thats the first half, wait until the pinpoint forms at its most intense, then open your eyes looking directly looking at the ceiling, you will see a ghost a black swirl, i promise you, you see an atypical black spirit.

If you move your eyes the black transparent blob will move with them.

Then it will dissipate, right infront of your eyes litirally.

You should consider reading up on phosphenes & entoptic phenomenon. Their relationship to hallucinations speak to a number of different paranormal phenomenon: http://www.oubliette.org.uk/Three.html

 

[manxman]

Interesting that, my phosphene's merge into one central bright white light, the longer i press the more intense, ive just done it, and im typing thru a 'mist' think un-tuned in tv type static mist.

JUst realised i press in from the top toward my nose, thats why i get the 2 white blurs merge in the middle above my nose.

 

[smcder]

Interesting that, my phosphene's merge into one central bright white light, the longer i press the more intense, ive just done it, and im typing thru a 'mist' think un-tuned in tv type static mist.

JUst realised i press in from the top toward my nose, thats why i get the 2 white blurs merge in the middle above my nose.

try this, i found this out by accident.

I had tired eyes a while back, i rubbed them with finger and thumb at same time, i pressed quite hard, to the point of pleasure [relaxation] and pain together.

I Stopped rubbing but kept the pressure on the top of each eyeball, then something strange occured.

All i could see was pitch black, and then with the pressure on my eyeballs, a white blob forms, it quickly becomes intense, as the white shrinks to an intense pinhead of whitelight, its a very pleasant sensation, and quite relaxing, ive just done it now, do it lying down, otherwise you will get very dizzy.

Thats the first half, wait until the pinpoint forms at its most intense, then open your eyes looking directly looking at the ceiling, you will see a ghost a black swirl, i promise you, you see an atypical black spirit.

If you move your eyes the black transparent blob will move with them.

Then it will dissipate, right infront of your eyes litirally.

Trepanation - an alternative medicine approach towards mental well being

"Trepanation is the practice of making a hole in the skull in order to improve the brain pulsations and hence the overall well being."

TREPAN.COM | ITAG: INTERNATIONAL TREPANATION ADVOCACY GROUP

"Skull trepanation has usually been considered a strange oddity by archeologists, anthropologists and neuroscientists. With nearly complete unanimity those professions consider trepanation to be some inexplicably superstitious and outdated practice for which there is no justification in the modern world. In short they believe that skull trepanation has no scientific basis."

An illustrated history of trepanation – Neurophilosophy

"Trepanation, or trephination

(both derived from the Greek word trypanon, meaning “to bore”)

is perhaps the oldest form of neurosurgery. The procedure, which is called a craniotomy in medical terminology, involves the removal of a piece of bone from the skull, and it has been performed since prehistoric times. The oldest trepanned skull, found at a neolithic burial site of Ensisheim in France, is more than 7,000 years old, and trepanation was practised by the Ancient Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Romans, Greeks and the early Mesoamerican civilizations. The procedure is still performed today, for both medical and non-medical reasons."

 

[manxman]

Not quite getting the connection Steve.

 

[Soupie]

"I'm not convinced there is a disembodied glob of consciousness "floating" around the room" this is still a physical metaphor ... IF it's not physical, it won't be a glob and it won't float in space. It won't be a field either or an "emergence". If if if ...

Maybe we are failing on imagination rather than intelligence.

All of the OBE reports I've read describe a pov not unlike the typical pov experienced by a human. This indicates to me that the disembodied consciousness is in a fixed location in time and space. Yes, still physical concepts, but that's what's reported. A pov typically from above (floating in the air) in a corner (fixed location) of the room. And as far as know, time seems to be experienced the same as well.

That's a pretty specific—and not incredibly unusual—pov. Obviously being up high looking down on one's body is unusual, haha, but pretty much everything else is normal. Although, some describe everything being more vivid as well.

Compared to states of consciousness reported under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, that's pretty mundane.

So we should certainly use our imaginations in an attempt to conceptualize a non-phsycial, disembodied conscious self, but when it comes to OBE reports, the experience doesn't seem to be too great a departure from typical conscious states.

I'd be interested to hear if there have ever been reports of unusual pov. I've looked in vain for anything regarding 3rd person pov with no luck.

 

[Burnt State]

Not quite getting the connection Steve.

He's obviously suggesting you need holes in your head for some unfathomable reason.

 

[smcder]

Not quite getting the connection Steve.

Keep rubbing Manxie!

 

[smcder]

All of the OBE reports I've read describe a pov not unlike the typical pov experienced by a human. This indicates to me that the disembodied consciousness is in a fixed location in time and space. Yes, still physical concepts, but that's what's reported. A pov typically from above (floating in the air) in a corner (fixed location) of the room. And as far as know, time seems to be experienced the same as well.

That's a pretty specific—and not incredibly unusual—pov. Obviously being up high looking down on one's body is unusual, haha, but pretty much everything else is normal. Although, some describe everything being more vivid as well.

Compared to states of consciousness reported under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, that's pretty mundane.

So we should certainly use our imaginations in an attempt to conceptualize a non-phsycial, disembodied conscious self, but when it comes to OBE reports, the experience doesn't seem to be too great a departure from typical conscious states.

I'd be interested to hear if there have ever been reports of unusual pov. I've looked in vain for anything regarding 3rd person pov with no luck.

What do you mean by third person POV?

 

[smcder]

He's obviously suggesting you need holes in your head for some unfathomable reason.

Not so, Roberto!

 

[smcder]

All of the OBE reports I've read describe a pov not unlike the typical pov experienced by a human. This indicates to me that the disembodied consciousness is in a fixed location in time and space. Yes, still physical concepts, but that's what's reported. A pov typically from above (floating in the air) in a corner (fixed location) of the room. And as far as know, time seems to be experienced the same as well.

That's a pretty specific—and not incredibly unusual—pov. Obviously being up high looking down on one's body is unusual, haha, but pretty much everything else is normal. Although, some describe everything being more vivid as well.

Compared to states of consciousness reported under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, that's pretty mundane.

So we should certainly use our imaginations in an attempt to conceptualize a non-phsycial, disembodied conscious self, but when it comes to OBE reports, the experience doesn't seem to be too great a departure from typical conscious states.

I'd be interested to hear if there have ever been reports of unusual pov. I've looked in vain for anything regarding 3rd person pov with no luck.

"Compared to states of consciousness reported under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, that's pretty mundane."

Newsweek Cover Story or Internet Posting About Drugs? A Quiz