John F. Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy

[ViperPilot]

Quoted from an earlier letter I wrote to a friend:

I remember the day President Kennedy was murdered and how I heard about it. I had just turned 16 years old the month before, and was walking across the parking lot of Abilene High School in Abilene, Texas on my way to lunch. A friend of mine approached me and said that the President had been shot. Several days later, I remember seeing a photograph in the local newspaper. It was taken in Dallas, Texas, and featured a police detective holding a WWII Italian 6.5mm Carcano carbine over his head. The rifle had a sling attached, and a small, low powered scope mounted to its receiver. The caption on the photograph read something to the effect: “The Rifle That Killed Kennedy”. Being a young Texan of the time, I was very much into hunting, and prided myself on my knowledge of a wide range of firearms, military and civilian. I knew that the Carcano carbine was a very low quality, mass produced bolt actioned infantry weapon, with a very low standard of form, fit and function. I remember thinking to myself: “There’s no way anyone could make three aimed, accurate shots with that rifle, hit a moving, mellon sized target at that distance, in six seconds or so. It just can’t be done. Someone is lying to us about this.” I thought that then, and I think that now, fifty years later.

I’ve followed this crime closely for all these years. In my opinion, it is the defining post WWII event of our nation. This act set our nation in motion along the path to empire, and the demise of our Constitutional Democracy. Our only hope for recovery is through the efforts of historians and researchers to regain our national identity by understanding this seminal event. And, to prevent such a thing from happening again.

 

[ViperPilot]

Not yet, but you might find this interview interesting: http://on.aol.com/video/an-in-depth-look-at-jfk--the-smoking-gun-518033750

Thanks, Ufology!

 

[Sentry]

I've looked around a bit for material on JFK: The Smoking Gun and the theories by Colin McLaren. I'll watch the program if I get the chance, but I think I've found the core claims behind it. Some of the reviews are positive citing McLaren's experience as a detective, but others are negative. Here's a negative one from a well-informed critic:
Stuffing up the mother of all JFK conspiracy theories

There's also McLaren's book by the same title, should anyone wish to investigate his theories further:

 

[ViperPilot]

Viper says:



You have the timing wrong and there were only 2 "accurate" shots not 3 (and only one of those actually hit the head--the other hit Kennedy in the back). Both the Warren Commission and CBS hired multiple shooters who duplicated the feat with ease and with the very gun Oswald used and well under the proposed time. The same weapon was used by the Italian NATO shooting team at the time for competition (so good enough for a national shooting team even if not good enough for you).

I'm happy to expand upon this if it might be helpful.

Lance

At the time, 1963, the current spiel was that there were three accurate shots.

 

[ViperPilot]

@Viper,

Ok, so then I'm curious why, after the realization that virtually every assumption you made in 1963 was wrong, you say that you still believe that someone was lying.

Lance

In my estimation, to get 3 rounds off from the Carcano carbine, in six seconds, while attempting to accurately aim through a small reticle scope is impossible to do. Much less strike a target consistently, moving or not. I have fired many bolt action rifle, including the Carcano. Accurate rapid fire with a quality bolt action weapon, much less one like the Carcano is extremely difficult. I'm not trying to convince anyone of the validity of my opinions, just that they are mine. And as such, they're not certified by any person or group as to their validity. And, they're worth what you've paid for them. And, not to put too fine a point on it, I don't believe I have the timing wrong.

 

[captainrecovery]

There was a tv program which aired recently in Canada from the CBC series, The Passionate Eye", which used digitized, restored hi res versions of the Zapruder film and several others in an attempt to uncover new clues. They made a very convincing case that LHO fired 3 shots from the Texas School Book Depository window. They postulated that the first shot came earlier than the last two and actually struck a traffic light. This extends the amount of time LHO had to get off the shots and meshed nicely with eyewitness testimony and the film restored even showed possible damage to the traffic light. The grouping of shell casings was duplicated in a re-enactment they did. After watching the program I believe he was the only shooter. Whether or not he acted alone is another story. So many wanted him dead, the CIA, the mob, LBJ, Federal Reserve henchmen, MJ-12, Castro, even Joltin' Joe Dimaggio - TAKE YOUR PICK. Google JFK: The Lost Bullet, I believe it's available on line.

 

[Sentry]

Thanks, I'll check it out!

 

[ViperPilot]

Viper, I understand that you are just applying your own experience to the event. That's fine. Lots of folks offer their homespun common sense and it is often helpful. But it isn't always right.

I suppose this the best way to respond is to show you a clip that demonstrates folks doing it exactly what you say is impossible:

CBS hired 11 riflemen. All used the telescopic sight (we don't know if Oswald used the sight or not). One of the riflemen was able to score 2 hits in UNDER 5 seconds. Another scored 3 hits in 5.2 seconds.

When the HSCA hired riflemen for their tests, one of them got off all 3 shots in UNDER 5 seconds with 3 hits.

Oswald had (under the actual timing of the event) approx. 8.4 seconds.

Thanks,

Lance

I'll check it out!

Bob

 

[ViperPilot]

Hmmmmmmm........

From Michael T Griffith, Weak Points in the lone Gunman Theory...

1. THE ALLEGED SHOOTING FEAT

No rifleman has ever duplicated the shooting feat attributed to Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged single assassin. There are various lone-gunman shooting scenarios floating around, but they all theorize that one gunman scored two hits out of three shots in 6 to 9 seconds while firing at a moving target from 60 feet up using a Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action rifle—on the first and only attempt. In 1967 CBS News conducted a fairly realistic simulation involving eleven expert riflemen firing at a moving target sled from a 60-foot tower using a Carcano rifle (but not the alleged murder weapon itself).Not oneof those expert riflemen scored two hits on his first attempt, and seven of them failed to do so on any attempt, even though they fired under easier conditions than those in which Oswald would have fired and even though they were allowed to fire nine practice rounds prior to the test.

The WC's own rifle tests were equally revealing: The commission hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters who participated in that test fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. So how did they do? They missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and 2 out of 3 times when they used the iron sights. In other words, they missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times. Several of their misses were far apart on the boards. Some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary—yes, stationary—target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.

Nearly all lone-gunman theorists argue that Oswald would have had as much as 9 or even 10 seconds, not just 6 seconds. However, in order to give their single shooter that much time, these WC supporters must assume he completely missed, not only Kennedy, but the entire huge presidential limousine, with his first and closest shot, that is, that he missed such a gigantic target from 60 feet up and from less than 140 feet away. Even the WC balked at the idea that its lone gunman would have missed so badly with his first and closest shot. Said the Commission,

On the other hand, the greatest cause for doubt that the first shot missed is the improbability that the same marksman who twice hit a moving target would besoinaccurate on the first and closest of his shots as to miss completely, not only the target, but the large automobile. (Warren Commission Report, p. 111)

Of course, the single-assassin shooting scenario must assume that the supposed lone gunman completely missed the limousine with one of his alleged three shots. It's hard to imagine how even a mediocre marksman like Oswald could have missed such a large target, even from 270-300 feet away, much less from 140 feet away.

 

[Polterwurst]

The full program makes quite a convincing case.

Well, don't they all.

It's like you're in one universe, where the conspiracy was happening, when you watch a pro-conspiracy programme/read a pro-conspiracy book and in a closely related parallel universe, where there was definitely only one madman with a gun, when you watch the "no conspiracy" documentaries / read the books. I feel like Schrodinger's cat.

Of course, yours would be a third universe, Ufology. The "sh*t happens" one.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Lance, just curious: What do you think of the Congressional committee that concluded the murder of JFK was due to a conspiracy?

United States House Select Committee on Assassinations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[captainrecovery]

In JFK: The Missing Bullet you have a possible "complete" explanation of the known facts. The 6 to 9 seconds time frame depends entirely on drawing the timeline from the Zapruder film which they show actually stopped and restarted. LHO had closer to 12 seconds by eyewitness testimony and other films. JFK: TMB explains how the deflected bullet could have hit the curb and caused the witness's bloody face and no "grassy knoll" theory for the head shot can account for where a bullet shot from there could have ended up without hitting Jackie or the limo.

The biggest mistake Viper and others make is making the Zapruder film their definitive (and only) record of events from which they launch theories.

 

[captainrecovery]

Gene, The Congressional Committee made that statement based entirely on circumstantial evidence with no physical proof. Like what Stanton Friedman calls, "Investigation by proclamation".

 

[Sentry]

Here's an interesting essay on the shots from an unconventional source:
Penn & Teller | TELLERS ESSAYS

Even if the shots were difficult, they were not at all impossible. The multiple shooter scenario is far less likely.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Gene, The Congressional Committee made that statement based entirely on circumstantial evidence with no physical proof. Like what Stanton Friedman calls, "Investigation by proclamation".

That's not what I read.

 

[boomerang]

I always think of the Kennedy assassination in terms of plurals, keeping in mind that Oswald was conveniently offed by someone with no apparent motive, and that Bobby Kennedy didn't live to see presidential election day. As for events in and after Dallas, no one factor demands suspension of disbelief. But coincidences add up in ways that seem improbable. One I have already cited above. Others are Oswald's apparent connection to alphabet agencies, the prompt sanitation of the presidential limo, Ruby's disappearance down a black hole after shooting Oswald, and the list seems to go on.

A word about LBJ--The few people I have talked to who had dealings with (in one case worked under) him seemed to regard him as capable of almost anything. This is not unique to powerful men. But my impression from talking to these people was that any spot between LBJ and something he personally wanted was a dangerous place to be. Again, hardly proof of anything. But the overall picture is interesting to say the least.

 

[trainedobserver]

It was a UFO hit. Everybody knows that. Sheesh.

Here is the irrefutable, undeniable, and otherwise inarguable evidence: a photograph.

 

[Kieran]

Thanks Curt! I was just about to start one up myself.

So I hope that I cleared up (in the previous thread) a couple of the howlers that get repeated over and over:

1. Oswald is documented as a good shot.
2. The cheap rifle he bought was accurate and capable of the shots that killed the President and wounded the Governor.

So I'm pulling a few of the questions from the other thread:

===

Enzo mentions that in 1978 the HSCA postulated that there was a conspiracy.

This is true. At the last minute some highly dubious audio evidence along with some dubious science convinced the committee that extra shots could be heard in an audio tape from a policeman's stuck-open mic. This evidence is no longer considered reliable and has been compellingly debunked. Note that the HSCA otherwise debunked virtually all of the conspiracy claims we will probably discuss here (confirming the so-called magic bullet, etc).

===

I'll add on as I have time.


Lance

Oswald was assassinated, by a nightclub owner with mob connections, means nothing of course. He liked Kennedy so much he felt he needed to get some payback?

Even if Oswald pulled off a lucky shot, that day. And, its a possibility. I doubt he was alone gunman.. He likely had help that day and this was the reason Oswald was taken out of the picture.

I think the mob were behind it, but open to government involvement too in the Kennedy killing.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Yes, I can't refute the "and then magic happened " way that conspiracists build their theories...I think folks just WANT these theories to be real...the idea seems to offer some sort of comfort, perhaps allowing one to believe that he is privy to some great secret.

Tell that to the "magic bullet."

 

[Sentry]

Oh boy…