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James Carrion and The Rosetta Deception

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Gene Steinberg

Gene Steinberg

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James Carrion is a former Director of MUFON, and he is author of a new book about what is called "The Greatest Deception in History."

"The Rosetta Deception" of a great piece of detective work explaining how "a master group of magicians" found ways to, among other things, unearth Soviet spies in the U.S. But it doesn't stop there. What about the early UFO cases, such as the Ghost Rockets, and were they real events, or the products of a carefully crafted program of deception and disinformation?

And do such activities continue to the present day?

I found this a fascinating book to read — and certainly one that requires careful study. We have covered the impact of intelligence activities in the first years after World War II before, in connection with the UFO mystery, so I think you'll find lots to ask about here.

We will be recording this interview the evening of Thursday, July 17.
 
Gene... How did you know I'm turning 45 in two weeks?!?

This has everything I love... Post WWII intrigue and suspense, conspiracy theories... the only thing missing now is the cake and candles!
 
Sounds like very decent guest unfortunately I am NOT going to have time to familiarize myself with the book in time to ask a relevant question, although the ghost rockets angle might inspire me


Didn't Svalbald/Spitsbergen (seed bank island) play a part in this mythology ? Sort of the Scandinavian version of Roswell.
 
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My point being is that I've heard that security @ the island is state-of-tthe-art and would make the goldless Fort Knox look like minimum security.

this security seems a little over the top even for a place where the world seeds are stored in case of a global catastrophe. I wonder if security at the other global seed banks are As tight
 
Mr. Carrion, could you please talk about your investigation into the Skinwalker Ranch and how much (if any) influence your conclusions from that investigation influenced The Rosetta Deception?
 
Mr. Carrion,

Do you think the UFO mystery is largely the creation of the military and the security agencies? Absent deliberate deception, does any evidence remain that points to extraterrestrial visitation?
 
I have a couple of questions - I might add to them as I think of them.

Mr. Carrion; Tell us how you initially became a history enthusiast and what is it about this period in history that draws you?

Who were your role models from that period in history, who or what personality from that era most influenced you the most from this period in history?

Tell us about your thoughts on Roswell - I'm on the fence because I believe the UFO crash could have been a cover-up of a real crash of a real flying wedge/wing the military was tested that was based off of technology taken from Germany during Operation Paperclip... or it was really an alien spacecraft. Which theory do you subscribe to?

And just for fun... what's your favorite movie that encapsulates this era for you? Cause what I've read of your book reads like A supernatural Film Noir thriller.
 
1) Why do you think a postwar psychological campaign of ghost rockets would extend and continue long after the cold war had run its course?

2) My compliments on your website that has an abundance of great newspaper articles reporting on the rockets; however, have you done any interviews with the many living witnesses of the ghost rockets? And if so do you believe they are seeing physical crafts land and sink into lakes?

3) Have you made contact with UFOSweden to get access to their own many reports and gov't files pertaining to witness accounts of structured craft and rockets landing in lakes, and crashing without debris that continue to this day? What do you think of their findings and their upcoming documentary on Ghost Rockets?

4) What are your thoughts on Micah Hanks' Ghost Rockets book?
 
The powers that be never let a good disaster go to waste. So if we take the possibility that craft from elsewhere can come and go as they please without their authority. Then I'm sure they would use it as a smoke screen when they can to serve their best interests. But this does not mean that all sightings are bogus! To assume otherwise is to employ faulty logic.
 
I have no problem with the idea that military operations may be responsible for some ghost rocket reports, UFO reports, and seemingly strange happenings. I also don't have a problem with the idea that denial and disinformation play a part in managing the intelligence surrounding such operations. However Carrion seems to be using the word "evidence" a little loosely. Does he actually have any verifiable evidence that clearly identifies any military operation in which deception combined with our own technology was used specifically for the purpose of making people think that what they were seeing was a real alien craft?

Correct me if my assumption is that the answer to the question above is is "No".
Or does he link tenuously related events, people, and places, and then jump to his own conclusion by invoking his "Rosetta Stone" theory? Correct me if the answer to that question doesn't seem to be "Yes".

I also take exception to his portrayal of ufology and ufologists in general, but do I want to get banned again for picking out the individual quotes from the audio and giving specific reasons? With all the agreeing with Carrion I heard coming from the hosts, I'm not really sure I want to waste my time making the effort. I'll just include this one for now:

2:16:53 | Carrion: "I have to say something that I you know I think that um, um, a lot of folks in ufology, may not like to hear, and that is, you know I think the bottom line is there there folks that are in the field that call themselves ufologists, call themselves researchers, investigative journalists, whatever they want to call themselves. It doesn't really matter, but when their modus operandi is to per is to perpetuate the mystery instead of solving it, we have a big issue. We have a big problem, because the mystery will never get resolved. As long as these people are out there um, hawking their latest theories or the latest controversy, for controversy's sake, or their latest witness, or their latest you know led investigation, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't really matter, but if you don't have a sincere interest in truth; you're simply interested in making the rounds of the UFO talk circuit and have your group ..."

2:17:49 | Chris ( interjects ): "Mystery Mongering."

2:17:51 | Carrion: Exactly. You're, you're, you're part of the problem not part of the solution.

2:18:00 | Chris : Well do you have a short list for us, uh, any uh particular individuals you'd like to uh single out?

2:17:51 | Carrion: Yes my short list is just pick any UFO conference out there and grab the the speakers that are there, and that's my short list.
​
WOW! So basically anyone who has any public notoriety in the field is part of the problem ( except for him of course I presume ). If this is his short list I'd hate to hear who's on his long list. That attitude, as well intentioned as it may be with respect to aspiring toward the truth, is the most presumptuous evaluation of people's personal motivations for becoming involved in ufology that I have ever heard. It tars virtually the entire ufology community with the same broad brush and by extension makes it sound like anyone who would attend a UFO conference is just a gullible tourist sucked in by opportunists who prey on the weak minded.

I'll conclude this post by saying that as far as I'm concerned, Carrion's commentary could be considered it's own form of disinformation. I won't risk getting banned again by saying any more, other than suffice it to say, there are a few more choice comments that I'm sure the more discerning listeners could pick out if they were so inclined.
 
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ufology said:
I have no problem with the idea that military operations may be responsible for some ghost rocket reports, UFO reports, and seemingly strange happenings. I also don't have a problem with the idea that denial and disinformation play a part in managing the intelligence surrounding such operations. However Carrion seems to be using the word "evidence" a little loosely. Does he actually have any verifiable evidence that clearly identifies any military operation in which deception combined with our own technology was used specifically for the purpose of making people think that what they were seeing was a real alien craft?

Correct me if my assumption is that the answer to the question above is is "No".
Or does he link tenuously related events, people, and places, and then jump to his own conclusion by invoking his "Rosetta Stone" theory? Correct me if the answer to that question doesn't seem to be "Yes".

I also take exception to his portrayal of ufology and ufologists in general, but do I want to get banned again for picking out the individual quotes from the audio and giving specific reasons? With all the agreeing with Carrion I heard coming from the hosts, I'm not really sure I want to waste my time making the effort. I'll just include this one for now:

2:16:53 | Carrion: "I have to say something that I you know I think that um, um, a lot of folks in ufology, may not like to hear, and that is, you know I think the bottom line is there there folks that are in the field that call themselves ufologists, call themselves researchers, investigative journalists, whatever they want to call themselves. It doesn't really matter, but when their modus operandi is to per is to perpetuate the mystery instead of solving it, we have a big issue. We have a big problem, because the mystery will never get resolved. As long as these people are out there um, hawking their latest theories or the latest controversy, for controversy's sake, or their latest witness, or their latest you know led investigation, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't really matter, but if you don't have a sincere interest in truth; you're simply interested in making the rounds of the UFO talk circuit and have your group ..."

2:17:49 | Chris ( interjects ): "Mystery Mongering."

2:17:51 | Carrion: Exactly. You're, you're, you're part of the problem not part of the solution.

2:18:00 | Chris : Well do you have a short list for us, uh, any uh particular individuals you'd like to uh single out?

2:17:51 | Carrion: Yes my short list is just pick any UFO conference out there and grab the the speakers that are there, and that's my short list.
​
WOW! So basically anyone who has any public notoriety in the field is part of the problem ( except for him of course I presume ). If this is his short list I'd hate to hear who's on his long list. That attitude, as well intentioned as it may be with respect to aspiring toward the truth, is the most presumptuous evaluation of people's personal motivations for becoming involved in ufology that I have ever heard. It tars virtually the entire ufology community with the same broad brush and by extension makes it sound like anyone who would attend a UFO conference is just a gullible tourist sucked in by opportunists who prey on the weak minded.

I'll conclude this post by saying that as far as I'm concerned, Carrion's commentary could be considered it's own form of disinformation. I won't risk getting banned again by saying any more, other than suffice it to say, there a few more choice comments that I'm sure the more discerning listeners could pick out if they were so inclined.
Click to expand...
If saying what you've said is bannable, ban me to!
 
I don't see anything in Ufology's comments that are subject to ban. Of course, we once had a co-host who, when a guest on the show mentioned a claim that he was a disinformation agent, he promptly left the show for the rest of the episode. But that was then.
 
Gene Steinberg said:
I don't see anything in Ufology's comments that are subject to ban ...
Click to expand...
Maybe I should run them by you one at a time just to be on the safe side :D :

Let's have a look at this one that touches on the famous Kenneth Arnold Sighting:

01:50:10 | Carrion: "To me it's just too convenient that we have ah, you know Stalin super interested in this new futuristic weapon that skipped across the atmosphere like a stone skips across water and all of a sudden we have stories of, of a flying saucer that exhibits similar behavior. So I think there's the tie-in to the deception."
​
If we back the show up a little bit, the new "futuristic weapon" Carrion refers to that ties UFOs into his deception theory is the Amerika Bomber:

01:48: | Carrion: "If you read my book you'll find a very interesting story about an Austrian Scientist by the name of Eugene Sanger, and what this gentleman did is, he was working on behalf of the Germans during the war. He had developed this concept for what he called the America Bomber, and what this craft was supposed to do was to launch off a sled track that was a couple miles in length. It would basically zoom into the atmosphere and then when it came down, back down on a ballistic re-entry, it would bounce off the atmosphere again and have a further a forward a motion and it it would keep having this bounce effect until it reached its destination which he envisioned was going to be the United States where he was going to drop a a a basically was a dirty bomb.​

So now, let's do as Carrion suggests that we ufologists should do more of, and do a little fact checking:

The Wikipedia article on the America Bomber describes it as a program with several competing designs and: "The most promising proposals were based on conventional principles of aircraft design, and would have yielded aircraft very similar in configuration and capability to the Allied heavy bombers of the day. Many of the developed designs, themselves first submitted during 1943 suggested tricycle landing gear for their undercarriage, a relatively new feature for large German military aircraft designs of that era."

What Carrion seems to be talking about is Eugen Sänger's proposal for the Amerika Bomber project called the Silverbird ( Silbervogel ). According to the article on Sänger , "Sänger agreed to lead a rocket development team in the Lüneburger Heide region in 1936. He gradually conceived a rocket-powered sled that would launch a bomber with its own rocket engines that would climb to the fringe of space and then skip along the upper atmosphere – not actually entering orbit, but able to cover vast distances in a series of sub-orbital hops."

This is quite fascinating, but according to the article: "By 1942, the Reich Air Ministry canceled this project along with other more ambitious and theoretical designs in favour of concentrating on proven technologies." So the craft never made it off the drawing board. Of equal importance is the fact that sub-orbital skips off the upper atmosphere would take place at much higher altitudes than the objects Arnold reported. Additionally according to the article on the Silbervogel, "Postwar analysis of the Silbervogel design involving a mathematical control analysis unearthed a computational error and it turned out that the heat flow during the initial re-entry would have been far higher than originally calculated by Sänger and Bredt; if the Silbervogel had been constructed according to their flawed calculations the craft would have been destroyed during re-entry."

So what Carrion has done is take an obscure historical reference to a flawed aircraft design that was never produced and used it as the lynch-pin for his deception theory by making a huge scientifically flawed connection between a non-existent space plane and the Kenneth Arnold sighting. Shall I continue?
 
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