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Dr. John Alexander — September 14, 2014

Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing. Gravity is a really weak force, it only has significance when it increases, that's how stars can get so big (In essence) My thoughts are that collective unconsciousness is powerful and can perhaps travel distances as in a dimension between living things - intelligence may provide us with the ability to consciously act on collective unconscious information, the similarities of Pyramid building on distant continents in ancient times may be one example, similar descriptions of ET's in more recent times may be another. Collective unconsciousness may be stronger than collective consciousness because of the interference of external stimuli, meditation anyone?
 
And I wouldn't be so hasty to 'poo poo' the concept of Military / Intelligence interest or influence from such theories, hence the relationship with my posts to this thread on Col Alexander. MK Ultra / Remote viewing, heck think about the U.S early significant space flights, religion featured heavily - 'God speed John Glenn', The reading from the book of Genesis by Astronauts when orbiting the moon etc etc
 
Information theory is currently being applied to many other domains and disciplines in which it might or might not be appropriate or adequate. The interdisciplinary field of consciousness studies is one such field, which is why we have been discussing information theory on and off for months in the C&P thread. Tononi's IIT theory is a recent example that has received some attention in consciousness studies but not much response yet, which is why I thought you might be interested in the thread and help us to interpret Tononi's system. But from this post and your subsequent one (re the Panksepp paper), it now seems to me that you might not be interested in the questions and issues discussed in that thread.
Actually I'm not sure I am or not, I guess I am if I'm replying here.

I'm not sure about what the underlying point is.
Unfortunately, citing 'stimulus-response' theory (originating in mid-20th C. Behaviorism) doesn't answer the question [beyond conditioning of certain responses in rats and dogs] 'what is the stimulus' [or stimuli] in nature to a given behavior in a natural organism and 'what is the organism's response'? Or the question 'what is the meaning of that response?' in terms of the evolution of species {and of consciousness}. Those are the questions Panksepp and his colleagues in the biological sciences (including neuroscience) attempt to find answers for. We all want to understand nature, and most of us understand that nature, life, consciousness, and mind require more than mathematics to account for them.
I guess that depends on if you're a determinist or not, and I'm kind of on the fence with that one. My point was that not all living systems require assignment of meaning to respond to stimuli, and in fact our assignment of meaning might be secondary at best or an illusion at worst.

At any rate, evolution doesn't require it, or more living systems than just us and a few others in our planet would need it.

And I guess "most of us" doesn't include me, my sense is that we can use math to describe the known physical universe to several significant digits of accuracy, why not consciousness too? By definition it exists in the physical universe.

Unless, of course, you're speaking of dualism, in which case I guess the conversation is at an end.

Half (or maybe more) of the quantum physicists in the world recognize non-locality and also universal entanglement of quantum information operating in nature and mind. We'll have to wait and see how it all shakes out in another hundred years of theory and experiment.
Oh, the brain is a QM system all right, as is every atom in the universe.

Whether this has anything to do with consciousness or not, I seriously doubt. The question is actually being proposed and experimented: can we describe a brain using newtonian mechanics, simulate it, and does it become conscious?

My sense is QM is not required to describe how the brain/mind system works at all. There's no QM-relevant interaction that modifies behaviour -- except maybe at the small-scale neurotransmitter uptake, maybe.

It's like trying to take relativity into account in the brain. Sure, it's a relativistic system too, it just doesn't matter in any frame of reference that is really meaningful.

Or, a better analogy may be trying to factor in the quantum base state energy level of the background universe into a nuclear explosion. Sure, it's there, but it's several dozen orders of magnitude smaller than the effect that is relevant.
 
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I know that makes sense to computationalists, but there are many other specialists (psychologists, philosophers, cognitive neuroscientists, biologists, ethologists, and more) for whom it does not.
My point is you can't have it both ways. You can't interpret 'information' in the computational/physical sense, and try to extend or re-interpret that in the philosophical or epistemological sense.

As an example, one can show a fundamental compression limit on information. I forget what it is, but I once wrote an algorithm that hit something like 11% lossless compression on plain text. I can show mathematical equivalency in information, with a smaller data set as a result, with the uncompressed data being in a low entropic state, and the compressed data set being in a high entropic state.

One cannot ascribe such descriptions to philosophical descriptions of "information" or "knowledge." Or psychology, etc. Cognitive neuroscience, perhaps, but only when dealing with Information in the formal sense, not the informal sense.

Major category error in my opinion.
Yes, there is a distinction to be made between memory and sense of self. Memory has long been considered to be necessary for the construction of a sense of 'self'. The marvel Panksepp points out is that in the loss, the absence, of memory, through stroke or other brain damage, an individual consciousness can still maintain its sense of self. We see this also in cases of amnesia, when an individual wakes up from an accident of some sort with no remembrance at all of his/her name, identity, origin, or past life, yet functions in this world to which she or he has formerly been accustomed. What does this signify concerning the nature of consciousness and selfhood, personhood, personality? .
My thinking here is that the sense of self could be easily explained as an illusion we tell ourselves, and evolved so we would have a sense of continuity, future planning, and learning.

I.e. I don't have to re-learn something I learned at 5 because that was still me, and I want to gather food for the winter, because it will still be me, then too.

It's like pointing at a river and calling it a river.

It's not the same river the next second, we just call it the same because it's convenient and we are trying to rationalize the world. "River" is not the actual river.
An accretion is not an integrated system. An embodied consciousness is a complex integrated system, integrated within itself and also integrated with its environment. The difference is elaborated in Varela and Thompson's research into self-organizing dissipative systems from the single cell to the human being. This paper is an overview of their approach, referred to as neurophenomenology:

http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~lutz/ET&AL&DC.Neuropheno_intro_2004.pdf

It's late and I'm going to stop here, but will continue tomorrow.
My thinking is that we are not an integrated system, we just have a big, shiny, and new neocortex that is able to be a general-purpose AI and make sense of all the underlying subsystems, abstracting enough of it away that we think we're just one thing.

As an example, if I blew away my hindbrain and replaced it with a machine able to keep my autonomic systems functioning, would I still be me? Probably. If I blew away my limbic system? Maybe... but emotionally I'd be different. My neocortex? No way. The overarching complex meat that made sense of the hardware would be gone, and that's probably mostly of what "me" is when I say "me."
 
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It's been mentioned in previous posts, Gene. Alexander and his taser comments. He has to know that far more people have been killed than he lets on. I am sure you have heard people speaking and your gut just churns because you know something is not right with their statements. He is one and Linda Moulton-Howe is another that comes to mind.

Col. Alexander has taken an oath, I am quite sure, not to divulge certain information. When Alexander and Nick Pope, for instance talk, I have to question what they say and why they are saying it. Are they feeding the public with untruths? I wish people like these would just keep quiet.
 
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It's been mentioned in previous posts, Gene. Alexander and his taser comments. He has to know that far more people have been killed than he lets on. I am sure you have heard people speaking and your gut just churns because you know something is not right with their statements. He is one and Linda Moulton-Howe is another that comes to mind.

Col. Alexander has taken an oath, I am quite sure, not to divulge certain information. When Alexander and Nick Pope, for instance talk, I have to question what they say and why they are saying it. Are they feeding the public with untruths? I wish people like these would just keep quiet.

Same deal with rubber bullets. According to news stories I've seen, more than one person has died after being hit with those. Plus others have been maimed for life. The typical excuse is that it's better to be injured ( even seriously ) than dead. While that may be true in most cases, the problem is that it loosens the restraint that was there so the over all spread of brutal force increases while the few cases of lethal force supposedly decline. Has it really though? Are the numbers of fatal shootings by police actually down? Or is that just an assumption based on this idea that there are more "non-lethal" weapons in use? For all we know the fatalities are the same and we also have more brutality via these "non-lethal" weapons.
 
Actually I'm not sure I am or not, I guess I am if I'm replying here.

I'm not sure about what the underlying point is.

I guess that depends on if you're a determinist or not, and I'm kind of on the fence with that one. My point was that not all living systems require assignment of meaning to respond to stimuli, and in fact our assignment of meaning might be secondary at best or an illusion at worst.

At any rate, evolution doesn't require it, or more living systems than just us and a few others in our planet would need it.

And I guess "most of us" doesn't include me, my sense is that we can use math to describe the known physical universe to several significant digits of accuracy, why not consciousness too? By definition it exists in the physical universe.

Unless, of course, you're speaking of dualism, in which case I guess the conversation is at an end.


Oh, the brain is a QM system all right, as is every atom in the universe.

Whether this has anything to do with consciousness or not, I seriously doubt. The question is actually being proposed and experimented: can we describe a brain using newtonian mechanics, simulate it, and does it become conscious?

My sense is QM is not required to describe how the brain/mind system works at all. There's no QM-relevant interaction that modifies behaviour -- except maybe at the small-scale neurotransmitter uptake, maybe.

It's like trying to take relativity into account in the brain. Sure, it's a relativistic system too, it just doesn't matter in any frame of reference that is really meaningful.

Or, a better analogy may be trying to factor in the quantum base state energy level of the background universe into a nuclear explosion. Sure, it's there, but it's several dozen orders of magnitude smaller than the effect that is relevant.

Well it does appear that you are interested in the questions and issues we discuss in the C&P thread. I suggest we take this conversation over there, where many significant perspectives have been, are being brought to these questions and issues. Much activity there today, btw. You could start with the last few pages and dive in.

Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 2 | Page 37 | The Paracast Community Forums
 
My point is you can't have it both ways. You can't interpret 'information' in the computational/physical sense, and try to extend or re-interpret that in the philosophical or epistemological sense.

As an example, one can show a fundamental compression limit on information. I forget what it is, but I once wrote an algorithm that hit something like 11% lossless compression on plain text. I can show mathematical equivalency in information, with a smaller data set as a result, with the uncompressed data being in a low entropic state, and the compressed data set being in a high entropic state.

One cannot ascribe such descriptions to philosophical descriptions of "information" or "knowledge." Or psychology, etc. Cognitive neuroscience, perhaps, but only when dealing with Information in the formal sense, not the informal sense.

Major category error in my opinion.

My thinking here is that the sense of self could be easily explained as an illusion we tell ourselves, and evolved so we would have a sense of continuity, future planning, and learning.

I.e. I don't have to re-learn something I learned at 5 because that was still me, and I want to gather food for the winter, because it will still be me, then too.

It's like pointing at a river and calling it a river.

It's not the same river the next second, we just call it the same because it's convenient and we are trying to rationalize the world. "River" is not the actual river.

My thinking is that we are not an integrated system, we just have a big, shiny, and new neocortex that is able to be a general-purpose AI and make sense of all the underlying subsystems, abstracting enough of it away that we think we're just one thing.

As an example, if I blew away my hindbrain and replaced it with a machine able to keep my autonomic systems functioning, would I still be me? Probably. If I blew away my limbic system? Maybe... but emotionally I'd be different. My neocortex? No way. The overarching complex meat that made sense of the hardware would be gone, and that's probably mostly of what "me" is when I say "me."

I understand. You're expressing the corticocentric approach common to information theorists steeped in mathematical computation and assuming that computation accounts for everything in the world including experience and thinking. If you reread with patience the Panksepp paper and also (this time) the Mitchell paper, you will see the grounds for a different interpretation of how 'information' functions in the evolving world. I doubt that you will then be so confident of the corticocentric explanation for consciousness and mind. If so, you might find much more of value in the discussions in the C&P thread. If not, you might want to join the thread anyway to argue against our developing concordance concerning the shortcomings of Tononi's Integrated Information Theory of Consciousness.
 
My point is you can't have it both ways. You can't interpret 'information' in the computational/physical sense, and try to extend or re-interpret that in the philosophical or epistemological sense.

As an example, one can show a fundamental compression limit on information. I forget what it is, but I once wrote an algorithm that hit something like 11% lossless compression on plain text. I can show mathematical equivalency in information, with a smaller data set as a result, with the uncompressed data being in a low entropic state, and the compressed data set being in a high entropic state.

One cannot ascribe such descriptions to philosophical descriptions of "information" or "knowledge." Or psychology, etc. Cognitive neuroscience, perhaps, but only when dealing with Information in the formal sense, not the informal sense.

Major category error in my opinion.

My thinking here is that the sense of self could be easily explained as an illusion we tell ourselves, and evolved so we would have a sense of continuity, future planning, and learning.

I.e. I don't have to re-learn something I learned at 5 because that was still me, and I want to gather food for the winter, because it will still be me, then too.

It's like pointing at a river and calling it a river.

It's not the same river the next second, we just call it the same because it's convenient and we are trying to rationalize the world. "River" is not the actual river.

My thinking is that we are not an integrated system, we just have a big, shiny, and new neocortex that is able to be a general-purpose AI and make sense of all the underlying subsystems, abstracting enough of it away that we think we're just one thing.

As an example, if I blew away my hindbrain and replaced it with a machine able to keep my autonomic systems functioning, would I still be me? Probably. If I blew away my limbic system? Maybe... but emotionally I'd be different. My neocortex? No way. The overarching complex meat that made sense of the hardware would be gone, and that's probably mostly of what "me" is when I say "me."

Perhaps a better way to go would be a fresh approach rather than the walls of text, much of it problematic or nonsensical on the C & P thread. I think a more appropriate thread is the What Is Consciousness? It was supposed to have been dedicated to this particular discussion and never really got off the ground. By the way, I agree that the overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to the brain as the source of consciousness is so overwhelming that all other theories pale in comparison. I've been through this all at some length with Constance and smcder and others and it boils down to the same logical conclusions every time.
 
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My point is you can't have it both ways. You can't interpret 'information' in the computational/physical sense, and try to extend or re-interpret that in the philosophical or epistemological sense.

The problem seems to be in the presupposition that "'information' in the computational/physical sense" can function as a total explanation of nature and thus of mind arising in nature. Philosophy and epistemology have evolved in nature (unless you believe in a special creation).

As an example, one can show a fundamental compression limit on information. I forget what it is, but I once wrote an algorithm that hit something like 11% lossless compression on plain text. I can show mathematical equivalency in information, with a smaller data set as a result, with the uncompressed data being in a low entropic state, and the compressed data set being in a high entropic state.

One cannot ascribe such descriptions to philosophical descriptions of "information" or "knowledge." Or psychology, etc. Cognitive neuroscience, perhaps, but only when dealing with Information in the formal sense, not the informal sense.

Major category error in my opinion.

A category error, yes. But it's located in the objectivist presuppositions of materialist/physicalist science and also in information theory as applied by those presuming the adequacy of a computational explanation of the brain and mind.

My thinking here is that the sense of self could be easily explained as an illusion we tell ourselves, and evolved so we would have a sense of continuity, future planning, and learning.

Those smart genes again, anticipating what will be needed before the need for it arises.
 
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Perhaps a fresh approach there rather than the walls of text, much of it problematic or nonsensical on the C & P thread would be a better way to go. I think a more appropriate thread is the What Is Consciousness? It was supposed to have been dedicated to this particular discussion and never really got off the ground. By the way, I agree that the overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to the brain as the source of consciousness is so overwhelming that all other theories pale in comparison. I've been through this all at some length with Constance and smcder and others and it boils down to the same logical conclusions every time.


LOL, :) It always boils down for you to the same 'logical' conclusions that are already embedded in your narrow premises. You have not had the patience to engage the scaffolding and details of many critiques of your and others' reductive thinking about consciousness and mind, what they are, how they have evolved in nature, and what they mean concerning the nature of reality..
 
It's been mentioned in previous posts, Gene. Alexander and his taser comments. He has to know that far more people have been killed than he lets on. I am sure you have heard people speaking and your gut just churns because you know something is not right with their statements. He is one and Linda Moulton-Howe is another that comes to mind.

Col. Alexander has taken an oath, I am quite sure, not to divulge certain information. When Alexander and Nick Pope, for instance talk, I have to question what they say and why they are saying it. Are they feeding the public with untruths? I wish people like these would just keep quiet.
Agreed, I had hoped my question would have been asked:
"Were you an integral player in the distribution effort of the MJ-12 memes upon the public domain, starting in the 1980′s? Do you feel that any player in the disinformation campaign can legitimately be trusted at all no matter how clean they seem to become after telling the ' truth' ?"
 
LOL, :) It always boils down for you to the same 'logical' conclusions that are already embedded in your narrow premises. You have not had the patience to engage the scaffolding and details of many critiques of your and others' reductive thinking about consciousness and mind, what they are, how they have evolved in nature, and what they mean concerning the nature of reality..

Constance, I've had the patience to look over far more than is necessary to reach the conclusion that there's nothing on the C & P thread substantial enough to change my present position on consciousness, plus I monitor the C & P thread just in case something of substance comes up that would give me reason to change my views, but so far, I haven't noticed anything new that hold such promise. I'm still at the spot where I'm considering the role that virtual particles may play in the emergence of consciousness. We've already covered reincarnation, NDE's, and continuity of consciousness, and frankly, I don't even think it's possible that any amount of "scaffolding" or "details" will hold up against the basic problems associated with those ideas, and the one loophole that would allow for them is something you still seem to reject.
 
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Constance, I've had the patience to look over far more than is necessary to reach the conclusion that there's nothing on the C & P thread substantial enough to change my present position on consciousness, plus I monitor the C & P thread just in case something of substance comes up that would give me reason to change my views, but so far, I haven't noticed anything new that hold such promise. I'm still at the spot where I'm considering the role that virtual particles may play in the emergence of consciousness. We've already covered reincarnation, NDE's, and continuity of consciousness, and frankly, I don't even think it's possible that any amount of "scaffolding" or "details" will hold up against the basic problems associated with those ideas, and the one loophole that would allow for them is something you still seem to reject.

There's far more in the C&P thread than discussion of paranormal subject matter (the only discussion you seem to have noticed). In fact, the regulars there have commented from time to time that we've rarely discussed paranormal aspects of consciousness, thus that the thread's title is misleading. The bulk of discussion has revolved around the theories of consciousness and mind developed thus far in philosophy and -- in the last few decades -- a number of scientific disciplines. The interdisciplinary work constitutes the scaffolding of the field of consciousness studies today, and you seem to be blissfully unaware of any of the major issues and problems involved in it.
 
But let's examine this a bit deeper. If what he was saying is true, ( that the military doesn't investigate detections of alien craft because they know they're not a threat ), the logical conclusion then is that they do detect alien craft, but that they don't bother with them because they know somehow that they're not a threat! This naturally begs the question. How do they know that with any certainty? We can't be sure of the assumptions Alexander makes, like if the aliens wanted to wipe us all out that they could do it in a matter of hours.

It's entirely possible, that the alien craft are a long ways from their home world, and therefore supply lines are very long ( perhaps an order of decades or even centuries ), and the few ships that have found their way to our world may not be warships, but exploration vessels with minimal weaponry. So getting into an armed conflict with a species that has nuclear cruise missiles might give them plenty of pause. But the only way for us to know that with any certainty would be by having some kind of direct contact with them.


Basically, this interview convinces me that Alexander either doesn't actually know what's really going on, because he was never given access to the data, or he does know, and has been feeding us disinformation all along.

There are more "threat" options than either: (1) They would defeat us in a matter of minutes or (2) they're no threat at all.

Off the top of my head, here are some examples of threats that aren't number 1 on the list:
  • They have a long term plan that is hostile, but it won't be revealed for some time to come.
  • Their plan involves some hostility without having to wipe us out:
    • They mean to infiltrate or colonize over time
    • They take small segments of the population and are hostile to them
  • They're hostile if we attempt to do certain things that piss them off such as land on the moon, visit the planets
I'm just making these up and I'm sure we can come up with many other scenarios that show that threats can come in all kinds of forms.
 
There are more "threat" options than either: (1) They would defeat us in a matter of minutes or (2) they're no threat at all.

Off the top of my head, here are some examples of threats that aren't number 1 on the list:
  • They have a long term plan that is hostile, but it won't be revealed for some time to come.
  • Their plan involves some hostility without having to wipe us out:
    • They mean to infiltrate or colonize over time
    • They take small segments of the population and are hostile to them
  • They're hostile if we attempt to do certain things that piss them off such as land on the moon, visit the planets
I'm just making these up and I'm sure we can come up with many other scenarios that show that threats can come in all kinds of forms.

Exactly. I think you hit the nail on the head. People tend to think in absolutes or exaggerate an opposing position in order to substantiate their point of view, when in reality, as others here in the forum have pointed out from time to time, reality isn't all drawn black or white only. Just the concept of being a threat in the first place is largely a construct of our own making. We want them to fit nice and neatly into our rules and if they don't, then ignorance of the law is no reason to assume innocence, and voila! The threat is born and we have fighter jets out trying to force them to land on "our terms" according to "our regulations". Meanwhile maybe UFOs are a case where ignorance of the law should be made the exception. Until they're familiar with our rules and regulations and customs, how can we expect them to behave according to our expectations?
 
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