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Debunking Jacques Vallee

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Polterwurst said:
I haven't read Passport to Magonia or any other book by Vallee, but from his interviews I always got the vibe that he was stating the direction the data he gathered was leading in. Did he really write that he thought that "Magonians" equals "aliens" or "demons"? The way I understood it was that he used the "Magonians" as a stand-in for folklore creatures across cultures and that he never said they were "demons"...And why would he try to deceive people? Because he's a disinformation agent? That's obviously nonsense. Because he's trying to peddle some books? As if he needed that with his IT background.
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FWIW: I have read and own every book Vallee has written on UFOs. Many of them I have read several times, some of them many times. IMO: BinM doesn't have a clue about the man, his work or his thinking. He is simply attempting to get a rise out of people with what amounts to half-baked, ill-informed thinking. I will not waste my time reading further into this thread. It really galls me sometimes that some people can simply latch onto a misconceived concept and attack it without a complete understanding of the concept and the thinking that went into formulating the concept. Vallee has been at this for almost 60 years and written a dozen books on the subject. He is a brilliant thinker and NOT a part of the problem. His creative analysis of the UFO phenomenon deserves respect—not ignorant slagging by someone who obviously hasn't a clue about the man and his work. Whether you agree w/ him or not, he has moved the field forward by leaps and bounds and is NOT the cause of it's disfunction and lack of gravitas.
 
Christopher O'Brien said:
FWIW: I have read and own every book Vallee has written on UFOs. Many of them I have read several times, some of them many times. IMO: BinM doesn't have a clue about the man, his work or his thinking. He is simply attempting to get a rise out of people with what amounts to half-baked, ill-informed thinking. I will not waste my time reading further into this thread. It really galls me sometimes that some people can simply latch onto a misconceived concept and attack it without a complete understanding of the concept and the thinking that went into formulating the concept. Vallee has been at this for almost 60 years and written a dozen books on the subject. He is a brilliant thinker and NOT a part of the problem. His creative analysis of the UFO phenomenon deserves respect—not ignorant slagging by someone who obviously hasn't a clue about the man and his work. Whether you agree w/ him or not, he has moved the field forward by leaps and bounds and is NOT the cause of it's disfunction and lack of gravitas.
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Chris you're a fan boy. Your anger over this betrays that.

As I stated before, you can believe Vallee. That's fine. It's just he has convinced you of things without presenting one piece of evidence.

So your claim that Vallee has advanced this field and our understanding just doesn't hold up to scrutiny when one realizes that Vallee has not and can't produce one shred of evidence for his claims.

The same goes for Keel and the like. It's all just mental masturbation. It's interesting to ponder and it's entertaining, but it's just mental masturbation no less.

For those who haven't seen this documentary, I would recommend, UFOs The Secret History. In the documentary it is briefly discussed how Vallee and similar people actually helped to form the "The Psychological-Social Explanation" behind UFOs, meaning that it's all in your head, that UFOs are just modern day fairy tales. That may not be what Vallee and similar people may have set out to do but it's the result of their work, no less. Because when you try to tell scientists that UFOs aren't "real" that it's something more mystical and magical, they respond with, "Yes, we agree. UFOs aren't real. It's all in your head."

I can't remember what part of the documentary in which it is discussed so I will rewatch it and then post the time stamp here in this comment.

 
BoyintheMachine said:
None of that is new to me. However, the claim that is made by people who knew Hynek is that he changed his mind before he died and realized that if UFOs aren't nuts and bolts, aren't real as we understand reality, then it's not worth studying. As I stated before, we just don't have public statements from Hynek indicating he had changed his mind again. So its a matter of who you want to believe at this point.

Remember, when you claim a magical explanation science will always interpret this as "it's bull shit". I think Hynek was smart enough to realize that all this magical mystical stuff was detrimental to UFOs ever being taken seriously by science.
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As we don't have a science to explain it you can understand why it has appeared both magical and mystical to us humans. And are you saying that just because we don't understand the science of the UAP that we should not pursue any other avenues? Should we also burn the heretics? How do we progress through uncharted waters without imagination? What did Einstein say about imagination?

You might be missing the point of how scientific progress works and has worked and been delayed over the years - close minded belief systems would still have us at the centre of the universe and all things revolving around us. And the heretics, the free thinkers and inventors would be dead or silenced.

I used to beat the UFO science drum a lot as well until I realized that the best progressive thinking was imaginative and it was also scientific in its approach. This problem requires expansive thinking and not regimented blinders so that the horse can only focus on carrying the load. It does need wild minds trying to catalogue and categorize what is certainly a very diverse phenomenon. Anyone who thinks UFO's are only space ships from another star system has not been reading the case studies. There is a range of experiences and there are many incredible possible crafts.

Should we be stuck in a 1960's mentality on this point, because if so then we met be missing out on the fact that panet earth is obviously a hotspot tourist destination for hundreds of different lifeforms, or their camouflage keeps changing. And if we are not going to study the psychological, physical and sociological impact they are having through other disciplines (not comics or sawing people in half) then we would be pretty ignorant and short sighted about it all. You name me which idiot of a close minded scientist that doesn't study the effects of a process or chemical reaction in order to try to deduct what's actually taking place?

Just because we can't see germs doesn't mean we should call them fanciful inventions of the mind, same goes for gamma rays, the composition of the air you breathe, the effects of sunlight at the cellular level and countless other invisible processes. But if you want to continue banging hammers together go for it. Vallée is not anti-science - he's freed up scientific thinking to allow for the possibility of other sciences we've just started to consider to be applied.
 
P.S. you totally miss the point of Vallée, and his own evolution of thinking on the subject - it's never been about it all just being in your head, though I do believe a good chunk of the paranormal & UFO experience is caught up in sociological history and how it interacts with our neurochemistry. But when Vallée has actually documented thousands of cases, and investigated the physical components and effects of such cases, as he continues to do how can you in good conscience continue to misspeak? I also think this thread is dead Zed.
 
Burnt State said:
As we don't have a science to explain it you can understand why it has appeared both magical and mystical to us humans. And are you saying that just because we don't understand the science of the UAP that we should not pursue any other avenues? Should we also burn the heretics? How do we progress through uncharted waters without imagination? What did Einstein say about imagination?

You might be missing the point of how scientific progress works and has worked and been delayed over the years - close minded belief systems would still have us at the centre of the universe and all things revolving around us. And the heretics, the free thinkers and inventors would be dead or silenced.

I used to beat the UFO science drum a lot as well until I realized that the best progressive thinking was imaginative and it was also scientific in its approach. This problem requires expansive thinking and not regimented blinders so that the horse can only focus on carrying the load. It does need wild minds trying to catalogue and categorize what is certainly a very diverse phenomenon. Anyone who thinks UFO's are only space ships from another star system has not been reading the case studies. There is a range of experiences and there are many incredible possible crafts.

Should we be stuck in a 1960's mentality on this point, because if so then we met be missing out on the fact that panet earth is obviously a hotspot tourist destination for hundreds of different lifeforms, or their camouflage keeps changing. And if we are not going to study the psychological, physical and sociological impact they are having through other disciplines (not comics or sawing people in half) then we would be pretty ignorant and short sighted about it all. You name me which idiot of a close minded scientist that doesn't study the effects of a process or chemical reaction in order to try to deduct what's actually taking place?

Just because we can't see germs doesn't mean we should call them fanciful inventions of the mind, same goes for gamma rays, the composition of the air you breathe, the effects of sunlight at the cellular level and countless other invisible processes. But if you want to continue banging hammers together go for it. Vallée is not anti-science - he's freed up scientific thinking to allow for the possibility of other sciences we've just started to consider to be applied.
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You stated we don't have the science to understand it. That is part of this anti-science Ufological mumbo jumbo/jargon that is used as an excuse. As I stated earlier, that excuse does not hold up to scrutiny.

We do have the science to understand it. However, by it's very nature we are dealing with a superior intelligence, not an inferior intelligence. People don't appreciate how difficult it is to prove the existence of a superior race. Since people don't get immediate satisfaction they then jump to magical explanations.
 
Burnt State said:
P.S. you totally miss the point of Vallée, and his own evolution of thinking on the subject - it's never been about it all just being in your head, though I do believe a good chunk of the paranormal & UFO experience is caught up in sociological history and how it interacts with our neurochemistry. But when Vallée has actually documented thousands of cases, and investigated the physical components and effects of such cases, as he continues to do how can you in good conscience continue to misspeak? I also think this thread is dead Zed.
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No, you've completely misunderstood me. Vallee believes in things similar to Keel, that there is a mysterious something that has been interacting with and manipulating humanity under the guises of gods, demons, angels, fairies, and now UfOs/Aliens. I've never stated that Vallee said its all in your head. Instead, I've stated that Vallee ended up convincing scientists that UFOs are bull shit. He did this by insisting that they aren't "real" by our understanding of what real is. Scientists agreed with Vallee on that point, they aren't real. However, instead of believing Valle's claim of something more mysterious, they countered with "It's all in your head". This is what is called blowback or unforeseen consequences. Vallee ultimately inflicted a serious blow to Ufology for insisting that UFOs aren't "real", aren't nuts and bolts. Because of Vallee scientists left Ufology in droves and the "psycho-social hypothesis" of UFOs was formed.
 
If for you it's magical then you need to expand your vision. You answer the fanciful germ question and I'll get back to you because from my perspective you're the voice of anti-science, dismissing its creativity and ability to imagine laws outside the laws we currently know. Paradigms must change. Please review the history of the models of the atom, and start with atomic consciousness first.

In the meantime here's something you can groove to:
 
Burnt State said:
If for you it's magical then you need to expand your vision. You answer the fanciful germ question and I'll get back to you because from my perspective you're the voice of anti-science, dismissing its creativity and ability to imagine laws outside the laws we currently know. Paradigms must change. Please review the history of the models of the atom, and start with atomic consciousness first.

In the meantime here's something you can groove to:
Click to expand...


Germ theory is rooted in science. Your take on UFOs is anti-science. If you claim that our science can't understand UFOs then you are against our science, i.e. anti-science. Since you are incapable of producing anything new to replace this science that you oppose then you can go nowhere with this. Everyone in the UFO field who is anti-science is just spinning around in circles.
 
Do you really imagine the bulk of the scientific community read Jaques and collectively said, "oh we'll, that's done"? That's a fantasy you are constructing. Gov't agencies did their best to control the science, reporting and investigation of UFO's and they did their best, along with the debunking set to ruin the lives of scientists like MacDonald way before Vallée was publishing. Let's get facts straight before we proceed.
 
BoyintheMachine said:
Germ theory is rooted in science. Your take on UFOs is anti-science. If you claim that our science can't understand UFOs then you are against our science, i.e. anti-science. Since you are incapable of producing anything new to replace this science that you oppose then you can go nowhere with this. Everyone in the UFO field who is anti-science is just spinning around in circles.
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Ok, then who were all those other people who said germs were unreal and fantasies - other close minded men of science with no imagination. You are following in their footsteps and missing out on scientific progress at the same time. Watch the video - it's a good summation and you can sing along too. It's either that or continue to use the same operating smock surgeons used to use for each operation, so covered in crusty gore they would stand up on their own in the corner of their offices, and when worn effectively killed many of their patients because they could not imagine the science of germs and called it mumbo jumbo, just like you.
 
Burnt State said:
Do you really imagine the bulk of the scientific community read Jaques and collectively said, "oh we'll, that's done"? That's a fantasy you are constructing. Gov't agencies did their best to control the science, reporting and investigation of UFO's and they did their best, along with the debunking set to ruin the lives of scientists like MacDonald way before Vallée was publishing. Let's get facts straight before we proceed.
Click to expand...


Before Vallee arrived on the scene the ETH and "nuts and bolts" reigned supreme. Scientists were getting into the study of UFOs. Then Vallee appears on the scene and says, "Wait a minute..., the "nuts and bolts" is wrong. UFOs aren't real as we know reality to be". Vallee blew up and became extremely popular. He was so popular that he convinced Hynek. That's how popular Vallee was. So Vallee had a lot of sway over people and a consequence of this was the creation of the psycho-social hypothesis of UFOs.
 
Burnt State said:
Ok, then who were all those other people who said germs were unreal and fantasies - other close minded men of science with no imagination. You are following in their footsteps and missing out on scientific progress at the same time. Watch the video - it's a good summation and you can sing along too. It's either that or continue to use the same operating smock surgeons used to use for each operation, so covered in crusty gore they would stand up on their own in the corner of their offices, and when worn effectively killed many of their patients because they could not imagine the science of germs and called it mumbo jumbo, just like you.
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I'm not going to talk about germs with you. You are using a tactic that is similar to what Creationists use to try to make themselves be the intelligent side while making the Evolutionists out to be irrational. Germs have nothing to do with this topic and it's something that you have inserted into this conversation.
 
BoyintheMachine said:
Chris you're a fan boy. Your anger over this betrays that.
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My anger is over your ill-conceived attitude and your argument-for-arguments sake. Like I said before—you haven't a clue about the man and his work. Go get your ass up2speed and them come back and talk from a place of authority. Personally, I'm done here.
 
Christopher O'Brien said:
My anger is over your ill-conceived attitude and your argument-for-arguments sake. Like I said before—you haven't a clue about the man and his work. Go get your ass up2speed and them come back and talk from a place of authority. Personally, I'm done here.
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Chris, I can neither debate nor argue with a fan boy. The man is a god in your eyes.
 
Responding to these brain farts only encourages more of the same. Is anyone here so bored they need to continue arguing with someone who believes in demons and who says someone like Jacques Vallee is "anti-science"? This genius is indistinguishable from a garden variety troll and deserves no attention on an intelligent forum like this.
 
Double Nought Spy said:
Responding to these brain farts only encourages more of the same. Is anyone here so bored they need to continue arguing with someone who believes in demons and who says someone like Jacques Vallee is "anti-science"? This genius is indistinguishable from a garden variety troll and deserves no attention on an intelligent forum like this.
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I do not believe in demons and I wrote that Ufology is anti-science.

I have to constantly deal with people like you who make up lies about me. I'm well used to it and it's not the first time it's happened in this thread.
 
Christopher O'Brien said:
FWIW: I have read and own every book Vallee has written on UFOs. Many of them I have read several times, some of them many times. IMO: BinM doesn't have a clue about the man, his work or his thinking. He is simply attempting to get a rise out of people with what amounts to half-baked, ill-informed thinking. I will not waste my time reading further into this thread. It really galls me sometimes that some people can simply latch onto a misconceived concept and attack it without a complete understanding of the concept and the thinking that went into formulating the concept. Vallee has been at this for almost 60 years and written a dozen books on the subject. He is a brilliant thinker and NOT a part of the problem. His creative analysis of the UFO phenomenon deserves respect—not ignorant slagging by someone who obviously hasn't a clue about the man and his work. Whether you agree w/ him or not, he has moved the field forward by leaps and bounds and is NOT the cause of it's disfunction and lack of gravitas.
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Vallee is clearly one of those thinkers whose proliferating ideas call for competent and comprehensive explication by someone who has read and understood everything he's written and can present his thought to those of us who haven't read all that Vallee has written. Is there such a book available now? In the academic world such interpretation and explication is usually provided by one or more of the advanced students of major thinkers and theorists. It may be that, working outside of an academic community, Vallee has not had the benefit of attentive exponents of his works.
 
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