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Polterwurst
Paranormal Adept
Lookit that. There's a link to the actual article on there. I'd searched the site a few days ago but there wasn't any mention of the results yet. Now we're talking.
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smcder
Guest
Doch ... ;-)
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
A question re near death experiences that is probably not new, but that I have not seen posed before:
Assuming the NDE during cardiac arrest is an experience outside the parameters of conventional medical science, is it actually triggered by the physical death of the body alone? Could it, alternatively, represent a kind of bifurcation in the timeline of the experiencer's life wherein fate, god, the universe--call it what you like--is making a life/death decision to which the person is in some way privy by virtue of their OBE etc. ? In this case, the issue would not be physical death per se, but rather whether or not fate's intention was to enact it in a particular instance. A sort of "glitch" in the path of time's arrow not understood in terms of consciousness.
Assuming the NDE during cardiac arrest is an experience outside the parameters of conventional medical science, is it actually triggered by the physical death of the body alone? Could it, alternatively, represent a kind of bifurcation in the timeline of the experiencer's life wherein fate, god, the universe--call it what you like--is making a life/death decision to which the person is in some way privy by virtue of their OBE etc. ? In this case, the issue would not be physical death per se, but rather whether or not fate's intention was to enact it in a particular instance. A sort of "glitch" in the path of time's arrow not understood in terms of consciousness.
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smcder
Guest
Not sure I follow ... so the person dies physically but then there is an additional choice to be made in terms of life or death, made by some external agency and the person is aware of this because they are OOB at the time? Is that right? Interesting ...
I've read some cases where people are called towards the light but then also hear a call to go back away from the light, so this seems like sometimes there is a choice ... or maybe you can throw the system off by showing up early:
"Sorry, you're ten years early, we have a nice waiting room with free coffee."
Which makes me think of something else I've long wondered ... people think the idea of having to deal with a bureaucracy after-death is ridiculous, but personally I find dealing with it in the here and now to be ridiculous ... and it seems like things have to be organized somehow wherever you go ... sadly, there probably isn't any reason to expect it to be more efficient on the other side.
See PKD's short story The Adjustment Bureau - a little different from the movie.
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
Perhaps this could be viewed along the lines of the universe as computed virtual reality with the NDE being a minor software glitch or unresolved logic state. This might line up with concepts of the universe as a hologram with data and computation taking place on the 2D surface of a singularity. This is pretty woo. But so are NDEs and OBEs.
Thanks for the PKD suggestion. My goal is to leave nothing of his not read.
A few random notations along these lines:
-Jung postulated that rather than the deceased being privy to everything in our world, this may be totally untrue and they may be as ignorant of goings on in this plane of existence as we are of theirs. In which case they might be eager upon our arrival for the latest news. A little tongue in cheek, maybe.
-One of my favorite depictions of the afterlife as business as usual, and ceaseless red tape is in Robert Heinlein's book "Job". The angels in heaven lobby against the installation of plumbing in their neighborhoods as it might tend to attract inferior creatures such as humans who need plumbing.
-In Roger Zelazny's "Eye Of Cat", a response to a query of a living person to one who is deceased about the experience of being dead. The answer is something like, "Oh, it has its advantages. It has its disadvantages."
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smcder
Guest
The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick: Philip K. Dick, Pamela Jackson, Jonathan Lethem: 9780547549255: Amazon.com: Books
interview with Pamela Jackson:
Philip K. Dick’s Exegesis at Expanding Mind
Jonathan Lethem did some interviews too, I think maybe on AeonBytes Gnostic Radio but looks like Miguel is doing his last podcast and the site has changed, I can't find it.
Job: A Comedy of Justice and A Canticle for Leibowitz got me through a real rough spot, I don't know how I happened on those two books, but I kept my head down in those pages as much as I could and when I was done, things were much better, so I have a soft spot for them. I've had several ideas for short stories on the subject too, I'm so rusty in my creative writing but might be fun to play around with it, has there ever been a thread on the forum to share fiction?
Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
Has anyone yet mentioned the program "I survived", the NDE styled one- Where they interview random NDE'S and explain in detail what they experienced? This program was only on for a season or two, and I found much more interesting than the regular program "I survived" -I was always curious just how many people, even non-religious type, would have a typical religious experience before waking up in the body. The most common "non religious" detail, is the slamming back into the body, explained as a violent impact of the conscious going back into the body. One sincere gentleman interviewed spoke of finding himself on a hill, where many people were mingling around a giant man, who looked very much like Christ, or whom he portrayed as being. Nearby was a large cathedral, where he found himself inside. A lot of excitement, singing, and pleas from the congregation asking if this gentleman's mother could be summoned to the cathedral. In which this guy had heard a loud "no, not yet time" -before being slammed back into his body. I found this experience interesting, again, because this guy claimed not to have been brought up in a religious home. Another very common side effect of the NDE, is the utter disappointment of being returned to the body. Some things I wonder? Had this particular fellow been say, muslim or jewish(maybe he was?) or indian- Would that have altered the details of his NDE? Another common detail I recall of several experiencers interviews- some of them refusing to step into "a light" and being tricked into doing so. Like one guy found himself on a stage acting out a script, where he was instructed to step towards the light. Knowing something wasn't right, he refused, only to find himself in another situation being played out- all of which was designed to get him to go voluntarily into a light. So many similar details- yet so many differences also.
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smcder
Guest
No one has mentioned this program ... I'm looking to see if it's available to watch.
The religious experiences are interesting ... as is the part about being tricked to go into the light. The sense of being slammed back into the body ... I'd like to know more about as I've had something that sounds like that, most often when waking from naps - not the typical "falling" sensation but as you say being slammed back into the body.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
That sounds a lot like the by-product of sleep inertia. The worst kind of nap is one that extends past thirty minutes when the body starts to enter real sleep. Suddenly waking from this can feel like you just walked into a wall or had your body hit by Thor's hammer.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
This link has within it an embedded video - actually two videos. One from Morgan Freedman's television show.
LINK: Brain Surgeon Visits the 'Other Side' and Lives to Tell You About It | The Mind Unleashed
LINK: Brain Surgeon Visits the 'Other Side' and Lives to Tell You About It | The Mind Unleashed
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smcder
Guest
Were there Living Wills at the time?
(1) END-OF-LIFE DECISIONS: I direct that my health care providers and others involved in my care provide, withhold, or withdraw treatment in accordance with the choice I have marked below: (Initial only one box)
• [___] (a) Choice NOT To Prolong Life. I do not want my life to be prolonged if (1) I have an incurable and irreversible condition that will result in my death within a relatively short time, (2) I become unconscious and, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I will not regain consciousness, or (3) the likely risks and burdens of treatment would outweigh the expected benefits, OR
• [___] (b) Choice To Prolong Life. I want my life to be prolonged as long as possible within the limits of generally accepted health care standards.
(2) RELIEF FROM PAIN: Except as I state in the following space, I direct that treatment for alleviation of pain or discomfort should be provided at all times even if it hastens my death:
The way it is written here, you don't have an "opt out" option, so you would have to come up with good language to cover you ...
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smcder
Guest
Sounds like the log flume! lol my favorite ride ... that's how I'd like to go ...
I'm working on my Living Will and here is how it's written for pain relief:
(2) RELIEF FROM PAIN: Except as I state in the following space, I direct that treatment for alleviation of pain or discomfort should be provided at all times even if it hastens my death:
So you don't have an opt-out per se, you've got to write something in ... I want to go like Steve Jobs maybe? I'm really not sure what to put here ... I'd think if you were writhing or yelling, they'd do something, but if you're unconscious, how do they determine your pain level? Are there biomarkers? (besides the "grimace")
Looks like there are ... FLACC and COMFORT, etc ratings based on facial expressions, etc in combination with blood pressure and other indicators ...
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