Bill Maher on Jesus Camp

[Stillborn]

 

[Xylo]

I like Bill. I recently saw his movie "Religilous" and thought it was fairly well done, though he didn't get into core issues as deeply as I would have liked.

 

[cindysue]

That documentary made me sick. My mother in law would fit in perfectly there. It's funny..through her I totally understand where the terrorists are coming from. If the pastor of her church told her that her kids would go to heaven if they strapped a bomb on them and blew up a bunch of Muslims, I think she'd be over here in a second to talk my husband into it.

 

[Stillborn]

That documentary made me sick. My mother in law would fit in perfectly there. It's funny..through her I totally understand where the terrorists are coming from. If the pastor of her church told her that her kids would go to heaven if they strapped a bomb on them and blew up a bunch of Muslims, I think she'd be over here in a second to talk my husband into it.

You talking about religulous or the doc in the vid?

I loled at the part in Religulous where they showed a suicide bomber flying through the air after the comment that preacher with all the bling talked about channeling romantic passion toward christ. Those idiots think they'll get 100 virgins or something like that.

The doc didn't anger me as much as I thought it would. Guess because Bill was there to make sense and make them look like the idiots they are. I've watched it twice already and loved it. If anyone knows of another documentary like that let me know.

 

[cottonzway]

Bill Maher = Limited Hangout

 

[Xylo]

That documentary made me sick. My mother in law would fit in perfectly there. <snip>

Your MIL and my parents. If I showed them the "Jesus Camp" movie, they'd sign up all my nieces and nephews.

 

[jpw.in.wi]

Maher is an anti-Christian hater on a par with anti-semites and racists of every stripe. He frightens me. Honestly, the hatred and conceit that he communicates through his body language, tone of voice, and the patterns of his rhetoric every time he starts the Christian bashing are just like those of anti-semites and racists.

The propaganda technique is not complicated: focus in on the group you hate until you find small deviant segments--even a handful of individuals will do--who are saying or doing things that any reasonable person would judge to be wrong.

If you're a white supremacist, you talk nonstop about black-on-white crime, especially the rape of white women by non-whites.

If you're an anti-semite, you talk nonstop about every Jewish white collar criminal--the Bernie Madoffs of the world--who gets into the news, as well as every story you can find about atrocities committed by Jewish Israelis against non-Jewish Palestinians.

If you're a black supremacist, you talk nonstop about the evil rich white people who are responsible for minority poverty and crime rates.

If you're an anti-Christian bigot, you talk non-stop about every weird, unsophisticated, ignorant, snake-handling sect that claims to worship Christ, and don't forget to bring up Catholic priests who molest little boys.

Do this again, and again, and again, and allow the consumers of your hateful propaganda to slowly associate Jews, or blacks, or whites, or Catholics as a whole with your carefully chosen weirdos, deviants, and criminals. Then, the next step is to start talking about the hard decisions that have to be made as to how these dangerous groups need to be dealt with. You talk about restricting their speech and activities in various ways, testing the court system to see how far judges are willing to go in restricting them, maybe even marking them in some way so they can be more easily recognizable out in public. Ultimately, you talk about "The Final Solution."

If these haters could have their way, they ultimately would make the object of their hate disappear. They would bury them. In other things, the haters might be very nice, even considerate and compassionate, or funny, as Maher is. But not when it comes to the object of their hatred. One notorious hater claimed that, while he was living as a street bumb in Vienna, his own battle against daily hunger moved him to have so much compassion for a little hungry mouse that had wondered near his bunk that he shared crumbs of his bread with it. The same man also was a vegetarian due to his belief that it was inhumane to kill animals in order to eat them. His tender love for his German Shepherd, Blondi, was noted. But at the same time he was responsible for the near extermination of the Jews in Europe.

I hope some day Maher will get his hatred under control. You just never know what ramifications your words and actions can have on others, or how far out the ripples travel when you start throwing stones into the pond.

 

[Ezechiel]

Maher is an anti-Christian hater on a par with anti-semites and racists of every stripe. He frightens me. Honestly, the hatred and conceit that he communicates through his body language, tone of voice, and the patterns of his rhetoric every time he starts the Christian bashing are just like those of anti-semites and racists.

I assume you feel threatened by his raw, to the point, analysis of faith and religions.

Maher is obviously not religious and his observations are made from outside any religious framework and are offered to make you think. (That doesn't prevent him from being spiritual by the way).

Your fear is a fear of losing faith in a religion showing cracks of vulnerability. His comments are compelling and have nothing to do with racism and hatred. Instead of debating his points you're talking about body language and go on to call him a conceited racist. To be honest, you scare the heck out of me !

I suggest you read up and build a balanced perspective. (BTW... I remember a time when bibles were only available in latin so that no one would read them).

 

[jpw.in.wi]

I assume you feel threatened by his raw, to the point, analysis of faith and religions.

Are you serious?! You really think this little video clip represents "analysis of faith and religions"? There's nothing new here. I heard this same stupid "debate" break out probably 20 times among the drunk students I partied with in college. The self-proclaimed atheists were usually the aggressors, but I never saw any of them get so worked up during their attacks on the "believers" that they reflexively smacked themselves in the head, as Maher does here. You really think you can't tell anything about a person by his or her body language, or the way they speak to others? Aren't we hardwired to make judgements about others based on how they come at us?

Maher is obviously not religious and his observations are made from outside any religious framework and are offered to make you think. (That doesn't prevent him from being spiritual by the way).

Maher's routine is not about making people think. He is not making a contribution to any sort of elevated conversation about religion. He has a TV show, and he needs ratings.

Your fear is a fear of losing faith in a religion showing cracks of vulnerability. His comments are compelling and have nothing to do with racism and hatred. Instead of debating his points you're talking about body language and go on to call him a conceited racist. To be honest, you scare the heck out of me !

You dont' know anything about me or what I fear. And as for his comments having nothing to do with racism, if you watch the video, at one point he keeps badgering the Christian member of his "roundtable," or whatever, and he puts the words in her mouth that, since he doesn't agree with her religious opinions, then she HAS to believe that he is her biological inferior. This makes absolutely no sense! Is that a "point" that I or anyone else should take serious enough to debate somehow? It's a total non sequitur! It's irrational!

I suggest you read up and build a balanced perspective. (BTW... I remember a time when bibles were only available in latin so that no one would read them).

I suggest you actually read my post, and actually watch the video. I don't like bigots of any stripe, whether they're attacking another race, another religion, or what have you. That's what drove me to write my previous post.

If Maher stops smacking himself and starts intelligently discussing disagreements he has with specific propositions made in papal encyclicals, or professional theological works, I might view him differently. But of course he'll never do that: that would be professional suicide! Remember, he needs ratings! Balance? That's Maher's enemy.

If Maher is an analyst of religion and faith, then Jerry Springer is a marriage therapist. Get real!

(By the way, exactly when and where were you living when bibles were "only available in latin so that no one would read them"?)

"Be good to yourself, and each other..."​

 

[CapnG]

Don't dismiss the personality component so quickly, Ezechiel. You see, Bill Maher... is an asshole. I mean it, the guy's a complete asshole. And the thing is, I agree with about 80% of what he says but he's SUCH an asshole that it makes the message hard to hear. That's why I don't get it when I hear liberals place him next to guys like Jon Stewart. What?!

Stewart's a genius. Maher IS AN ASSHOLE. They literally couldn't be further apart, metaphorically.

 

[Xylo]

Are you serious?! You really think this little video clip represents "analysis of faith and religions"? There's nothing new here. I heard this same stupid "debate" break out probably 20 times among the drunk students I partied with in college. The self-proclaimed atheists were usually the aggressors, but I never saw any of them get so worked up during their attacks on the "believers" that they reflexively smacked themselves in the head, as Maher does here. You really think you can't tell anything about a person by his or her body language, or the way they speak to others? Aren't we hardwired to make judgements about others based on how they come at us?

Interesting observation here.

When I was in college it was the Christians offering to pray for me so that I might be saved. In fact it was they who could come up with no credible argument as to why their religion was the correct religion. Every conversation ended when they stopped listening and kept repeating the same point over and over again, all the while continuing the promise to pray for me, so that I might "see the truth, and the error of my ways."

Poppycock, I say. I care not what they believe. I do care when they act so pious, judgemental, and self righteous in their condemnation of me as a person.

Maher's routine is not about making people think. He is not making a contribution to any sort of elevated conversation about religion. He has a TV show, and he needs ratings.

I agree. Moreover, I'd say he's proselytizing atheism as others proselytize religion.

And as for his comments having nothing to do with racism, if you watch the video, at one point he keeps badgering the Christian member of his "roundtable," or whatever, and he puts the words in her mouth that, since he doesn't agree with her religious opinions, then she HAS to believe that he is her biological inferior. This makes absolutely no sense! Is that a "point" that I or anyone else should take serious enough to debate somehow? It's a total non sequitur! It's irrational!

And how is this different from a christian telling me I need to be "saved" and that I am "lost?"

If Maher stops smacking himself and starts intelligently discussing disagreements he has with specific propositions made in papal encyclicals, or professional theological works, I might view him differently.

Is not the Bible the basis for those papal encyclicals or professional theological works? I'd say he's going directly to source material.

(By the way, exactly when and where were you living when bibles were "only available in latin so that no one would read them"?)

Actually the previous poster's statement was incorrect. It should be redacted to say "no one but clergy could read them."

However that is rather misleading as well. Literacy in the middle ages was very, very low, especially amongst the serfs, servants and non-nobles.

 

[Ezechiel]

You dont' know anything about me or what I fear. And as for his comments having nothing to do with racism, if you watch the video, at one point he keeps badgering the Christian member of his "roundtable," or whatever, and he puts the words in her mouth that, since he doesn't agree with her religious opinions, then she HAS to believe that he is her biological inferior. This makes absolutely no sense! Is that a "point" that I or anyone else should take serious enough to debate somehow? It's a total non sequitur! It's irrational!

If you listen to what she is saying in the video: 'You (Maher) are where I was a few years ago'. If that is not condescending, I don't know what is

That unfortunate statement triggered an appropriate response from Maher. Do you have lower moral standards because you are an atheist ?!?!?! Who is she to judge other people ?!?!?!

Do you like to be judged because you have a different belief system or no religious belief ?! Does Maher have a right to be upset when he is attacked ?

Should he just crawl under a rock because a new-born christian tells him he is not saved by Jesus ?!?!

I think he showed extreme restraint in the circumstance... he was obviously pissed off !. If you can't recognize the just cause of his body language, then I'm forced to conclude that the concept of mutual respect is foreign to you.

You can believe whatever you want but when you cross the line of respect you should expect retribution and a judgemental response (If you have any backbone that is). Beliefs are ultimately personal. When you use a belief to position yourself above another individual, you're building the road to oppression. There's plenty of examples in history books you can choose from... (colonization, destruction of aboriginal cultures... etc.)

I'm fed up with young earth creationists, fundamentalists, and intelligent designers trying to shove their absolutist crap down my throat. If they don't like the modern world, they should just go the Amish way, turn on the candles and shovel the horse shit in their fenced in backyards.

On a planetary scale, I can't think of any human invention more divisive and damaging than religion... can you ? Seeing the new-born christian guest fall into Maher's 'condescendance' trap was amazingly easy and a sad demonstration of what brainwashing can do to rationality.

 

[Ezechiel]

(By the way, exactly when and where were you living when bibles were "only available in latin so that no one would read them"?)

Not so long ago, province of Quebec, Canada (Very conservative, Roman Catholics)... Had to be here in the 50's and 60's. Lots of fun

You can still attend latin masses in most U.S. states and Canada. Be my guest and pick any of these cherries LOL
http://web2.iadfw.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

Who am I to judge...

 

[AnnetteMarie]

Not so long ago, province of Quebec, Canada (Very conservative, Roman Catholics)... Had to be here in the 50's and 60's. Lots of fun

You can still attend latin masses in most U.S. states and Canada. Be my guest and pick any of these cherries LOL
http://web2.iadfw.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

Who am I to judge...

The official version of the Roman Catholic bible was also printed in English in the 50s. My son has one published around 1953. Pre Vatican II? of the early 60s, which is when it became allowable to hold Mass in the language of the congregation.

 

[bsvalley]

The problem I have with arguing about religion is that when you strike a nerve the only answer you get back is... so it is written or That's what the good book says or my favorite......you have to have faith

ok. Back to square -one. Faith, Really? were we not just discussing how I didn't have that because bla bla bla. "Well God said" bla bla bla.

really? when's the last time he said it to you? Really? you mean you read it in a book? that people wrote?
Hmmmm. Ok, you win, I Believe. Oh and let me give you all my money so you can build a bigger and better building that still has the same 4 foot by 4 foot food pantry for the needy. But HOLY shit. look at the size of that lobby.

And Bill Maher is the asshole?
Gimmi an F'n Break!

 

[jpw.in.wi]

I keep promising myself I'm NOT going to write another post for this very unproductive thread ... was I really that unclear that nobody seems to get my point about Maher's bigotry?

The problem I have with arguing about religion is that when you strike a nerve the only answer you get back is... so it is written or That's what the good book says or my favorite......you have to have faith

ok. Back to square -one. Faith, Really? were we not just discussing how I didn't have that because bla bla bla. "Well God said" bla bla bla. really? when's the last time he said it to you? Really? you mean you read it in a book? that people wrote? Hmmmm.

Well, if this is the way the "argument" usually goes for you, have you considered that maybe you're talking to the WRONG people?! Or, maybe it's something you're bringing to the table that's spoiling things--attitudes and prejudices that are influencing you to do or say unhelpful things. You might be the one who steers the discussion in an unproductive direction. Nothing personal--I don't know anything about you--just something to consider, if you're seeing a pattern.

This whole question is really not that complicated. If I want to truly come to understand a religious persuasion, to "analyze" it, as Maher is supposedly so adept at doing, I'm going to do some INTELLIGENT research. I'm not going to ferret out every weird deviant individual or sect of the religion and put them on TV to make fun of and use to defame the religion as a whole.

I'm going to find out who the religion's greatest thinkers were and study as best I can what they wrote and what scholars have to say about them. I'm going to find out who the preeminent modern thinkers are and study them the best I can. If it's Catholicism--Maher's favorite punching bag--I'm going to keep up on what the Pope is writing and give those works the consideration they deserve.

And I'm going to make the move from the head to the heart, looking at who that religion considers to be its greatest saints: the individuals who most heroically put the faith into concrete, daily practice.

Then, being a real analyst, I'm going to talk about those scholars and saints with my audience, what they proposed, what kind of example they set, where I disagree and where I agree. And I'd throw in a wacko every now and then, too, to provide some contrast.

When was the last time you heard Maher say, "You know, I was reading the Summa Theologica the other day, and I really felt that Thomas didn't sufficiently answer the Objections to Question 1, Fourth Article, Whether Sacred Doctrine Is a Practical Science? ..." or "I can't help disagreeing with Stanley Hauerwas in Casusitry in Context: The Need For Tradition. I think that so-called liberal casuistry can in fact break free from the status quo, and here's why ..." or "Last weekend, I went to the Sisters of St. Joseph's infirmary in this small town to spend time with nuns there who are in physical decline, to see if I could get a sense for what kind of women these were who, in spite of economic depression and world wars, built hospitals to care for the sick, schools to educate children ...."

Of course not. That would be like expecting a Holocaust denier to spend time really studying the work of bona fide historians, and listening to people who had actually experienced German concentration camps during WWII, people who KNOW what they're talking about. But that wouldn't support the Holocaust denier in his extreme prejudice and self-deception. Instead, he'd spend his time with other deniers, and they'd continue to fixate on every hoaxed Holocaust memoir they could find, and cite examples of debunked Holocaust myths and bogus "scientific" studies that find no "evidence" of gas chambers or ash heaps, and of course decry Israel for committing "crimes against humanity," etc.

They would continue on this course until something broke in from the outside to change the direction of their stubborn minds.

Ok, you win, I Believe. Oh and let me give you all my money so you can build a bigger and better building that still has the same 4 foot by 4 foot food pantry for the needy. But HOLY shit. look at the size of that lobby.

And Bill Maher is the asshole?
Gimmi an F'n Break!

... yet another contribution to this elevated "analysis" of religion and faith. **sigh :frown:

I wonder what you or Maher have to say about this lady ...

 

[Brian Now]

You dont' know anything about me or what I fear. And as for his comments having nothing to do with racism, if you watch the video, at one point he keeps badgering the Christian member of his "roundtable," or whatever, and he puts the words in her mouth that, since he doesn't agree with her religious opinions, then she HAS to believe that he is her biological inferior. This makes absolutely no sense!

I thought he said "logically inferior" but stumbled as it came out. She's supposed to have a direct line and personal knowledge of the supreme creator of all existence, space and time that he doesn't? Of course he's going to see that as putting him in a lesser position. It's fair to extend "inferior" to that state. Lots of people are horrified when they realize what condescending bastards they were when speaking to the "lost". I talk from personal experience as I myself was a Christian until about the age of 20.

Anyway, Maher is what he is, but it's unfair to lump him in with racists. Say what you want about his personality, but he takes on ideas not races. And by the way,Christians are not a race (I'm referring to your comment quoted above).

And JPW...you've gotta shorten these posts! Very few of us really have that much to say worth reading!

 

[Xylo]

I'm going to find out who the religion's greatest thinkers were and study as best I can what they wrote and what scholars have to say about them. I'm going to find out who the preeminent modern thinkers are and study them the best I can. If it's Catholicism--Maher's favorite punching bag--I'm going to keep up on what the Pope is writing and give those works the consideration they deserve.

And I'm going to make the move from the head to the heart, looking at who that religion considers to be its greatest saints: the individuals who most heroically put the faith into concrete, daily practice.

I think that would be fine...except Maher is not debating fine points of Christianity; he's debating the legitimacy of religion, specifically Christianity in this case, as a system of belief.

I don't think that ANYONE is accusing Mother Theresa, or Ghandi for that matter, of being in contempt of their religious principles. But remember when you throw good people into the argument the bad people can just as easily been thrown into the same argument. (Pope Gregory IX comes to mind, as does Jim Jones.)

 

[AnnetteMarie]

I think that would be fine...except Maher is not debating fine points of Christianity; he's debating the legitimacy of religion, specifically Christianity in this case, as a system of belief.

I think a lot of us who do consider ourselves Christian are getting tired of the bashing.

The fact that you can do it with impunity says a lot more about the Christians, than it does about the bashers.

Let Bill Maher make every attempt to belittle religion, he may be right in every thing he says. But he is not touching faith, which is something entirely different from religion.

I don't need to argue the case of my faith, it is there, and I am the only one to question it, thanks. Which I do, on a regular basis. But that is the funny thing about faith: You either have it, or you don't. You cannot create it, learn it into existence or wish it to be so. You can, however, discover it: A basic understanding that there is something out there bigger than yourself.

I think a faith that relies upon religion for its strength cannot sustain itself should that religion be proven to be false.

Apologies if I have wandered a bit, this is a subject that really could go on forever!

 

[Xylo]

I think a lot of us who do consider ourselves Christian are getting tired of the bashing.

The fact that you can do it with impunity says a lot more about the Christians, than it does about the bashers.

People have been bashing religions, incorporating them, or eliminating them for thousands of years with impunity. Religions, or more specifically those who hold particular religious beliefs, have been taking lives with impunity for thousands of years.

Let Bill Maher make every attempt to belittle religion, he may be right in every thing he says. But he is not touching faith, which is something entirely different from religion.

I don't need to argue the case of my faith, it is there, and I am the only one to question it, thanks. Which I do, on a regular basis. But that is the funny thing about faith: You either have it, or you don't. You cannot create it, learn it into existence or wish it to be so. You can, however, discover it: A basic understanding that there is something out there bigger than yourself.

I think a faith that relies upon religion for its strength cannot sustain itself should that religion be proven to be false.

Even Jesus was purported as saying "A wise man builds his house upon a rock."