Are we doing enough to learn the truth about UFOs?

[technomage]

I meant to say "what about your statement "Truth is ... subjective".

Restating:

If truth is subjective, what about your statement "truth is in and of itself subjective"? Is this statement subjective as well? If yes, then truth may be objective for me but subjective for you. If no, then you're stating an objective truth, which means that truth is not subjective but is objective at least for this statement; and if this statement is objective, why can't other statements be objective as well?

I think I agree with you based on your clarification.

 

[marduk]

I meant to say "what about your statement "Truth is ... subjective".

Restating:

If truth is subjective, what about your statement "truth is in and of itself subjective"? Is this statement subjective as well? If yes, then truth may be objective for me but subjective for you. If no, then you're stating an objective truth, which means that truth is not subjective but is objective at least for this statement; and if this statement is objective, why can't other statements be objective as well?

I think I agree with you based on your clarification.

Guys, didn't Einstein pretty firmly sort out that there is no universal frame of reference?

Two different frames of reference with two different perspectives can both be "true" and yet different.

However, if you understand the differences between your frame of reference and mine, I should be able to approximate yours given mine.

 

[technomage]

Right, but Einstein is stating a universal truth, so I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Yes we do.

We know they reflect light in the visible range, we know they sometimes reflect radar waves, we know they have mass (because they leave marks in the ground), we know they have very high rates of acceleration but it's not infinite, etc, etc, etc.

In short, they seem to share all the properties of mass that we are familiar with in general. Sure you can talk about a few good cases where something even weirder is going on, but a general classification of the bulk of the unknowns (past the lights in the sky stuff) mean that a chunk of mass is floating in the air over there, it looks to be artificial, has non-infinite acceleration, expends energy and it leaves holes in things it bumps into.

Wow, I just learned the coolest trick with this forum. You can click and drag (to highlight and select) over a section of someone's post to respond to the section specifically. Cool!
Edit: The above was edited for accuracy

OK. We DO NOT "know" these things you are claiming. For all these attributes, there are just as many cases to deny or contradict as much. These are hardly the exception, a small portion, or rare in any way. visual sightings/no radar, ground traces/no ground traces, reflecting light? Anything we see in the visible spectrum is reflecting and refracting light. Otherwise we could not see it. Problem is, hallucinations don't reflect light and we still see them all the time. I am NOT doubting UFO veracity here, I am pointing out that these matters in no way constitute substantiated knowledge.

Mass? You have got to be kidding me. That's the most dead give away imaginable. Since when did mass defy gravity? Or the laws of physics, which we consider absolutes the last time I checked. Since when does our technology's mass change shape, shrinking and increasing in undisturbed proportion, or just wink out and disappear?

Just because sightings bear out correlating characteristics does not mean we "know" anything. Especially when MOST of the sightings defy our best understandings. How in the world can we make judgements of speed apart from "very fast". We do not honestly know if we are even witnessing friction based air travel or not. Too many variables to state we know this or that, however what we can state is that "in some cases, it seems as though..."

 

[marduk]

Wow, I just learned the coolest trick with this forum. You can rick click and drag over a section of someone's post to respond to the section specifically. Cool!

cool, I didn't know that either.

OK. We DO NOT "know" these things you are claiming. For all these attributes, there are just as many cases to deny or contradict as much. These are hardly the exception, a small portion, or rare in any way. visual sightings/no radar, ground traces/no ground traces, reflecting light? Anything we see in the visible spectrum is reflecting and refracting light. Otherwise we could not see it. Problem is, hallucinations don't reflect light and we still see them all the time. I am NOT doubting UFO veracity here, I am pointing out that these matters in no way constitute substantiated knowledge.

Well, there's knowing, and there's knowing. I come down in the realm that if enough people report something, and it has other means of verification (photos, videos, radar tracks, whatever) then it's probably true.

I've done some serious mushroom trips in my time, but I've never photographed any of my hallucinations.

Mass? You have got to be kidding me. That's the most dead give away imaginable. Since when did mass defy gravity? Or the laws of physics, which we consider absolutes the last time I checked. Since when does our technology's mass change shape, shrinking and increasing in undisturbed proportion, or just wink out and disappear?

We make mass defy gravity all the time. A 747 weighs almost a million pounds, and the Apollo launch system was almost 7 million pounds.

And Paul Hill's Unconventional Flying Objects asserts that they're using the repulsive force to propel themselves, and the changing shape is really the plasma sheath that is a side effect of the propulsion system. Seems reasonable to me.

Winking out, he asserts, is just ~100G acceleration.

I've seen the mothers move, including "shooting off" quickly, that if you weren't paying attention would have looked like disappearing.

Just because sightings bear out correlating characteristics does not mean we "know" anything. Especially when MOST of the sightings defy our best understandings. How in the world can we make judgements of speed apart from "very fast". We do not honestly know if we are even witnessing friction based air travel or not. Too many variables to state we know this or that, however what we can state is that "in some cases, it seems as though..."

Radar tracks have shown speed.

Multi-witness triangulation has shown speed.

Landing marks on the ground have shown mass.

Again, I wouldn't say it with 100% certainty, but it seems reasonable, at least more than a shrug and I don't know.

I may have a different perspective since I've seen the things a half dozen or so times in my life.

 

[Jeff Davis]

cool, I didn't know that either.

Well, there's knowing, and there's knowing. I come down in the realm that if enough people report something, and it has other means of verification (photos, videos, radar tracks, whatever) then it's probably true.

I've done some serious mushroom trips in my time, but I've never photographed any of my hallucinations.

We make mass defy gravity all the time. A 747 weighs almost a million pounds, and the Apollo launch system was almost 7 million pounds.

And Paul Hill's Unconventional Flying Objects asserts that they're using the repulsive force to propel themselves, and the changing shape is really the plasma sheath that is a side effect of the propulsion system. Seems reasonable to me.

Winking out, he asserts, is just ~100G acceleration.

I've seen the mothers move, including "shooting off" quickly, that if you weren't paying attention would have looked like disappearing.

Radar tracks have shown speed.

Multi-witness triangulation has shown speed.

Landing marks on the ground have shown mass.

Again, I wouldn't say it with 100% certainty, but it seems reasonable, at least more than a shrug and I don't know.

I may have a different perspective since I've seen the things a half dozen or so times in my life.

Please forgive the fact that I don't chop up your posts into little bits and categorically reply in some analytical and linear fashion. I believe in treating a post between two individuals as conversation rather than formal debate.

"Perspective" is a very key word here. It echoes what is the real realm of possibility relative to context. Several thousand years ago, we find the same levels of conviction and certitude that you are expressing in this discussion present in many a recorded paranormal event as translated and conveyed by the witness, albeit in an entirely different context. Forgive me, but I would politely look you in the eye and ask you with utmost gentle sincerity.

"Do you really believe that the last 200 years of human kind's existence has afforded us an accurately imagined and reflectively reasoned "final truth" concerning a phenomena that spans all of recorded time? A phenomena that has literally been interpreted a thousand different ways throughout ages in which mankind has possessed tremendous technical acuities and understanding even to the effect that as much cannot be duplicated in this very day and age"

We struggle with ancient history, while vainly attempting to replicate the likes of the Great Pyramid, and yet are filled and possessed enough of the grandiose nature of our ego centered follies that we think we can know the unknowable that spans all of known time?

Can we survive 100G acceleration? Could any constructed technological vessel of mass that we are familiar with stay intact for even the split second it took to "disappear" in our skys?

There is no end to the realm of possibility as it transcends context. Yesterday it was the work of Gods, it's UFOs today for sure, what will they be 500, or a thousand years from now? Consciousness is more so key IMO, than the transient nature of what will always be it's reflectively reasoned paranormal contents. It is the only constant. A sea of experiences in which all physicality comes from and returns to. One that affords humanity the endlessly progressive bounty of it's boundless yield. It's as you believe Marduk, "many worlds". We are in constant superposition due to the temporal leash that physicality begets. That which keeps us from "truly" knowing, and a good thing that it does, unless you are into, shall we say, and even more so collapsed state of affairs than what Prince Obama could deliver. LOL!!

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Are We Doing Enough to Learn the Truth about UFOs?

Good article. This reaction to a sighting over a high school is basically the same reaction our US has put forth for years, to stifle further conversation on the subject. How would we know what information could be gathered unless we had a citizens group staffed with experts to follow the leads. We have had enough science applied to know we need more. With the changes in our technology we may open new doors to detect the phenomena, sound, laser, etc.

 

[marduk]

Please forgive the fact that I don't chop up your posts into little bits and categorically reply in some analytical and linear fashion. I believe in treating a post between two individuals as conversation rather than formal debate.

"Perspective" is a very key word here. It echoes what is the real realm of possibility relative to context. Several thousand years ago, we find the same levels of conviction and certitude that you are expressing in this discussion present in many a recorded paranormal event as translated and conveyed by the witness, albeit in an entirely different context. Forgive me, but I would politely look you in the eye and ask you with utmost gentle sincerity.

"Do you really believe that the last 200 years of human kind's existence has afforded us an accurately imagined and reflectively reasoned "final truth" concerning a phenomena that spans all of recorded time? A phenomena that has literally been interpreted a thousand different ways throughout ages in which mankind has possessed tremendous technical acuities and understanding even to the effect that as much cannot be duplicated in this very day and age"

We struggle with ancient history, while vainly attempting to replicate the likes of the Great Pyramid, and yet are filled and possessed enough of the grandiose nature of our ego centered follies that we think we can know the unknowable that spans all of known time?

Can we survive 100G acceleration? Could any constructed technological vessel of mass that we are familiar with stay intact for even the split second it took to "disappear" in our skys?

There is no end to the realm of possibility as it transcends context. Yesterday it was the work of Gods, it's UFOs today for sure, what will they be 500, or a thousand years from now? Consciousness is more so key IMO, than the transient nature of what will always be it's reflectively reasoned paranormal contents. It is the only constant. A sea of experiences in which all physicality comes from and returns to. One that affords humanity the endlessly progressive bounty of it's boundless yield. It's as you believe Marduk, "many worlds". We are in constant superposition due to the temporal leash that physicality begets. That which keeps us from "truly" knowing, and a good thing that it does, unless you are into, shall we say, and even more so collapsed state of affairs than what Prince Obama could deliver. LOL!!

There's generalized truth and absolute truth.

Since there's no absolute frame of reference, the only thing we have is our own, that we can prove, and that we trust.

If you're not going to trust anyone's "truth" what's the point in discussing it? I mean, it's like the actual leader of the galaxy in the hitchhiker's guide, who believes nothing, and generalizes everything?

Can we survive 100G acceleration? Actually, we can, briefly. Machines? Missiles do it all the time. And if there's some kind of static field whereby the acceleration is uniform across all the molecules of your body, you wouldn't even feel it.

So, sure. No absolute truth.

But saying that that means we can no nothing, or there's no truth at all, well, you might as well go sit in a corner somewhere, because that's not going to get you very far.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

All this philosophical fluff talk Jeff, seriously? Is there more we can do to study UFOs, yes!

 

[Randall]

All this philosophical fluff talk Jeff, seriously? Is there more we can do to study UFOs, yes!

It does get tedious sometimes doesn't it? And yet we still always end up coming back to it, because what else is core ufology studies about if not to determine the truth about alien visitation? If we get mired down in all the other irrelevant stuff we'll lose sight of that, and sometimes I think that's what some of the players want. If everyone is constantly in a state of confusion, then it's easier for them to claim they're the ones with all the answers.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

It does get tedious sometimes doesn't it? And yet we still always end up coming back to it, because what else is core ufology studies about if not to determine the truth about alien visitation? If we get mired down in all the other irrelevant stuff we'll lose sight of that, and sometimes I think that's what some of the players want. If everyone is constantly in a state of confusion, then it's easier for them to claim they're the ones with all the answers. I say enough of that.

The path has been layed out for us....next move is ours. People have been forced, without resources to move forward, to instead go back and use more advanced methods to study old cases. Through that time each cases gets seriously muddied by authors incorrectly stating data as fact, debunkers adding their koolaide and philosophers telling us all that its a mirage of our imagination , go back to sleep. Although I don't stop looking at old cases, its exciting to think we still haven't applied our best right here and now. I think there's a collective feeling that if we could just lay out a good case for "why" we should study this then the science will follow but I don't think that will happen. I think it's mainly is about money. If , for example some rich private citizens hired scientists to openly study the phenomena, kinda like Chris Rutkowski publishes his work annually, we could advance again to the next stage.

 

[Randall]

The path has been layed out for us....next move is ours. People have been forced, without resources to move forward, to instead go back and use more advanced methods to study old cases. Through that time each cases gets seriously muddied by authors incorrectly stating data as fact, debunkers adding their koolaide and philosophers telling us all that its a mirage of our imagination , go back to sleep. Although I don't stop looking at old cases, its exciting to think we still haven't applied our best right here and now. I think there's a collective feeling that if we could just lay out a good case for "why" we should study this then the science will follow but I don't think that will happen. I think it's mainly is about money. If , for example some rich private citizens hired scientists to openly study the phenomena, kinda like Chris Rutkowski publishes his work annually, we could advance again to the next stage.

Let's consider what constitutes, "the next stage" and follow that to the logical conclusion. Money might be helpful, but what would we do with it? Consider the billions of dollars available to the military around the world for detection, interception, and investigation, yet they don't seem to have all the answers. At best, we the public might be able to hire a few civilians in strategic positions around the world to observe and report UFO activity, and maybe if we got real lucky, get to the scene before the military and upload a video to the Internet.

Then what? Let's suppose that our video precipitates official disclosure and/or a worldwide increase in belief and awareness. How much would things really change? There are already plenty of us who know alien visitation is a reality, and many more who already believe it's probably true, and we have very little of material or scientific value to show for it. Our prize is a worldview that is expanded beyond that of the skeptics and the non-believers. Although that has profound personal value, and it would feel good to be able to share that with the rest of the world, we still need to put food on the table and fuel in our cars and go about the rest of our daily grind.

So unless the aliens come down and announce that they're here to cooperate in a transparent manner with our civilization by opening up an embassy with an exchange program, and helping solve all the world's problems, or conversely, engaging in open warfare, it's back to business as usual. So maybe we're actually in a situation now where doing more won't really make any difference anyway. Maybe we should just archive everything we can, forget about the aliens, and concentrate on making the world a better place ourselves.

Of course if we do that, then we're left with all the mysterious stuff connected with the subject that implies that there is some clandestine alien agenda going on, and that's where things start to get really crazy. That leaves us with two choices: Forget about it and go about business as usual, or jump off the ledge into Ufoland, and maybe end up like David Vincent or Bennewitz or ( God forbid ) Greer or Vorilhon. Or maybe it's all actually even weirder than any fact or fiction we're familiar with.

 

[Jeff Davis]

There's generalized truth and absolute truth.

Since there's no absolute frame of reference, the only thing we have is our own, that we can prove, and that we trust.

If you're not going to trust anyone's "truth" what's the point in discussing it? I mean, it's like the actual leader of the galaxy in the hitchhiker's guide, who believes nothing, and generalizes everything?

Can we survive 100G acceleration? Actually, we can, briefly. Machines? Missiles do it all the time. And if there's some kind of static field whereby the acceleration is uniform across all the molecules of your body, you wouldn't even feel it.

So, sure. No absolute truth.

But saying that that means we can no nothing, or there's no truth at all, well, you might as well go sit in a corner somewhere, because that's not going to get you very far.

edit: I edited this post for the sake of respect. I toned it down a bit because it's not supposed to an attack as much as it is a real wake up call.

"Trust"is something else that collapses over time in my experience. Study and trust just do not go hand in hand. There is no "philosophical fluff" here, as much as there is long term conditioning. What there is "here" however, is too much to think about for many due to what I would call something akin to a "wishful thinking syndrome". And due to what is ultimately nothing less than energy achieving it's course by avoiding resistance, it's right back to the ever illusory nature of context bound nuts-N-bolts caveman/cavewoman "ufology" we go. Ufology<---there is NO such thing. That's the very premise in effect that leads to concurrent UFO tail chasing. "Next phase, or stage"? We all need to get real and stop leading ourselves, and worse, others more potential than us, in mythological circles. Call a spade a spade for a real change. We don't need more of the perpetuated politics of paranormal mythology. A "take care of you" false ideology, and a hierarchy of context bound relevance serves no one's best interest apart from those selling schools of entertaining thought. It merely serves to numb those too complacent already, to feel any of the real pain and strife associated with actual progress. The forward momentum of learning is not achieved via an easy downhill coast. Leave the ease of comic books and entertaining discussions to all those that will still be as befuddled tomorrow as they are in the present. Don't be afraid to dig into reality for fear of hitting something too "philosophical" to be any fun.

Come on! We all can do so much better than that which merely serves to perpetuate contemporary myth. It would be great if we could just stop projecting that we might start detecting.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Let's consider what constitutes, "the next stage" and follow that to the logical conclusion. Money might be helpful, but what would we do with it? Consider the billions of dollars available to the military around the world for detection, interception, and investigation, yet they don't seem to have all the answers. At best, we the public might be able to hire a few civilians in strategic positions around the world to observe and report UFO activity, and maybe if we got real lucky, get to the scene before the military and upload a video to the Internet.

Then what? Let's suppose that our video precipitates official disclosure and/or a worldwide increase in belief and awareness. How much would things really change? There are already plenty of us who know alien visitation is a reality, and many more who already believe it's probably true, and we have very little of material or scientific value to show for it. Our prize is a worldview that is expanded beyond that of the skeptics and the non-believers. Although that has profound personal value, and it would feel good to be able to share that with the rest of the world, we still need to put food on the table and fuel in our cars and go about the rest of our daily grind.

So unless the aliens come down and announce that they're here to cooperate in a transparent manner with our civilization by opening up an embassy with an exchange program, and helping solve all the world's problems, or conversely, engaging in open warfare, it's back to business as usual. So maybe we're actually in a situation now where doing more won't really make any difference anyway. Maybe we should just archive everything we can, forget about the aliens, and concentrate on making the world a better place ourselves.

Of course if we do that, then we're left with all the mysterious stuff connected with the subject that implies that there is some clandestine alien agenda going on, and that's where things start to get really crazy. That leaves us with two choices: Forget about it and go about business as usual, or jump off the ledge into Ufoland, and maybe end up like David Vincent or Bennewitz or ( God forbid ) Greer or Vorilhon. Or maybe it's all actually even weirder than any fact or fiction we're familiar with.

There's no big ah ha moment in all of this and I'm not very concerned if the rest of civilization comes along, that's not in my lifetime. But I'll be looking for changes in science that up our game in detection. I'm not as down in the mouth about all this as you are, not about moving forward at least. What gets me is people who intentionally mislead for whatever reason, that's when I find myself discouraged the most. Either way, tomorrow comes.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Let's consider what constitutes, "the next stage" and follow that to the logical conclusion. Money might be helpful, but what would we do with it? Consider the billions of dollars available to the military around the world for detection, interception, and investigation, yet they don't seem to have all the answers. At best, we the public might be able to hire a few civilians in strategic positions around the world to observe and report UFO activity, and maybe if we got real lucky, get to the scene before the military and upload a video to the Internet.


Then what? Let's suppose that our video precipitates official disclosure and/or a worldwide increase in belief and awareness. How much would things really change? There are already plenty of us who know alien visitation is a reality, and many more who already believe it's probably true, and we have very little of material or scientific value to show for it. Our prize is a worldview that is expanded beyond that of the skeptics and the non-believers. Although that has profound personal value, and it would feel good to be able to share that with the rest of the world, we still need to put food on the table and fuel in our cars and go about the rest of our daily grind.

So unless the aliens come down and announce that they're here to cooperate in a transparent manner with our civilization by opening up an embassy with an exchange program, and helping solve all the world's problems, or conversely, engaging in open warfare, it's back to business as usual. So maybe we're actually in a situation now where doing more won't really make any difference anyway. Maybe we should just archive everything we can, forget about the aliens, and concentrate on making the world a better place ourselves.

Of course if we do that, then we're left with all the mysterious stuff connected with the subject that implies that there is some clandestine alien agenda going on, and that's where things start to get really crazy. That leaves us with two choices: Forget about it and go about business as usual, or jump off the ledge into Ufoland, and maybe end up like David Vincent or Bennewitz or ( God forbid ) Greer or Vorilhon. Or maybe it's all actually even weirder than any fact or fiction we're familiar with.

Here we see what is the immense danger of extreme intelligence and dedication invested into what is little more than context bound myth. Yes, I am referring to @ufology with tremendous respect and compassion, as well as one poor chap that I will refer to as MR. B. MR. B was played like a fiddle due to one factor, and one factor alone. Faith.

Faith is NOT a bad thing IMO, not in the least. We all need it in an effort to stay focused and on track, BUT, if that track leads us over the inevitable cliffs of futility, crashing and dashing us upon the depression and despair rich rocky surface below, or even worse, results in a spliting the 'ol melon until it's once stable contents saturate the substratum even further below to the effect there's nothing left, it's NOT a good thing.

Here is some myth busting for which I would not mind being busted should I be inaccurate in any way.

1) Disclosure has already happened. Completely and totally. Just because several high profile globally wide spread military/industrial factions don't "go along" with the program, does not mean it has not happened. Several VERY worthy, country specific, exceptionally high ranking intelligence agencies, have in fact been openly hosting valid scrutinous scientific efforts to study the phenomena based upon credible information.

2) Most high ranking military officials within these countries are of the same precise opinion. That opinion excludes premature opinions, especially those that lend themselves to "they're here" mentalities with respect for the hypothetical possibility of ET. One of the most articulate and definitive of these officials is brigadier general José Carlos Pereira from Brazil.

3) Anyone that studies UFOs with any real level of open mindedness understands that the phenomena is NOT new. It does not begin within the last 100 years, or within the last 1000 years, or even within the last 10,000 years. The only thing that changes is what we think they are from era to era and this does include non flight based paranormal observations. One such is humanoid encounters.

4) UFOs are seen and reported in vast variances with respect to actual numbers of reports. It is a fact also that most legitimate speculative projections based on actual scientific studies support the notion that MOST, are never reported. These numbers far and away are not representative of what would be the rare or occasional appearance of those that would come here from other planets in the Universe as a result of extraordinary technological abilities. Especially when this has been happening with tremendous frequency daily for thousands upon thousands of years without one single instance of an en masse public acknowledgement of open communications with our species. This makes 100% zero sense if what we are witnessing is indeed ET visiting us.

 

[Randall]

Here we see what is the immense danger of extreme intelligence and dedication invested into what is little more than context bound myth. Yes, I am referring to @ufology with tremendous respect and compassion, as well as one poor chap that I will refer to as MR. B. MR. B was played like a fiddle due to one factor, and one factor alone. Faith.

Faith is NOT a bad thing IMO, not in the least. We all need it in an effort to stay focused and on track, BUT, if that track leads us over the inevitable cliffs of futility, crashing and dashing us upon the depression and despair rich rocky surface below, or even worse, results in a spliting the 'ol melon until it's once stable contents saturate the substratum even further below to the effect there's nothing left, it's NOT a good thing.

Here is some myth busting for which I would not mind being busted should I be inaccurate in any way.

1) Disclosure has already happened. Completely and totally. Just because several high profile globally wide spread military/industrial factions don't "go along" with the program, does not mean it has not happened. Several VERY worthy, country specific, exceptionally high ranking intelligence agencies, have in fact been openly hosting valid scrutinous scientific efforts to study the phenomena based upon credible information.

2) Most high ranking military officials within these countries are of the same precise opinion. That opinion excludes premature opinions, especially those that lend themselves to "they're here" mentalities with respect for the hypothetical possibility of ET. One of the most articulate and definitive of these officials is brigadier general José Carlos Pereira from Brazil.

3) Anyone that studies UFOs with any real level of open mindedness understands that the phenomena is NOT new. It does not begin within the last 100 years, or within the last 1000 years, or even within the last 10,000 years. The only thing that changes is what we think they are from era to era and this does include non flight based paranormal observations. One such is humanoid encounters.

4) UFOs are seen and reported in vast variances with respect to actual numbers of reports. It is a fact also that most legitimate speculative projections based on actual scientific studies support the notion that MOST, are never reported. These numbers far and away are not representative of what would be the rare or occasional appearance of those that would come here from other planets in the Universe as a result of extraordinary technological abilities. Especially when this has been happening with tremendous frequency daily for thousands upon thousands of years without one single instance of an en masse public acknowledgement of open communications with our species. This makes 100% zero sense if what we are witnessing is indeed ET visiting us.

If you think, "Disclosure has already happened. Completely and totally." then you're belief is based on far more faith than any which you claim I have, because for us to know full disclosure has happened, we would all need unfettered access to the most high-tech secure areas and uncensored records that exist. But we don't have that, and you certainly don't have that, and therefore you're simply making a faith based assumption.

On the other hand, we know from FOIA requests that many documents have been withheld from investigators and that many that have been released contain blacked out segments ( Example story here ). It is also self-evident that we don't have unfettered access to military tracking stations. I don't need to prove to you that you can't simply walk into the control room of any Space Command tracking station or NSA records vault. But if you need proof, tell you what, you go try it yourself. Don't forget to send us postcard from wherever the new Guantanamo Bay detention center is. So on the point of disclosure, you're just plain wrong.

On the issue of alien visitation itself. My belief is based on study of the subject and firsthand experience. Simply because I can't prove my experience was real to you doesn't make my belief faith based. If someone else believed me without question, then that would constitute a faith based belief ( in them ). However there are degrees of reasonableness that justify belief in others. Given the number of sightings of alien craft, it's simply not reasonable to believe all witnesses are misinformed, mistaken, or lying, especially after having seen one for myself. I'd have to be a totally self-centered egomaniac to think that of all the people on Earth, only my sighting is the real one. I don't ( which if nothing else proves I'm not a totally self centered egomaniac LOL ). So if your allusion to my faith has anything to do with my belief in alien visitation, you're just plain wrong about that too.

The only claim you can make that my belief in alien visitation is faith based is purely philosophical on the grounds that, because none of us truly know what the ultimate nature of reality is, anything we perceive to be real may or may not be what we assume it to be. But that's not relevant to this discussion. Alien visitation is as real as anything else we are able to perceive and simply because you haven't perceived it enough for you to believe it's true doesn't mean you're assumptions about the rest of us are correct.

 

[Randall]

There's no big ah ha moment in all of this and I'm not very concerned if the rest of civilization comes along, that's not in my lifetime. But I'll be looking for changes in science that up our game in detection. I'm not as down in the mouth about all this as you are, not about moving forward at least. What gets me is people who intentionally mislead for whatever reason, that's when I find myself discouraged the most. Either way, tomorrow comes.

I realize that the analysis doesn't seem all that encouraging, but I don't see it playing out any other way unless the aliens themselves make open contact, or possibly have something go massively wrong with their craft like in the sci-fi film District 9. I wish it would be all more sunshine and rainbows, but the reality of the situation just doesn't paint that kind of picture. Add to it the valid point you made about people who mislead the rest of us, and that complicates things further. Mind you however, none of this makes the subject matter itself any less fascinating to me personally.

On the issue of scientific detection. We already have that capability, but civilians don't have access to it. There was one fellow who was using his home PC to do analysis of the old space-fence feed, but then they decided to shut that down, and there are heavy licensing restrictions on civilians when it comes to building our own military grade technology. We would literally need something almost magical, like for some garage mechanic to stumble across the secret of antigravity so that civilian companies could start cheap space exploration. Maybe, just maybe, we might then have a remote chance of engaging alien craft on our own terms ( assuming they're still around by then ).

 

[marduk]

edit: I edited this post for the sake of respect. I toned it down a bit because it's not supposed to an attack as much as it is a real wake up call.

"Trust"is something else that collapses over time in my experience. Study and trust just do not go hand in hand. There is no "philosophical fluff" here, as much as there is long term conditioning. What there is "here" however, is too much to think about for many due to what I would call something akin to a "wishful thinking syndrome". And due to what is ultimately nothing less than energy achieving it's course by avoiding resistance, it's right back to the ever illusory nature of context bound nuts-N-bolts caveman/cavewoman "ufology" we go. Ufology<---there is NO such thing. That's the very premise in effect that leads to concurrent UFO tail chasing. "Next phase, or stage"? We all need to get real and stop leading ourselves, and worse, others more potential than us, in mythological circles. Call a spade a spade for a real change. We don't need more of the perpetuated politics of paranormal mythology. A "take care of you" false ideology, and a hierarchy of context bound relevance serves no one's best interest apart from those selling schools of entertaining thought. It merely serves to numb those too complacent already, to feel any of the real pain and strife associated with actual progress. The forward momentum of learning is not achieved via an easy downhill coast. Leave the ease of comic books and entertaining discussions to all those that will still be as befuddled tomorrow as they are in the present. Don't be afraid to dig into reality for fear of hitting something too "philosophical" to be any fun.

Come on! We all can do so much better than that which merely serves to perpetuate contemporary myth. It would be great if we could just stop projecting that we might start detecting.

If you're attempting to "wake me up," respectfully, give it a break. I see things clearly, it doesn't make your perspective valid to me.

I'm not claiming there is such a field, so respectfully, give that straw man argument a break, too.

I don't believe the nuts and bolts part of the phenomenon is illusory. If you choose to believe so, go right ahead, but you might as well believe that everything is an illusion, too. That way there be dragons. And you don't really believe that anyway, or you wouldn't be posting here, because to you I wouldn't exist.

I'm not promoting a mythology. I've seen these things since I was 7 or 8 on and off in my life. And what I saw were real, physical, machines able to do things that we currently can't. And they represent a real and present potential threat and real and present potential benefit. The threat is that as long as we continue to ignore them as a society they can come and go as they please doing whatever they want to whomever they want whenever they want.

The benefit is that if they can do it, so can we. The laws of physics are universal. If we can do what they can do we could end poverty, open the stars, and take mankind of this one rock that could be wiped out at a moment's notice. The potential upside is literally astronomical.

So excuse me if I'm disinterested in philosophical musings about new age baloney or the nature of knowledge or what can be trusted.

And besides, the beauty of science is that you don't have to trust it. I believe Armstrong walked on the moon. But I can also test it by pointing lasers at the Apollo sites to verify that they did (which I have also done).

 

[marduk]

Here we see what is the immense danger of extreme intelligence and dedication invested into what is little more than context bound myth. Yes, I am referring to @ufology with tremendous respect and compassion, as well as one poor chap that I will refer to as MR. B. MR. B was played like a fiddle due to one factor, and one factor alone. Faith.

Well, someone here thinks pretty highly of himself.

Faith is NOT a bad thing IMO, not in the least. We all need it in an effort to stay focused and on track, BUT, if that track leads us over the inevitable cliffs of futility, crashing and dashing us upon the depression and despair rich rocky surface below, or even worse, results in a spliting the 'ol melon until it's once stable contents saturate the substratum even further below to the effect there's nothing left, it's NOT a good thing.

Here is some myth busting for which I would not mind being busted should I be inaccurate in any way.

1) Disclosure has already happened. Completely and totally. Just because several high profile globally wide spread military/industrial factions don't "go along" with the program, does not mean it has not happened. Several VERY worthy, country specific, exceptionally high ranking intelligence agencies, have in fact been openly hosting valid scrutinous scientific efforts to study the phenomena based upon credible information.

Agreed. Here in Canada they release all reports. Hasn't helped much.

2) Most high ranking military officials within these countries are of the same precise opinion. That opinion excludes premature opinions, especially those that lend themselves to "they're here" mentalities with respect for the hypothetical possibility of ET. One of the most articulate and definitive of these officials is brigadier general José Carlos Pereira from Brazil.

I'd replace "most" with "some." I know plenty of military dudes, and almost zero of them think there's anything to this.

3) Anyone that studies UFOs with any real level of open mindedness understands that the phenomena is NOT new. It does not begin within the last 100 years, or within the last 1000 years, or even within the last 10,000 years. The only thing that changes is what we think they are from era to era and this does include non flight based paranormal observations. One such is humanoid encounters.

I'm missing your point. Our civilization is ~2-3K years old. If we ever get to be ~10K years old we might be able to do some crazy things, and might keep them going for thousands of years. So what?
Besides, more than one civilization may have visited us from "elsewhere" more than once in our history.

4) UFOs are seen and reported in vast variances with respect to actual numbers of reports. It is a fact also that most legitimate speculative projections based on actual scientific studies support the notion that MOST, are never reported.

Agreed. I've never filed a single report.

These numbers far and away are not representative of what would be the rare or occasional appearance of those that would come here from other planets in the Universe as a result of extraordinary technological abilities. Especially when this has been happening with tremendous frequency daily for thousands upon thousands of years without one single instance of an en masse public acknowledgement of open communications with our species. This makes 100% zero sense if what we are witnessing is indeed ET visiting us.

Wow, I disagree with that 100%. That's a completely anthropocentric view. And it's wrong even if it was.

Do humans go to the West Coast Trail every day? Sure. Is access controlled? Sure. Do we occasionally go there and tranquillize a bear, examine it, and put a collar on it? Sure, we do that occasionally, too. Humans have been in the region for something like 2K years.

Just because we come and go on the West Coast Trail for 2K years and have recently taken up radio collaring bears in the past decade or so doesn't mean that the vast majority of human visitation to the region has much to do with bears at all.

 

[marduk]

I realize that the analysis doesn't seem all that encouraging, but I don't see it playing out any other way unless the aliens themselves make open contact, or possibly have something go massively wrong with their craft like in the sci-fi film District 9. I wish it would be all more sunshine and rainbows, but the reality of the situation just doesn't paint that kind of picture. Add to it the valid point you made about people who mislead the rest of us, and that complicates things further. Mind you however, none of this makes the subject matter itself any less fascinating to me personally.

On the issue of scientific detection. We already have that capability, but civilians don't have access to it. There was one fellow who was using his home PC to do analysis of the old space-fence feed, but then they decided to shut that down, and there are heavy licensing restrictions on civilians when it comes to building our own military grade technology. We would literally need something almost magical, like for some garage mechanic to stumble across the secret of antigravity so that civilian companies could start cheap space exploration. Maybe, just maybe, we might then have a remote chance of engaging alien craft on our own terms ( assuming they're still around by then ).

Agreed. I see this coming down in one of two ways:
#1 whatever it is actually does something large, public, and initiates actual dialogue with society en masse.
#2 we crack how to do what they do, sally forth, and meet them on our own terms on their turf where they have to acknowledge us.

Until one of these two things happen, we're SOL. We can't make #1 happen so I recommend focusing on #2.