What Physics Owes the Counterculture

[Christopher O'Brien]

<nyt_byline>[In a current thread about "DMT" I've noticed that a couple of people have a real issue around the use of mind altering compounds. Obviously they have never experimented with this aspect of their consciousness. Don't forget that some of the most brilliant thinkers/inventors/developers in Silicon Valley were major acid heads and that some of their breakthroughs in thinking may have been due in part to their use of mind-expanding "drugs." Some of you might not like hearing this, but that's OK--until you've tried it, (under proper set and setting and with w/ guidance, of course) don't knock it. FWIW: I've probably "tripped" well over a hundred of times, go ahead sue me --chris]

How the Hippies Saved Physics: Science, Counterculture, and the Quantum Revival

Review By GEORGE JOHNSON[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif] [/FONT]</nyt_byline><nyt_text>Dr. Quantum was a cartoon rendition of Fred Alan Wolf, who resigned from the physics faculty at San Diego State College in the mid-1970s to become a New Age vaudevillian, combining motivational speaking, quantum weirdness and magic tricks in an act that opened several times for Timothy Leary. By then Wolf was running with the Fundamental Fysiks Group, a Bay Area collective driven by the notion that quantum mechanics, maybe with the help of a little LSD, could be harnessed to convey psychic powers. Concentrate hard enough and perhaps you really could levitate the Pentagon.What The Bleep Do We Know? a spaced-out concoction of quasi physics and neuroscience that appeared several years ago, promised moviegoers that they could hop between parallel universes and leap back and forth in time — if only they cast off their mental filters and experienced reality full blast. Interviews of scientists were crosscut with those of self-proclaimed mystics, and swooping in to explain the physics was Dr. Quantum, a cartoon superhero who joyfully demonstrated concepts like wave-particle duality, extra dimensions and quantum entanglement. Wiggling his eyebrows, the good doctor ominously asked, “Are we far enough down the rabbit hole yet?” All that was missing was Grace Slick wailing in the background with Jorma Kaukonen on guitar.
</nyt_text>
Rest of the New York Times review HERE: (Highly recommended)

 

[desidragonfly]

I have always thought that before people die they should experience (just once at least) a trip on some hallucinogen. It can be the most unbelievable experience of a lifetime. Now in my aging self, I realize that some minds cannot handle it.

Ancient cultures have experimented and ritually used hallucinogenics for thousands of years. The problem comes in that we as a modern selfish culture have taken sacred ancient herbals in a recreational manner and exploited it. I myself am one of them who has also tripped far more times then I can remember. I appreciate my mind bending expansion and I agree that many of the brilliant thinkers were on "stuff" but I also think we do not respect it's limits.

For instance, I once dated a man who engineered extractions for Salvia Divinorum when it was legal at that time in 46 states. These extractions were 10 to 20 x from the original potency. There is where the problem lies. We sometimes do not know we are getting deep in "poo" until it hits us. These strengths are way beyond the natural amounts intended for sacred purposes under controlled environments. The Mexican Indian Shamans who have used this particular tool for out of body healing experiences only take the original strength. Not 20 x the amount like we do.

As much as I have had a past personal love affair with hallucinogenics, I do know that in an uncontrolled situation and high dose, we may be barking up the wrong tree. This is where the trickster comes in and finds us. Portals open from our minds and leave gaping openings for whatever to climb in. It is like meditating with powerful crystals with no protection. Who knows who or what has been awakened.

There are possible consequences and side effects to everything we do. Mind expansion has had good and bad results.

This same guy I dated who is a scientist, also fooled around with creating compounds from soy isololates in his lab that crossed the hemispheres in his brain. This made him hear telepathically the thoughts of people on the other side of the campus. That was the good . . . .now for the ugly, he grew a "man boob" from dabbling in stuff he should not have been doing. I realize that we do not grow without experiments as a mankind but sometimes they make shifts in our body or consciousness that are unexpected.

My thoughts on it all is proceed with cautiousness. We do owe the counterculture like we owe our native ancestors.

So for those of you who have NOT experienced a good trip and have a sour outlook about it all, just know that many ancient herbals have a good place in history and in this present time under the right conditions. There are many consequences to any abuse of Mother Nature from curious teens opening up mind expansion gateways to the extreme of the government flying up in planes and dumping particles to change our weather patterns. There is a lot out there being manipulated. . . . . .some for the better and some for the worse.

 

[HotSoup]

The issue doesn't specifically fall on the use of mind altering concoctions, but in the understanding and expansion of safe protocol to implement said consciousness expanding substances to well informed citizens of earth. Knowledge is power in a sense which only those with the information truly wrap their minds around these thought bending experiences, blatant misuse of power, which exists in and of itself as a shield and sword and force field and many other analogies to describe choice, to choose to do this or not, to learn that or maybe another thing, not to learn something, it all begins with the choice, and if someone is not presented with the whole truth, then they are practically being lied to by people who find it easy to lie, to engross their own perception of what is right and wrong and kind to individuals who lived their whole lives with a set concept of their identity, reality, their safe zone. Go, expand, grow, but be safe and cautious and shield yourselves from negative influence. Know the risks and benefits, tell people about both and let them choose, without leaning towards either way, when leaning too far over someone with an idea, they are overshadowed by misconception, and can trip and fall and falter under your casted darkness, it blinds them, bring a light unto the scene, onto them and yourself when bringing the flame of understanding to those who have never used fire before. Mind altering substances are such a small piece of the great mystery.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Psychedelics ARE NOT for everyone. If you are at all prone to tweekiness, or have a twitchy nature, and/or deep, unresolved personal issues/pathos, they probably aren't for you. These compounds tend to shine the light of "truth" into the darkest recesses of your psyche--especially LSD. Some people can't handle the "truth" that is revealed about themselves and probably should stay in denial and away from these mind-tools. And they are mind tools, if used properly. The triptamines (psylicybin and DMT) feature logos, or a voice that manifests through the substances. The voice is hard to ignore and sometimes it will call you on your merde and make you deal w/ deep issues about yourself that you may not be ready to handle. For me, these medicines were amazingly therapeutic, but that's me. Each of us is unique and deals with all stimuli in a personal manner.

 

[tyder001]

I found an old show in the bargain bin back some time ago. I think it is called "One Step Beyond" and it actually predated the Twilight Zone. Anyway,the host who did the "Rod Serling" thing b4 Rod did actually took part in an experiment. This must have been edgy stuff in the fifties. Be something today as a matter of fact. He traveled to Brazil or somewhere deep in the jungle. He took a mind altering drug and let the camera roll. I think it was ayahuasca. Anyway, really interesting stuff.

 

[boomerang]

Chris, Thanks for sharing.

I have Bob Dylan's words "Everybody must get stoned" running through my head. The phrase is true in a multi-layered sort of way.

Consensual reality is persistent for as long as we live, but is a model or construct held together by the conscious mind. Liken "normal" consciousness to the tip of an iceberg. We are all floating on this infinite ocean, whether we know it or not. It is my belief that we will eventually encounter what lies in the depths one way or the other (get stoned) --through psychedelics, illness, pain and stress--or even death. I'm guessing that here lies both the greatest joy and also the most horrible fear. And yes, the link between psychotropic substances and true creativity is too well documented to ignore.

The closest I think I have come to being "out of body" is badly injured and on morphine. I came away from that experience convinced that self-awareness is not confined to the body and that time is merely a human function. Perhaps this is a pale ghost compared to DMT or LSD. But it was a voyage to another reality for me.

 

[Randall]

A Word of Caution,

Before reccommending that people take up hallucinogens, you might want want to go back and pre-qualify some of your statements, Otherwise certain "war on drugs" types will see it as an incitement for young people to start using drugs. Also, regardless of our personal beliefs, we need to recognize that there is a social responsibility at this time NOT to do drugs. Why? We no longer live in the good ole days when people got "high" instead of "all F'd up". Now, largely because of criminalization, we have really bad criminals, gang wars, assasinations and a whole host of nasty stuff that needs to be cleaned up. It just isn't right to contribute to that problem for the sake of our own habit or pleasure ... even if the war on drugs isn't right. By continuing to do drugs, users perpetuate support for both sides and both wrongs.

In my view, the responsible thing to do would be to flat-out quit and put them all out of business. Then work to legalize and regulate it. We as mature adults could then say we have earned the right and the responsibility that comes with using and enjoying these substances. But tell me, how likely is that to happen? How many drug users are willing to put their duty to social responsibility above getting there next fix? People are inherently selfish and hooked on instant gratification ... that is why it is more important than ever for those who have the self-discipline and moral conviction to take action and boycott recreational drugs.

Again, this is not to support continued criminalization, rather it is an important step in putting the thugs out of business and putting the power back in our hands. The result would be better safer products, less missuse and a wealth of employment and legitimate business opportunities, not to mention the enlightenment and inspiration that I agree can come from the responsible use of quality products.

j.r.

 

[boomerang]

A good read on this subject, BTW, is "Sex Drugs Einstein and Elves" by Clifford Pickover. Pickover has a fascinating take in the complex interplay between psychotropics and society.

 

[mike]

In a current thread about "DMT" I've noticed that a couple of people have a real issue around the use of mind altering compounds. Obviously they have never experimented with this aspect of their consciousness

Sorry Chris but i have to call you out on this one,
It is NOT a given that those who have an issue with mind altering compounds have never experimented.
You cannot possibly extrapolate such a fact from that data.
There will be a set of people who HAVE experimented, and are of the opinion , having been there and done that, That mind altering compounds are not useful or helpful.

Indeed in my opinion thats the crux of the whole debate, its an individual path.
There is no point telling the youth dont do drugs, esp if you come from a place of personal experience, they need to make their own minds up and make their own choices, and their opinion of the value or not of the use of recreational pharamacueticals will likely change as time goes by.
As a 45 year old man, i wouldnt take LSD, or recommend it to others
As a 25 year old man, the opposite was true.

As a 45 year old man i see no value in taking LSD, as a 25 year old man who had never tried it, the value was in finding out something i didnt know, to answer the question "whats it like" ?
It wasnt unpleasant, i didnt have any "bad" trips, but in hindsight the real value of the experience was in filling a knowledge gap, knowing what it felt like instead of guessing what i might be like.


Its not a yes/no do it/or dont equation.

But to claim as "obvious" that those who dont advocate using such compounds have never tried them, is just plain wrong.
Please dont take that as a personal attack, im refuting what is see as an obvious incorrect conclusion.
I have met a number of people who have experimented with such compounds who dont recommend others do the same.
My own view is as stated above, i think people need to decide for themselves and draw their own conclussions.
But my advice to anyone considering it, always....always employ the buddy method, that is have someone with you who is straight ie not taking the compound, who knows what dose and what type of compound you are taking, and who stays with you until the "experiment" wears off.
If its LSD, try a quarter of the dose recommended first, if you can handle that try a half dose next time, if that goes ok try a full tab/tile etc.
Dont jump in the deep end first time, and always have someone with you who knows what youve taken and how much
Never assume the dose your friend ,whose taken it before is a good one for you, since they will have built up a tolerance for the compound.

 

[trainedobserver]

My experience observing others who do such things is that those experiences aren't for everyone. Some people seem to be genetically predisposed to have substance abuse problems. Others aren't psychologically prepared and never will be for such experiences. Also, there is the problem of quality control. There is a good deal of literature out on the possible therapeutic uses of LSD but that's real LSD and not some bullshit cooked up god knows where by god knows who.

Plus you have folks like David Icke for example. He drinks Ayahuasca and then starts talking about how the world is inhabited by shape shifting reptilians. Capgras syndrome is where people think individuals have been replaced with impostors. Think about the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Did Icke gain some incredible insight into the true nature of reality taking a drug or did he damage his brain and acquire some variant of Capgras syndrome? What do we think is more probable here?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

My experience observing others who do such things is that those experiences aren't for everyone. Some people seem to be genetically predisposed to have substance abuse problems. Others aren't psychologically prepared and never will be for such experiences.

My point exactly: from my followup post: "Psychedelics ARE NOT for everyone. If you are at all prone to tweekiness, or have a twitchy nature, and/or deep, unresolved personal issues/pathos, they probably aren't for you. These compounds tend to shine the light of "truth" into the darkest recesses of your psyche--especially LSD. Some people can't handle the "truth" that is revealed about themselves and probably should stay in denial and away from these mind-tools. And they are mind tools, if used properly." And with supervision and carefully chosen set & setting, I should add.

As far as the danger, the LD 50 (50% of a lethal dose) for LSD or psilocybin is so high (pardon the pun) it has never been determined. Compared to alcohol, prescription pills, heroin and speed, psychedelics are not physically dangerous in the least. They can be the most therapeutic medicine imaginable!

As to you comment about David Icke's reptilian fixation, how do you know his thinking was due to psychedelic use? That's a bit of a leap, don't you think?

 

[Randall]

My point exactly: from my followup post: "Psychedelics ARE NOT for everyone. If you are at all prone to tweekiness, or have a twitchy nature, and/or deep, unresolved personal issues/pathos, they probably aren't for you. These compounds tend to shine the light of "truth" into the darkest recesses of your psyche--especially LSD. Some people can't handle the "truth" that is revealed about themselves and probably should stay in denial and away from these mind-tools. And they are mind tools, if used properly." And with supervision and carefully chosen set & setting, I should add.

As far as the danger, the LD 50 (50% of a lethal dose) for LSD or psilocybin is so high (pardon the pun) it has never been determined. Compared to alcohol, prescription pills, heroin and speed, psychedelics are not physically dangerous in the least. They can be the most therapeutic medicine imaginable!

As to you comment about David Icke's reptilian fixation, how do you know his thinking was due to psychedelic use? That's a bit of a leap, don't you think?

It's not just a matter of not being for those who are, "prone to tweekiness, or have a twitchy nature, and/or deep, unresolved personal issues/pathos." It's also not for people who are too young or have a sense of social responsibility not to support the violent drug thug culture that makes up the distribution and supply chain, not to mention adding to the cost to society for policing and prosecuting during times when public funds are scarce for things like health care and education. This isn't about personal enlightenment anymore. How can anyone claim to think they are in any way doing something enlightening when they know the evil that goes on ( and yes I use the word evil here unreservedly ) and the greed. It's no longer the peace, love, groovy thing anymore. Users need to get their heads out of ... well ... their heads ... break their habit and put the bad guys out of business and then take it back legally. See my original rant here.

https://www.theparacast.com/forum/t...s-Owes-the-Counterculture?p=118603#post118603

j.r.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Users need to get their heads out of ... well ... their heads ... break their habit and put the bad guys out of business and then take it back legally.

Users? Habit? You are suggesting I'm a junkie? Your ignorance about use of these compounds is understandable. FYI: True seekers who utilize these medicines do so occasionally with willful intent. I agree that these substances should not be used as party drugs by unsupervised young people or for any reason akin to mindless entertainment---like going to Disneyland. These compounds are powerful medicines that can have breathtakingly positive effects on those who utilize them wisely with guidance. As for your "just say no" mentality and your fear-based rhetoric about "bad guys" and "drug thugs," it appears that the gov't propaganda and the media lackeys have done a good job programming you with fear. What they fear is people en-mass waking up to the truth of the US govt's criminality. i.e., the CIA is one of this country's largest importers of cocaine and for years imported tons of heroin from the SE Asia "golden triangle" region, so I suggest you be careful and qualify whom you call "drug thugs" and "the bad guys." They also fear people becoming enlightened and empowered in their lives, turning off their TVs and gaining insight into the hypocrisy of the system that enables 5% of the population to control the wealth, program the media (and its mindless audience) and subvert political systems.

 

[trainedobserver]

As to you comment about David Icke's reptilian fixation, how do you know his thinking was due to psychedelic use? That's a bit of a leap, don't you think?

It's just an observation and one possible explanation. I believe his reptilian shape-shifting fantasies started after ingesting an uncontrolled and powerful drug, but I could be mistaken. If you recall, Dr. Sauder seemed to be suffering from the after effects of the same drug with a slightly different twist. Certainly the damage hypothesis seems more plausible than shape-shifting reptilian overlords and drugs speaking through buzzing in a telephone don't you think? Seriously now.

Anyone that cares to do so can do a little research and find the literature out there on the possible therapeutic uses of psychedelics. Responsible adults who know what they are doing have been eating mushrooms, peyote, and other substances for thousands of years. Irresponsible ones have been doing it as well for that matter. But you get my point. Nevertheless it is dangerous ground, not entered into lightly or without some anticipation of possibly doing oneself harm.

I personally do not think that altering the brain through chemistry is going to crack the UFO/paranormal enigma. It only complicates things by bringing in more unknowns and more variables. To paraphrase Sheldon Kopp, great cosmic insights gained during altered states often don't seem so cosmic once you have returned to a normal state.

 

[Randall]

Violent drug thug culture? We're talking psychedelics here---not meth or heroin ..."

use link in quote to view entire quoted content

Chris if you don't think it's the same guys dealing the stuff in many cases you're just plain wrong. Back in my younger daze, when I was a long haired rock guitar player I saw plenty of deals go down. You could get anything from these guys any time of day or night, and since then the gangs have moved into the city and they're always causing problems. An innocent restraunt patron was hit and killed by a bullet here not all that long ago.

To me enlightenment comes from doing what I believe is good and fair, and that's not what's going on with drug culture now. There is a huge amount of exploitation, greed, violence and drag on public resources. I just don't see supporting that as any form of "enlightenment".

There are good guys and bad guys on both sides of this issue. I've seen no reason to think you are one of the bad guys. But even the good guys need to take a stand. In the big picture we'd all be better off ( regardless of what kind of drug it is ) if everyone would just quit doing illegal drugs and get straight long enough to put the bad guys out of business and properly legalize and regulate it. I quit everything over 15 years ago and have been better off for it. I seldom even drink.

Lastly, promoting drug culture here on the forum won't bring the respect you guys want for the Paracast. The link below is just a quick starter, and don't be misled by the fact that it takes place in Mexico ... the fighting is about trade into the USA.

In Mexico, Death Toll in Drug War Hits Record:

The drug-related death toll in Mexico climbed to 15,273 in 2010, the highest casualty rate since the government launched an assault on powerful cartels in 2006, Mexican officials said. The staggering toll—higher than combat-related deaths in places like Iraq and Afghanistan—shows how Mexico is struggling to turn the tide on drug cartels that are fighting each other to control lucrative smuggling routes to the U.S .... more in link below ...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703889204576078363012731514.html

j.r.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Promoting drug culture here on the forum won't bring the respect you guys want for the Paracast.

I am NOT promoting "drug culture," don't put words in my mouth. I am advocating the mental health and well being of culture. You (of course) ignored my pointing out who the real power is behind the "drug thugs" and "drug culture:" the US gubmint. Look at the gun sales by this country to Mexican cartels, or heroin imported inside the body cavities of dead GIs, or Barry Seal and Felix Rodriguez, or the role of Zapata oil rigs or an 80% increase in heroin supply since the US invasion of Afghanistan, etc etc etc You wanna really get real about who is behind the "drug" trade? Probably not...

And let's agree to disagree, OK?

 

[Randall]

I am NOT promoting "drug culture," don't put words in my mouth. I am advocating the mental health and well being of culture. You (of course) ignored my pointing out who the real power is behind the "drug thugs" and "drug culture:" the US gubmint. Look at the gun sales by this country to Mexican cartels, or heroin imported inside the body cavities of dead GIs, or Barry Seal and Felix Rodriguez, or the role of Zapata oil rigs or an 80% increase in heroin supply since the US invasion of Afghanistan, etc etc etc You wanna really get real about who is behind the "drug" trade? Probably not...

And let's agree to disagree, OK?

Hey Chris ... you're overeacting and thinking I'm taking you out of context when that's not my intention. To be clear about that, I'll state for the record that I don't know if you personally ever used drugs, never said or even meant to imply that you're a junkie, and I never said you were knowingly promoting drug culture. But to me it does look like you are advocating the use of recreational drugs on an Internet forum. You also think that for some reason we need to disagree. I don't think we're so far apart as you think.

All I've done is add some quailfiers ( age and social responsibility ) and pointed out that there is some hypocrisy in saying that there is enlightenment to be had from supporting the illegal industry because it generates greed, corruption and violence on both sides of the issue that spill over into other countries ( you even pointed out more yourself ), and that the biggest problem with it ( in my view ) is because it's illegal. Or is that where you are saying we disagree ... do you think it should be illegal? I don't hesitate to promote the idea that it should be legal ...


Here's an old pro legalization audio clip ( audio only ) ... it's still good for a recap now and then. Nevermind that it's not about refined psychadelics like LSD ... you can hallucinate on this stuff too sometimes.

j.r.

 

[trainedobserver]

Nevermind that it's not about refined psychadelics like LSD ... you can hallucinate on this stuff too sometimes.

I think that's an old wive's tale. If anyone is hallucinating from that its because something has been added to it.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

to me it does look like you are advocating the use of recreational drugs on an Internet forum.

I am NOT "advocating the use of recreational drugs"! Re-read my frickin posts... these are medicine/compounds that can be used carefully with guidance and supervision---not party drugs. I will not state this again for a fifth time! IMO, these compounds are highly misunderstood and vilified (by the PTB) because they can potentially provide the qualified, careful user with insight into the true nature of their lives, social conditioning, mental health and the absurdity of their dis-functional culture. The PTB want to keep you in a state of waking coma---proper utilization of certain compounds peels away the curtain and exposes the hypocrisy. They can also give you great insight into your own mental and spiritual process. Just take a look at the rampant over perscription and abuse of legal drugs and show me one of them that have the amazing capabilities of psychoactive compounds. You can't, because their ain't none! That's my opinion, I'm through re-stating it and I'm done here... Send me a postcard from your next "just say no" rally, if you want.

 

[Randall]

I think that's an old wive's tale. If anyone is hallucinating from that its because something has been added to it.

Well maybe you've never tried the really good stuff from the good old days. I'll openly admit not only to having tried it, but heaven forbid ... actually inhaling it. Now we're not talking anything remotely approaching the power of LSD, and a different kind of "high" too ... not only from LSD but from today's genetically altered stink-bud industro-chem hydro-weed that's advertised as having 20 times the THC ... but doesn't get you "high" at all, it just gets you messed up. I've been clean for so long now I don't even know if the real thing exists anymore unless you go to Hawaii or Jamaica.

j.r.


---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

I am NOT "advocating the use of recreational drugs"! Re-read my frickin posts... these are medicine/compounds that can be used carefully with guidance and supervision---not party drugs. I will not state this again for a fifth time! IMO, these compounds are highly misunderstood and vilified (by the PTB) because they can potentially provide the qualified, careful user with insight into the true nature of their lives, social conditioning, mental health and the absurdity of their dis-functional culture. The PTB want to keep you in a state of waking coma---proper utilization of certain compounds peels away the curtain and exposes the hypocrisy. They can also give you great insight into your own mental and spiritual process. Just take a look at the rampant over perscription and abuse of legal drugs and show me one of them that have the amazing capabilities of psychoactive compounds. You can't, because their ain't none! That's my opinion, I'm through re-stating it and I'm done here... Send me a postcard from your next "just say no" rally, if you want.

Chris ... sorry to tell you, but most of the time these drugs aren't being used for, "social conditioning and mental health" in a therpeutic manner. They are mostly used informally in a non-therapeutic manner for personal pleasure. And if people get some therapeutic benefit from them too, so much the better. I don't disagree that there is a lot of anti-drug propoganda. I do agree with the substance of what you are saying and the intent that I believe you mean it to be taken. However what I don't understand is why you don't see any validity in the points I made. They make sense and they cant hurt anyone ... what is your problem with it? And lastly, why would I attend a "Just Say No Rally" when I advocate legalization?

j.r.