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Way to settle the Zeta Riticuli debate forever?


Hoffmeister

There is no spoon
Hi guys.
I recently saw a documentary, i think it was "are we alone in the universe" from channel 4 England (you can find it on 4OD or quicksilverscreen.com etc) that showed the very recent advances in technology that now allow us to look at stars very far away and tell how many planets they have around them, and whether any of these planets fit into what I think they called the green belt:- the thin area in which a planet can exist so that it is able to support life. By this i mean not too far away to be cold, and not too close to be hot.
A recent newspaper article i read comented on this and said that scientists are now using this data as a kind of cosmic 'Yellow pages' for SETI, so that instead of randomly scanning the sky, they can point the dishes at planets which they know have the potential for life.

Now surely one way to settle the Zeta riticuli theory for good would be for the scientists to use the new advancement in technology (which is basically done by detecting the gravity wobbles of the planets around the stars) to see if there are any planets around the supposed stars that the aliens that abducted Barney and Betty Hill.
Furthermore, we could get our old friend (or enemy depending on where you stand) Seth Shostak to point his dishes directly at them to see if we get any signals.
Its seems to me that this would be one way to settle the debate once and forall. Is it Zeta Riticuli or Zeta Ridiculi? Is Barney and Betty Hills story based on fact or is it as made up as Barney and Betty Rubble?

Personally i'm gunning for Stantons team as i think he's such a great character, but on the other hand I think Seths kind of quirky too.

NB: i think the documentary was the channel 4 one, but anyway if you look on the net you can find info on how they can check stars for habitable planets now
 
Seth Poostack has said they've pointed at the Zeta region many times and never received a signal.

In time, we'll be able to detect smaller and smaller planets and this could help.
 
ZR is a binary system though. I don't know if our detection systems are sophisticated enough to take that into account just yet.
 
Also though they are binaries they are still seperated by something like 9000 AU.
Still I would at least like to see seti aimed that way, though I dont really think
they will find anything.

Peace,

Mark
 
Seth Poostack has said they've pointed at the Zeta region many times and never received a signal.

In time, we'll be able to detect smaller and smaller planets and this could help.

Actually from what I have read and watched, we are now very capable of detecting quite small planets. Apparently most of the stars that they are now pointing at using this technology appear to have planets around them, and they have also found atleast 1 earth-like planet (with regards to distance from sun and size etc).

This is encouraging basically every main stream scientist to believe that there is other life out there. Until very recently, they have been saying that there must be life out there simply because of the number of stars out there even though we arent sure what percentage have their own planetery systems. But now they are discovering that almost all of the stars they point at appear to have planets around them, and not only that, they are able to tell the distance from their sun, the size and in some cases what materials they are mostly made up of.

Now its been about 2 months since i saw the doc and read the articles (i will try to find them when i get timne, i think they were at www.timesonline.co.uk or the bbc news site) so i can't exactly quote how many solar systems they have found but memory tells me it was something like 60 or so (its a slow process for them to do it) and they have found 1 definate earth-like planet.

So whilst i need to research the subject a little harder, it would seem apparent that they should just be able to check out the Zeta system and see if there is anything there.
It wouldn't give proof one way or the other since if there is a planet there of potential habitable status, it doesnt neccesarily mean there are aliens on it, and if there isnt anything there I suppose we cant guarentee the technology is 100% foolproof but either way it would be interesting to find out and would be a great way of converging modern mainstream science with the 'percieved' less scientific methods of Ufology.

And thats just it in my opinion, I know that Seth and his 'SETI cultists' are generally hated in the UFO community but I honestly don't see why. He is trying to find the Aliens just like Stanton & co, and although his methods are different and probably a bit naive, if there is even a small percentage of it working we might as well have it there rather than not.
Whilst the UFO community spends its whole time arguing with Seth, it should take the moral high ground and just accept that he is trying to do it his way, and we are doing it our way.

In Ufology, 99% of the stuff going round is complete nonsense. We have idiots like Dr Greer running round talking about Tesla creating zero point energy, we have little old ladies claiming that UFO's turn up outside her house whenever she wants them to, we have mexican CGI companies putting out fakes just to boost their ego's for their own CGI creating ability, and on top of that we have the US and other governments doing everything they can to hide any of the real evidence, so you can't really blame Seth for not believing in UFO's.

Anyway, i'm having a bit of a rant now and this topic has turned out to be more of a debate than anything for the question bank, but it would be interesting to get these scientist to see if there are any planets in the Zeta region. When i get time i'll try to dig out the articles I mentioned.
 
Seth Poostack has said they've pointed at the Zeta region many times and never received a signal.

In time, we'll be able to detect smaller and smaller planets and this could help.

I've always had a problem with the SETI folks... why are we sure at all that if someone were there they'd be using radio. Seems very anthropomorphic.

There's lots of other potential ways to transmit and receive information... like optically (lasers), using gravity waves, neutrinos, even the "spooky action at a distance" with QM. And lots, I'm sure, that we haven't even thought of.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't take a look in the radio spectrum to check it out, but as Friedman says "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."
 
I agree. I think its very unlikely that we'll pick anything up. A civilization probably would use radio waves for communication for a maximum of 200 years IMO, and the chances of any civilizations being not only within that two hundred year window, but also to be near enough to us and to have a sufficiently large listening dish set up seems to me to be very small. But like I said, even if its just a 0.0001% chance of them discovering anything, we might as well have them there.

The general public are more open to SETI, and make less of a mockery of them than the UFO crew because radio waves are something tangible that they understand. Its for that reason that I think the Ufologists should try and bring themselves closer to SETI whilst shedding themselves of the nutjobs like 'Dr "I have seen grown men weep over the subject" Greer' so that gradually over time it becomes less of a laughed at subject and perhaps will then get more people coming forward (without fear of ridicule), more rich people (like Paul Allen) helping to invest in studies and generally better press in the media.

Doing all of this, and also somehow coming up with a measurable way of looking for UFO's which is based upon science that the masses understand (something which would probably require the backing of someone rich like Paul Allen) is probably the most likely way people will ever get to know the truth of the subject.

Further to this, someone will have to convince Seth that we're all on the same side, and despite the fact that he would lose his job if we discovered proof of UFO's, the fact that it would be the biggest discovery in human history would just about make up for this.
 
I've always had a problem with the SETI folks... why are we sure at all that if someone were there they'd be using radio. Seems very anthropomorphic.
We, doesn't mean me. Ew. But to be fair....

I guess they think being anthropomorphic is good when dealing with ETs. It can be useful, unless you forget you're doing it.

Radio waves is a possibility, not the only one. I've not heard Seti scientists deny that there are other possibilities. They think radio waves is currently the best bet.

Stanton Friedman calls SETI Silly Effort To Investigate. I don't disagree.
 
Seti the only thing it will ever find or hear, Is the radio station that plays in the background of there office:)
 
I would like to know more if you wouldnt mind:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal
The Wow! signal was a strong, narrowband radio signal detected by Dr. Jerry R. Ehman on August 15, 1977, while working on a SETI project at the Big Ear radio telescope of the Ohio State University. The signal bore expected hallmarks of potential non-terrestrial and non-solar system origin. It lasted for 72 seconds, the full duration Big Ear observed it, but has not been detected again. It has been the focus of attention in the mainstream media when talking about SETI results.

Amazed at how closely the signal matched the expected signature of an interstellar signal in the antenna used, Ehman circled the signal on the computer printout and wrote the comment "Wow!" on its side. This comment became the name of the signal.
 
I've always had a problem with the SETI folks... why are we sure at all that if someone were there they'd be using radio. Seems very anthropomorphic.

There's lots of other potential ways to transmit and receive information... like optically (lasers), using gravity waves, neutrinos, even the "spooky action at a distance" with QM. And lots, I'm sure, that we haven't even thought of.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't take a look in the radio spectrum to check it out, but as Friedman says "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."
Even if we did eventually detect artificially generated radio signals. There is no guarantee that the culture who produced them would still be out there.
 
Do radio waves travel forever in space? I mean if a culture a kagillion years ago used radio waves to transmit a signal, would we just now be receiving it?

If yes, then why haven't we received anything at all from randomly pointing the receiver? I always assumed it's the needle in haystack thing but if signals travel forever and the universe is full of life, wouldn't we have been inundated with random signals from all around from all throughout time?
 
Okay, first of all I will try and answer some of the questions that people have been asking here.
I am no expert on SETI but do know a little about it. Second of all, I feel we have digressed from the main topic which is actually that we can now tell whether stars have habitable planets around them and that this technology should be used to see if there is anything around Zeta.
I am currently composing some information from a collection of articles just to highlight this so you guys know what i'm on about, but you should also watch the documentary I mentioned in the first post as its great and explains it well.
I am going to post this info I have collated soon but it takes me a little while as I get up at 6am, go to my job as a recruitment manager, then go to the gym at 7pm, then work on my ebay business for the rest of the night (while listening to the paracast) so it may take me a day or two to get it done.

Anyway, regarding the questions so far:
1. About the wow incident: i dont know if i am thinking of the exact same one as you but I know saw an article with the Seti founder (i forget his name now but he's the dude with the equation that says there are millions of aliens out there) saying he has had many wow moments, the first one turned out to be a signal bouncing off a plane (or bouncing off the atmosphere onto a plane or something)

2. Do radio waves travel for ever in space? Again I am no expert but have read a lot about it and well basically yes they do travel forever (just as light does) but the further they go, the more the information within them dissipates (horribly unscientifically written but i am trying to explain in laymans terms). Someone worked out that even if the radio waves got to one of our nearest stars, they would need a ridiculously large satelite dish/array to pick it up, i dont remember the exact size but we are talking many many times bigger than SETI's and even then they would have to be pointing in the right direction at the right time. Also, we havent been inundated with singals because the waves only travel at the speed of light, and therefore even if our nearest star was transmitting it would take (from memory) 36 light years to get here. Most stars are much further away and the ones that are producing radio signals could be billions of light years away for all we know.

Anyway, I am going to work on composing some info on how we can see planets.... and particularly exciting is the fact that in 2012 or 2015 (i forget) we are going to be putting a telescope in orbit that will literally let us be able to see the planets around stars that are something like 150 light years (again from memory) away, AND detect whether there is life on it.
I think that will pretty much conclude the Zeta riticuli debate even if we can't do it now, which i believe we can
 
oh, and i should say that the more power used in the source of the radio waves, the more easily someone would be able to pick it up (seems obvious) and from a farther distance.
Our first transmission as I'm sure you all know from watching the film Contact was Hitler at the Olympic games and this would have been a very weak transmission. Even today if we want people to hear us I think we would need a specifically designed transmitter blasting out at a really high output. But then again, all of what I am saying is just from what I have read other mainstream scientists saying so don't take my word as gospel.
 
Yes, the radio signals will expand forever... but the further they go the more they diminish in signal strength. Think of a balloon. The bigger it gets inflated, the thinner (and weaker) it gets.

As for pointing it in any random direction, you also have to consider the length of time a civilization will be putting out radio signals. For example, a civilization somewhere in the so-called "Galactic Habitable Zone" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone#Galactic_habitable_zone) could be as far as 50K light years from earth, meaning that it would take 50,000 years for the signal to reach us. It would expand out in a sphere from the civilization's center and reach us when that sphere was 50,000 light years wide.

However, if you think of that sphere as an eggshell, the thickness of the wall of the sphere would be the length of time the civilization was transmitting signals. Presumably this wouldn't last forever -- civilizations may outgrow using radio or simply die off. I've heard current estimates that mankind would transmit radio signals for about 200ish years. This means that that sphere would be 50,000 light years wide but perhaps only 200 light years thick.

So our civilization, which only recently acquired the ability to receive the signals would have to be around and listening exactly 50,000 years +- 200 years from the time the ET civilization sent it. That's a statistically unlikely event even if you assume a large number of ET civilizations.
 
Haha, listen to the guy above, his explanations are far better than my un-technical ramblings. Ah well, what can i say, its late and i'm tired....:D
 
So I think some of this data is a little out of date as its mostly from about a year ago, and we are finding new planets every day. But here is a few out takes from one article:

"Earth-like planets may have formed around most of the Milky Way’s Sun-like stars, according to research that shortens the odds on the discovery of extra-terrestrial life.
Observations using Nasa’s Spitzer Space Telescope have found that at least 20 per cent — and perhaps as many as 60 per cent — of our galaxy’s Sun-like stars are good candidates for having rocky planets of the sort that can harbour life.
The findings offer further evidence suggesting that such worlds may be common in the galaxy, which would greatly enhance the prospects for finding one on which life has developed.
Last week another team of astronomers announced the discovery of a star system about 5,000 light years from Earth that looks like a “scale model” of our own Solar System.
The star system — 5,000 light years away — boasts smaller versions of the Sun, Jupiter and Saturn and it is possible that smaller, rocky planets like Earth and Mars could be orbiting closer in.
The discovery suggests that solar systems like ours, with gas giants on the outside and Earth-like worlds nearer the central star, may be common in the Milky Way."

For more info on the new super telecopse visit:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1719516.ece

And for an older article on one of the first earthlike planets found check:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1701373.ece

And again, the point being that if we can see planets 1000's of light years away, lets see whats at Zeta in an effort to converge mainstream science, and Ufology.... the only problem is, i'm not sure who it is in charge of the telescopes that we need to ask..... maybe i'll email Seth and see if he knows.
 
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