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Trained Observer 8/24/14 Robert Sheaffer guest - my comment


Creepy Green Light

Paranormal Adept
I'm just now listening to the 8/24/14 show w/ Robert Sheaffer. He brings up a good point when he says "Yeah, what exactly is a 'trained observer'?" I'll just speak from my own experience;

I spent 5 years as a U.S. Navy Combat Aircrewman onboard Lockheed P-3C Orions (anti submarine warfare planes). Each P-3C had one inflight ordnanceman/inflight cameraman (which was me). That position sits at crew station nine which is in the rear of the plane on the starboard side and the seat faces backwards. That seat and the one adjacent to it (crew station 10) are also referred to as the "aft observer" seats. So if it's not a full antisubmarine warfare crew going out (which is a crew of 12 guys) - for an ASW mission - we can fly with less guys. The minimum crew is 4. And it's mandated that someone will always be designated as the "aft observer". This person has all kinds of duties - watching engine starts, checking for engine fires, checking the hydraulic pumps and internal electronic racks, setting the radar, etc. etc.

At no point in ANY of my training, which included 6 months in Millington, TN - 2 months in Pensacola, FL & 9 mos in Jacksonville, FL were we ever trained to "observe". We were trained to look for specific things like oil leaks, engine fire, submarine periscopes etc. But in no way, shape or form were we ever trained on celestial objects or random stuff in our skies. We got trained on how to determine (at night) if another aircraft was coming towards you or going away from you & thats about it. I had over 2000 hours logged in the P-3C and I sat most of those hours in the "observer seat". I wouldn't be anymore qualified to determine what a streak of light was going across the night sky anymore than the cook that prepared my breakfast before my mission.

I'm not sure where this misnomer came from that if you are in the military (or fly in the military) that some how you are the end all answer when it comes to determining what each & every craft or ball of light is in the sky.

Maybe others that flew in the military have a different story to tell but this is my experience.
 
I'm just now listening to the 8/24/14 show w/ Robert Sheaffer. He brings up a good point when he says "Yeah, what exactly is a 'trained observer'?" I'll just speak from my own experience;

I spent 5 years as a U.S. Navy Combat Aircrewman onboard Lockheed P-3C Orions (anti submarine warfare planes). Each P-3C had one inflight ordnanceman/inflight cameraman (which was me). That position sits at crew station nine which is in the rear of the plane on the starboard side and the seat faces backwards. That seat and the one adjacent to it (crew station 10) are also referred to as the "aft observer" seats. So if it's not a full antisubmarine warfare crew going out (which is a crew of 12 guys) - for an ASW mission - we can fly with less guys. The minimum crew is 4. And it's mandated that someone will always be designated as the "aft observer". This person has all kinds of duties - watching engine starts, checking for engine fires, checking the hydraulic pumps and internal electronic racks, setting the radar, etc. etc.

At no point in ANY of my training, which included 6 months in Millington, TN - 2 months in Pensacola, FL & 9 mos in Jacksonville, FL were we ever trained to "observe". We were trained to look for specific things like oil leaks, engine fire, submarine periscopes etc. But in no way, shape or form were we ever trained on celestial objects or random stuff in our skies. We got trained on how to determine (at night) if another aircraft was coming towards you or going away from you & thats about it. I had over 2000 hours logged in the P-3C and I sat most of those hours in the "observer seat". I wouldn't be anymore qualified to determine what a streak of light was going across the night sky anymore than the cook that prepared my breakfast before my mission.

I'm not sure where this misnomer came from that if you are in the military (or fly in the military) that some how you are the end all answer when it comes to determining what each & every craft or ball of light is in the sky.

Maybe others that flew in the military have a different story to tell but this is my experience.

Just Google it. There are trained to observers in various fields. The question is whether or not the field the observer is trained in is relevant to the observation made. In ufology, certain kinds of observers, like meteorologists, astronomers, airport control tower observers, military plane spotters, and such would have more relevant training. When we had the USI distance learning course, there was a section on meteorology and cloud identification, basic backyard astronomy, an aviation history section, and some field assignments that included a bit of each, like watching a meteor shower, visiting local airports and airshows, etc. to observe and distinguish mundane objects in the sky.

The thing to remember about skeptics is that these sorts of criticisms are meant to do little more than sew seeds of doubt rather than act as legitimate criticisms. In today's world, the vast majority of people with normal vision can discern the difference between things without the need for any special training. So if a large silent metallic orb streaks in and hovers over their cul-de-sac during the day, is observed by several people, and then instantly zooms off again, they don't need any "special training" to know it was something out of the ordinary.


Grant it, the term might also be used in the reverse fashion to imply a higher standard of reliability than is deserved. So again, the question is whether or not the training is relevant to the observation made. Ultimately to me it no longer makes much difference. The question has already been settled in my mind. Alien visitation is real. What's the next step?
 
Just Google it. There are trained to observers in various fields. The question is whether or not the field the observer is trained in is relevant to the observation made. In ufology, certain kinds of observers, like meteorologists, astronomers, airport control tower observers, military plane spotters, and such would have more relevant training. When we had the USI distance learning course, there was a section on meteorology and cloud identification, basic backyard astronomy, an aviation history section, and some field assignments that included a bit of each, like watching a meteor shower, visiting local airports and airshows, etc. to observe and distinguish mundane objects in the sky.

The thing to remember about skeptics is that these sorts of criticisms are meant to do little more than sew seeds of doubt rather than act as legitimate criticisms. In today's world, the vast majority of people with normal vision can discern the difference between things without the need for any special training. So if a large silent metallic orb streaks in and hovers over their cul-de-sac during the day, is observed by several people, and then instantly zooms off again, they don't need any "special training" to know it was something out of the ordinary.


Grant it, the term might also be used in the reverse fashion to imply a higher standard of reliability than is deserved. So again, the question is whether or not the training is relevant to the observation made. Ultimately to me it no longer makes much difference. The question has already been settled in my mind. Alien visitation is real. What's the next step?
I was going to add to my original message that if I, being a Naval Aviator, had no "observation training" (but still flew constantly and had all those logged hours under my belt) then just think how much worse off the Navy cook was. I mean, imagine if two Navy cooks or two Navy secretaries got off work at 2am and spotted something in the sky. A lot of pro-UFO people would spin it to not necessarily mention their jobs - but they would say something like "Two military personnel" or "two U.S. Navy sailors" observed a strange object hovering outside their base. Then someone like James Fox would say "These guys are in the military. They are trained to look for these types of things and they are professional observers." Where meanwhile, they could be cooks or secretaries and would be the least qualified people (military or civilian) to be determining what the flying object was that they saw.

So if I flew during my 5 years and I was no expert on what's in the nights skies - I'm still lightyears ahead of other personnel that did not have a job involving flying.
 
This is one case that got my attention because of the status of the 'observer'.

Kelly Johnson

And I like coincidence too: he also was working at Lockheed when the P-3 Orion was designed! (it is a modified Constellation* series that Johnson was designer of )

*Lockheed Constellation - Wikipedia

Brilliant designer just look at his list of projects:

  • Model 9D Orion, First airliner with retractable landing gear, faster than any known military aircraft of the time. Won 1937 Harmon Trophy.
  • Model 10 Electra, flown by Amelia Earhart on her ill-fated around-the-world expedition in 1937. First aircraft to perform round trip commercial flight over Atlantic Ocean.
  • Model 12 Electra Junior, upgraded version of Model 10. Used to prove wing deicing using engine exhaust, as well as testing of twin engine aircraft aboard aircraft carriers. Used by British intelligence to spy on pre-war Nazi Germany. Won 1937 Bendix Trophy.
  • Model 14 Super Electra Upgrade variant of Model 10. In 1938, completed world record flight of 15,441 mi (24,850 km).
  • Model 18 Lodestar, competitor to famous DC-3. Similar operating cost, superior performance, smaller passenger capacity
  • PV-1 Ventura, militarized version of Model 18. Would often lead B-24 bomber formations, due to being equipped with its own search radar unit. Used in both Pacific and European theater, including bombing raids on Germany, and hunting enemy submarines.
  • P-38 Lightning, the first U.S. fighter to exceed 400 mph (640 km/h; 350 kn),[citation needed] and the aircraft which killed Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Holds record for longest interception mission of World War II.
  • Constellation family, first family of pressurized airliners. Used in various military roles, including transporting President Eisenhower, and General MacArthur.
    • L-049 Constellation First version of Constellation, first four engine aircraft produced by Lockheed. Upon its first flight, the chief test pilot remarked, "This machine works so well that you don't need me anymore!"
      • L-149 Constellation, designation given to L-049 aircraft refitted with a larger fuel capacity
      • C-69 Constellation, military transport version of the Constellation. Only one served during World War II, as a troop and VIP carrier.
      • L-649 Constellation, improved L-049 which included overhead sleeping berth, as well as a removable cargo bay, the "Speedpak".
        • L-749 Constellation, improved L-649. Larger fuel capacity, strengthened landing gear, and eventually weather radar.
          • C-121/R7O/R7V Constellation, military version of L-749. Used as radar warning AWACS aircraft. President Dwight Eisenhower and General Douglas MacArthur both used the C-121A as their personal VIP transports. Also used as a freighter.
          • PO-1W/WV-1 Warning Star, airborne early warning (AEW) variant of the C-121, used to supplement the Distant Early Warning Line. EC-121s were also used for intelligence gathering.
          • L-1049 Super Constellation, stretched version of the Constellation, modified into several military variants.
              • PO-2W/WV-2/WV-3/EC-121 Warning Star. AEW variant, used along with picket ships to warn of incoming Soviet bomber attacks.
              • YC-121F/R7V-2 Constellation, experimental turboprop military transport.
            • L-1649 Starliner, last model of the Lockheed Constellation line. Powered by four Wright R-3350 TurboCompound engines.
  • F-80 Shooting Star, the first successful American jet fighter. First west-to-east Atlantic crossing by single-engined jet.
  • T-33 and TV-2, trainer versions of F-80.
  • P2V Neptune, anti-submarine bomber. Temporarily kept aboard aircraft carriers to use as a stop gap, one use, nuclear bomber. Incapable of landing on aircraft carrier after launch.
  • XF-90, prototype penetration fighter. First USAF jet with an afterburner and the first Lockheed jet to fly supersonic.
  • F-94 Starfire, first operational USAF fighter equipped with an afterburner and the first jet-powered all-weather fighter to enter combat.
  • X-7, testbed for ramjet engines and missile guidance technology. Dropped from B-52 and assisted by rocket on initial flight phase, exceeded Mach 4.
  • F-104 Starfighter, first Mach 2 fighter to enter service. With its GE J79 engine, it won the 1958 Collier Trophy for its Lockheed and GE technical achievement.
  • F-117A Nighthawk, first operational stealth aircraft.
  • C-130 Hercules, turboprop military transport. Longest continuous production run of any military aircraft in history. Over 40 models serving in at least 60 nations.
  • U-2, high altitude intelligence gathering aircraft.
  • Blackbird family: A-12, YF-12, SR-71, M-21, and D-21. First family of operational Mach 3 aircraft. Composed almost entirely of titanium. The CIA M-21 was capable of launching a Mach 3 drone, known as the D-21. The YF-12 interceptor version was capable of launching a Mach 4 version of the AIM-47 Falcon missile, capable of hitting bombers flying at extremely low altitude. Johnson's second Collier Trophy (1963).
  • JetStar/C-140, first dedicated business jet to enter service.

Literally aviation royalty.
 
This is one case that got my attention because of the status of the 'observer'.

Kelly Johnson

And I like coincidence too: he also was working at Lockheed when the P-3 Orion was designed! (it is a modified Constellation* series that Johnson was designer of )

*Lockheed Constellation - Wikipedia

Brilliant designer just look at his list of projects:

  • Model 9D Orion, First airliner with retractable landing gear, faster than any known military aircraft of the time. Won 1937 Harmon Trophy.
  • Model 10 Electra, flown by Amelia Earhart on her ill-fated around-the-world expedition in 1937. First aircraft to perform round trip commercial flight over Atlantic Ocean.
  • Model 12 Electra Junior, upgraded version of Model 10. Used to prove wing deicing using engine exhaust, as well as testing of twin engine aircraft aboard aircraft carriers. Used by British intelligence to spy on pre-war Nazi Germany. Won 1937 Bendix Trophy.
  • Model 14 Super Electra Upgrade variant of Model 10. In 1938, completed world record flight of 15,441 mi (24,850 km).
  • Model 18 Lodestar, competitor to famous DC-3. Similar operating cost, superior performance, smaller passenger capacity
  • PV-1 Ventura, militarized version of Model 18. Would often lead B-24 bomber formations, due to being equipped with its own search radar unit. Used in both Pacific and European theater, including bombing raids on Germany, and hunting enemy submarines.
  • P-38 Lightning, the first U.S. fighter to exceed 400 mph (640 km/h; 350 kn),[citation needed] and the aircraft which killed Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Holds record for longest interception mission of World War II.
  • Constellation family, first family of pressurized airliners. Used in various military roles, including transporting President Eisenhower, and General MacArthur.
    • L-049 Constellation First version of Constellation, first four engine aircraft produced by Lockheed. Upon its first flight, the chief test pilot remarked, "This machine works so well that you don't need me anymore!"
      • L-149 Constellation, designation given to L-049 aircraft refitted with a larger fuel capacity
      • C-69 Constellation, military transport version of the Constellation. Only one served during World War II, as a troop and VIP carrier.
      • L-649 Constellation, improved L-049 which included overhead sleeping berth, as well as a removable cargo bay, the "Speedpak".
        • L-749 Constellation, improved L-649. Larger fuel capacity, strengthened landing gear, and eventually weather radar.
          • C-121/R7O/R7V Constellation, military version of L-749. Used as radar warning AWACS aircraft. President Dwight Eisenhower and General Douglas MacArthur both used the C-121A as their personal VIP transports. Also used as a freighter.
          • PO-1W/WV-1 Warning Star, airborne early warning (AEW) variant of the C-121, used to supplement the Distant Early Warning Line. EC-121s were also used for intelligence gathering.
          • L-1049 Super Constellation, stretched version of the Constellation, modified into several military variants.
              • PO-2W/WV-2/WV-3/EC-121 Warning Star. AEW variant, used along with picket ships to warn of incoming Soviet bomber attacks.
              • YC-121F/R7V-2 Constellation, experimental turboprop military transport.
            • L-1649 Starliner, last model of the Lockheed Constellation line. Powered by four Wright R-3350 TurboCompound engines.
  • F-80 Shooting Star, the first successful American jet fighter. First west-to-east Atlantic crossing by single-engined jet.
  • T-33 and TV-2, trainer versions of F-80.
  • P2V Neptune, anti-submarine bomber. Temporarily kept aboard aircraft carriers to use as a stop gap, one use, nuclear bomber. Incapable of landing on aircraft carrier after launch.
  • XF-90, prototype penetration fighter. First USAF jet with an afterburner and the first Lockheed jet to fly supersonic.
  • F-94 Starfire, first operational USAF fighter equipped with an afterburner and the first jet-powered all-weather fighter to enter combat.
  • X-7, testbed for ramjet engines and missile guidance technology. Dropped from B-52 and assisted by rocket on initial flight phase, exceeded Mach 4.
  • F-104 Starfighter, first Mach 2 fighter to enter service. With its GE J79 engine, it won the 1958 Collier Trophy for its Lockheed and GE technical achievement.
  • F-117A Nighthawk, first operational stealth aircraft.
  • C-130 Hercules, turboprop military transport. Longest continuous production run of any military aircraft in history. Over 40 models serving in at least 60 nations.
  • U-2, high altitude intelligence gathering aircraft.
  • Blackbird family: A-12, YF-12, SR-71, M-21, and D-21. First family of operational Mach 3 aircraft. Composed almost entirely of titanium. The CIA M-21 was capable of launching a Mach 3 drone, known as the D-21. The YF-12 interceptor version was capable of launching a Mach 4 version of the AIM-47 Falcon missile, capable of hitting bombers flying at extremely low altitude. Johnson's second Collier Trophy (1963).
  • JetStar/C-140, first dedicated business jet to enter service.

Literally aviation royalty.
Thank you for sharing. I never heard of this case before :)
 
Keep in mind this guy is a pilot so therefore a "trained observer". He thinks the 3 flares on balloons is a solid craft - as well as Bill Birnes....I'm not laughing at the guy calling him an idiot - but just proves the point that whether you are a pilot or a dog walker - we are all capable of misinterpreting things.

 
Keep in mind this guy is a pilot so therefore a "trained observer". He thinks the 3 flares on balloons is a solid craft - as well as Bill Birnes....I'm not laughing at the guy calling him an idiot - but just proves the point that whether you are a pilot or a dog walker - we are all capable of misinterpreting things.
There's another explanation too. Unless you play along with the alien angle you don't get to be on TV. I've been in this situation. I said I didn't think the phenomenon was alien, and consequently my interview wasn't used. Birnes isn't exactly camera shy either.
 
Thank you for sharing. I never heard of this case before :)


Here is my version/impression of what I think Johnson saw, or at least what I understood from his description:

Saucer.png




Johnson said the UFO was an ellipse* and had a fineness ratio of 1 unit along the minor axis to 7 units on the major axis or possibly 1:10 .

*fineness ratio ellipse:
512px-Elps-slr.svg.png







Here is his sketch: (Only the one on top of the scanned page , the lower one is of a previous sighting)

MAXW-PBB19-1713_screen.jpg






and his description:

MAXW-PBB19-1711_screen.jpg


There is a copy of Blue Book reports here:

Blue Book Archive

where the scans I used are from also.
 
I now think it was a captured German plane he saw or a modified version of it:


Re sightings from the little I have read so far I think there is a good chance that on of the UFO's was a Horton HO - IX (see diagram) I was alerted to this because when I looked up Jack Northrop it said that he may have been shown a captured one of another type (VI) but he may have seen the plans for the IX.

Unlike the early US flying wings I believe the HO-IX was a Rocket/Jet engine and may explain the 'afterburning' he described seeing. My understanding is This would not be present with a 'piston'/propeller engine.

"Ho VI "Flying Parabola" - an extremely-high-aspect-ratio test- only glider. [After the war, the Ho VI was shipped to Northrop for analysis]. "

hortens.jpg



above HO XI fifth from top, far right

horten_ho-9.gif

above HO-IX

I don't think it was sent to the museum like it says here:

"Ho IX - 1944 - the first combat-intended Horten design, a jet powered [Junkers Jumo 004B's], with metal frame and plywood exterior [due to wartime shortages]. First flew in January 1945, but never in combat. When the Allies overran the factory, the almost-completed Ho IX V3 [third in the series - this plane was also known as the "Gotha Go 229"] was shipped back to the Air and Space Museum."


But if it was I reckon they had a more advanced version maybe a version 2

Here is a really informative page I came across:

The Horten Ho 229 (often erroneously called Gotha Go 229)

but seems to be no mention of Johnson sighting.

He was working for a different company so may not have had access.
 
I now think it was a captured German plane he saw or a modified version of it:


Re sightings from the little I have read so far I think there is a good chance that on of the UFO's was a Horton HO - IX (see diagram) I was alerted to this because when I looked up Jack Northrop it said that he may have been shown a captured one of another type (VI) but he may have seen the plans for the IX.

Unlike the early US flying wings I believe the HO-IX was a Rocket/Jet engine and may explain the 'afterburning' he described seeing. My understanding is This would not be present with a 'piston'/propeller engine.

"Ho VI "Flying Parabola" - an extremely-high-aspect-ratio test- only glider. [After the war, the Ho VI was shipped to Northrop for analysis]. "

hortens.jpg



above HO XI fifth from top, far right

horten_ho-9.gif

above HO-IX

I don't think it was sent to the museum like it says here:

"Ho IX - 1944 - the first combat-intended Horten design, a jet powered [Junkers Jumo 004B's], with metal frame and plywood exterior [due to wartime shortages]. First flew in January 1945, but never in combat. When the Allies overran the factory, the almost-completed Ho IX V3 [third in the series - this plane was also known as the "Gotha Go 229"] was shipped back to the Air and Space Museum."


But if it was I reckon they had a more advanced version maybe a version 2

Here is a really informative page I came across:

The Horten Ho 229 (often erroneously called Gotha Go 229)

but seems to be no mention of Johnson sighting.

He was working for a different company so may not have had access.
That's what I think as well. I mean the odds have to be astronomical of having what Arnold depicted as one of the craft, just so happening to look exactly like that Ho German plane. I mean, they are damn near identical, right?
 
Just found this from 1928:

800px-Westland_Pterodactyl_2_seater_flying_wing_1_inc_description.JPG


It is called a Pterodactyl 1A

I remembered reading the following earlier on wikipedia after Randal pointed out about Northrop:

(Jack) Northrop's passion for tailless flight was honored by the naming of a giant tailless pterosaur Quetzalcoatlus northropi.

Quetzscale1.png

Quetzalcoatlus - Wikipedia
 
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