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The World Under Climate Change


P

pixelsmith

Guest
This thread is for exploring what the world IS like because Climate Change is a fact. It is nothing new, nothing humans have caused and there is no reason to panic, or pay a tax.

There is no debating that climate change IS a fact and because of climate changes all life can evolve.

Ironically we polar bears and ALL life on earth because the climate changes.

Feel free to speak your mind and share your opinions here. There is no silencing of anyone, I will not wet my pants and run to a moderator and cry if you post something I don't agree with.

Free speech and open debate is WELCOME here on this thread.
 
This thread is for exploring what the world IS like because Climate Change is a fact. It is nothing new, nothing humans have caused and there is no reason to panic, or pay a tax.

Red bolding is mine. Yep - that's the party-line. With that belief - and it is a belief - business-as-usual can be engaged. The corporate powers do not have to pay, or alter their behavior - or do the clean-up! They win - you lose - with your cooperation. Bravo!
 
You better have your big boy pants on if you want to engage in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Red bolding is mine. Yep - that's the party-line. With that belief - and it is a belief - business-as-usual can be engaged. The corporate powers do not have to pay, or alter their behavior - or do the clean-up! They win - you lose - with your cooperation. Bravo!
It is not a party line. It is a fact. The earth goes on and out of ice ages and warming periods with or without humans. You should consider learning an ounce of real science and earth history.
 
Tyger do you have any ballz at all to debate here or will you continue to hide on one of your liberal/socialist/progressive pseudo science non debating threads?
I would like to ask you a few questions.
 
Tyger do you have any ballz at all to debate here
Seems not.
or will you continue to hide on one of your liberal/socialist/progressive pseudo science non debating threads?
Guess so. (Your string of adjectives betray your political stance).
I would like to ask you a few questions.
I am curious about that. You have asked the same questions over-and-over again - of others, and now me. You've been answered time and again. Yet you pose the same questions to new posters. Links have been posted that directly answer your questions. But none of that seems to satisfy you. What is your aim in asking the same questions over-and-over again. If the answers don't satisfy you, why keep at it? Do you think the facts will suddenly somehow alter if you are persistent enough? Why, in fact, focus on me? I'm curious about that. Is it because I am the only poster posting? Is it that simple?

Fact is, in your rendering of your history around climate change, your epiphany seems to have occurred in the 1990's, during the very time that the PR dirty tricks campaign was launched against climate science. You really do need to watch the documentary 'Merchants of Doubt', if not read the book by Naomi Oreskes. Or at least listen to the video linked to in post#12 below. In the last half of that video, Oreskes goes into the dirty tricks that went on in the 1990's, that impacted how the public viewed climate change. It seems that you were significantly impacted by that PR campaign - because you pretty much 'parrot' - sometimes word-for-word - what that PR campaign of the 1990's set into motion against climate change science.

The problem 'debating' you is twofold: questionable understanding of the science and a consistent proclivity to slime any climate science source/scientist with the PR 'dirty tricks' politics. Example: continual reference to the Skeptical Science website's founder, John Cook, as a 'cartoonist'. :rolleyes: Nonsense like that. You are not a serious debater. In fact you've posted pictures of John Cook that I believe you think are unflattering - assuming, I guess, that a point is made. These are your 'debating points' - hardly impressive.

As stated in a comment to the video linked below:
"One of the things I noticed is that Skeptical Science has became such a good weapon against denialist propaganda that the denialists have stopped trying to address the actual content from SkS. Instead if presented with links to SkS they instead attack the messenger, calling it "just a blog" and questioning the credibility of John Cook. Ignoring the actual science in favor of rebutting the info with distractions to avoid admitting they have been beaten. While annoying it is a sign of how useful and successful Skeptical Science has become."

Response: "The interesting part of those attacks is that a lot of people on the SkS team (especially the Authors) are scientists or have published in the scientific literature. The rest consists of a lot of people who are seasoned science communicators who know what they're talking about. This type of attack is used as it is a way for science deniers to dismiss Skeptical Science."

The rise of Skeptical Science
TEXT: "Published on Apr 13, 2015: Everyone at Skeptical Science spends a lot of their time reading the scientific literature and listening to experts. Without that we wouldn't be able to write all the material that's published on Skeptical Science. It's a lot of work, especially when you do this with a critical eye. Our goal, after all, is to ensure that what we write reflects the scientific literature on the subject as accurately as possible.

"The materials created by Skeptical Science are used by teachers, politicians, and of course by users on the internet to rebut climate myths. Thanks to this a lot of people have seen materials produced by us, even though they might not know that they have.

"The website Skeptical Science wasn't created overnight, nor was the team behind it assembled instantly. It started small with John Cook starting the website and publishing the first rebuttals to climate myths. As I wasn't familiar with the story of how Skeptical Science evolved to the website it is today I had the idea to interview John about this. Despite John constantly saying "I'm just not that interesting" I eventually managed to get him in front of the camera to tell the story behind Skeptical Science.

The article released with this video can be found here:
http://www.realsceptic.com/2015/04/13...

The transcript, used resources, and citations for this video can be found here:
http://www.realsceptic.com/video-tran...



Some further comments on the video -

Comment: "One of the things I noticed is that Skeptical Scinece has became such a good weapon against denialist propaganda that the denialists have stopped trying to address the actual content from SS. Instead if presented with links to SS they instead attack the messenger, calling it "just a blog" and questioning the credibility of John Cook. Ignoring the actual science in favor of rebutting the info with distractions to avoid admitting they have been beaten. While annoying it is a sign of how useful and successful Skeptical Science has become."

Comment: "I actually have a clip from the above video that goes into this scheduled for release on June 26 (yes, I have a long backlog of videos). What is said in that clip is the very reason why I used the Gandhi quote at the start of this Skeptical Science video.

"The interesting part of those attacks is that a lot of people on the SkS team (especially the Authors) are scientists or have published in the scientific literature. The rest consists of a lot of people who are seasoned science communicators who know what they're talking about. This type of attack is used as it is a way for science deniers to dismiss Skeptical Science."


Comment: "Cool I look forward to the release of more from this interview.

"Yes the denier dismissal of Skeptical Science, but then they will cite blog after blog, and non scientist after non scientist. The hypocrisy in the denialist scene is rather sad.

"However like this interview pointed out, Skeptical Science is not so much to try and convince the denialists (they seem incapable of admitting the science shown to them) but to give people who get bombarded by the denialist rhetoric a way to sort out the fiction from the facts. And of course to give any rational person who might be on the fence the ability to see the denialist arguments are smoke and mirrors.

"Sooner or latter we will need to just accept the denialists will never be convenced by rational arguments and we will need to move forward and ignore them. When ever the denialists succeed in engaging people in debate the denialists have won a small victory, they have distracted people from action and into debate.Instead of debating them or countering them, put them in their rightful place as irrelevant."

Comment: "I'm an avid AGW denier-debunker, and the site - along with Tamino's "Open Mind" blog and RealClimate - has been just invaluable. I've found the comments sections under the articles especially helpful, as one can have small points explained or get pointed in the right direction when sub-topics come up."

 
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Here we have the essence of the 'complaint' against Naomi Oreskes, handled in concise short paragraphs.

The videos that follow are important for content. The problem is, I don't think you, pixel, will watch them. In the past you clearly haven't. If you are sincere, the answers you seek are within the videos I have linked to. I don't think you are sincere, however. But all things have a use, as the saying goes.

What does Naomi Oreskes' study on consensus show?

What does Naomi Oreskes' study on consensus show?

What the Science Says
- An examination of the papers that critics claim refute the consensus are found to actually endorse the consensus or are review papers (eg - they don't offer any new research but merely review other papers). This led the original critic Benny Peiser to retract his criticism of Oreskes' study.

Climate Myth - Naomi Oreskes' study on consensus was flawed. The claim of “consensus” rests almost entirely on an inaccurate and now-outdated single page comment in the journal Science entitled The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change (Oreskes 2004). Benny Peiser conducted a search of peer-reviewed literature on the ISI Web of Science database between 1993 and 2003. Dr. Peiser’s research demonstrated that several of the abstracts confounded Oreskes’ assertion of unanimity by explicitly rejecting or casting doubt upon the notion that human activities are the main drivers of the observed warming over the last 50 years. (source: Consensus? What Consensus?)

Skeptical Science Gives the History of this Myth - In 2004, Naomi Oreskes performed a survey of all peer reviewed abstracts on the subject "global climate change" published between 1993 and 2003. She surveyed the ISI Web of Science database, looking only at peer reviewed, scientific articles. The survey failed to find a single paper that rejected the consensus position that global warming over the past 50 years is predominantly anthropogenic. 75% of the papers agreed with the consensus position while 25% made no comment either way (eg - focused on methods or paleoclimate analysis).

Benny Peiser's rebuttal
Benny Peiser repeated Oreskes survey and claimed to have found 34 peer reviewed studies rejecting the consensus. However, an inspection of each of the 34 studies reveals most of them don't reject the consensus at all. The remaining articles in Peiser's list are editorials or letters, not peer-reviewed studies. Peiser has since retracted his criticism of Oreskes survey:
"Only [a] few abstracts explicitly reject or doubt the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) consensus which is why I have publicly withdrawn this point of my critique. [snip] I do not think anyone is questioning that we are in a period of global warming. Neither do I doubt that the overwhelming majority of climatologists is agreed that the current warming period is mostly due to human impact."

The Viscount Monckton of Benchley's rebuttal
Despite Peiser's retraction, the same argument was repeated by the Viscount Monckton of Benchley (and plagiarised by Schulte). Here are the five studies Monckton claims Oreskes should've included in her survey as rejecting the consensus position:​
 
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Keep in mind that this talk was given in 2007 - she will publish her book 'Merchants of Doubt' in 2011 four years from this talk.

Here she gives a pithy overview of the history of the science of global warming - which did not begin with Michael Mann in the late 1980's, but 50 years and more prior to the 1980's.

Comment: "Brilliant history of climate science and climate denial. Global warming was known about in the 1930s, recognised as a significant problem by the 1960s-70s, yet 4 physicists who used to work for the tobacco industry used the same strategy of creating a PR campaign that there was "scientific uncertainty" to confuse the US public into thinking that there is a lack of scientific consensus on the issue."

The American Denial of Global Warming - Perspectives on Ocean Science

TEXT: "Uploaded on Dec 20, 2007: Polls show that between one-third and one-half of Americans still believe that there is "no solid" evidence of global warming, or that if warming is happening it can be attributed to natural variability. Others believe that scientists are still debating the point. Join scientist and renowned historian Naomi Oreskes as she describes her investigation into the reasons for such widespread mistrust and misunderstanding of scientific consensus and probes the history of organized campaigns designed to create public doubt and confusion about science."
 
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Answering Climate Change Skeptics, Naomi Oreskes
TEXT: "Uploaded on Mar 3, 2010: A presentation based off of her recent book, 'Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscure the Truth about Climate Change'. Naomi Oreskes, author and professor of history and science studies, University of California, San Diego. From the University of Rhode Island's Spring 2010 Vetlesen Lecture Series, People and Planet Global Environmental Change. March 2, 2010."
 
Tyger do you have any ballz at all to debate here
As stated so many times, I am not interested in debating the science. Never have been.
or will you continue to hide on one of your liberal/socialist/progressive pseudo science
Pixel your comment: "liberal/socialist/progressive" is pure politics. Not an ounce of science in any of it. As for "pseudo science", it is you who are out on left field in this. The science is very clear. You just have to read it.
non debating threads?
As for "non debating" threads - the science is not being debated, but how the future may look is certainly a topic for discussion - we could certainly have varying opinions on how climate change will wind up impacting us and what the world will look like, be like, to live in.

But to Oreskes' video -

In Oreskes' 2007 talk linked to in post#12 she goes into the background of the four physicists who argued for the Tobacco Industry and then became spokesmen for the Oil and Coal Industry regarding climate change science (Jastrow, Seitz, Nierenberg and Singer). Since I have no confidence that you (pixel) will actually view the video, I will present notes on the content of the last 10 minutes or so of her talk - though you really should listen to the entire video. You often rant that others are being 'taken for a ride' - when I fear it has been you who seems to have swallowed the kool-aid and have been duped by liars starting in the 1990's - the time frame of your epiphany (as you have stated).

In all instances, the four physicists lost their debates - acid rain was proven to be caused by acid emissions, CFC's were demonstrated to be linked to the ozone layer and were banned, and ETS (environmental tobacco smoke) does cause lung cancer. And yet they were able to use the same arguments again and again - namely, that the science was uncertain, the concerns were exaggerated, technology will solve the problem, and there is no need for government interference. She calls this 'the tobacco strategy'.

The question is - why would distinguished scientists do this? Why would scientists attack science and defend tobacco? It's politics, a political ideology, and it's actually something rather specific - it's the issue of regulation. Because in each of these cases, the underlying goal of the work these men did was to stave off government regulation. It was underscored by an ideological position that is known and been around for a long time, the ideology of "Laissez faire" - of letting free markets 'do their thing' without government interference.

SDI was different - it was about defending the US against Soviet Communism and to win the Cold War. Jastrow, Seitz, Niereenberg and Singer (the four physicists) were fiercely anti-communist. They were also fiercely pro-free markets, and therefore opposed to government regulation and control. They were examples of what George Soros has called 'market fundamentalists' - they had a kind of unshakeable faith in the invisible hand of the marketplace to solve all problems, and an intractable hostility to government regulation as a form of creeping communism. In fact in some articles they have published they have referenced environmentalists as 'watermelons' - green on the outside, but red on the inside.

So now it becomes clear why global warming is so important - because energy is at the root of all economic activity. Everything we do, everywhere we go, everything we make, every vacation we take, all implicate us in using energy and therefore in using fossil fuels. Global Warming is the mother of all environmental problems - energy is at the root of all economic activity. Singer cited Jastrow and Niereenberg as being worried that international treaties like the Kyoto Protocols would undermine US sovereignty, and that, in effect - having won the Cold War, we would lose the peace.

Barry Goldwater had said that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. But this story shows that extremism is indeed a vice. These men who promulgated climate science denial, may have been perfectly justified in having the political beliefs that they held, but they did not make a political argument on political grounds. They disguised a political debate as a scientific one - they camouflaged a political debate as a scientific debate. In the process, they greatly misrepresented the facts about climate science, confused the American people, and delayed political action on one of the pressing global issues of our time.

In the 1980's one of Bill Nierenberg's favorite arguments about global warming was that we could afford to wait and see. We have waited and we have seen, and what we have seen is that the predictions of the 1970's and 1980's, even the 1950's, have largely come true. Global Warming is here (and there are almost no Communists left).
 
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I would like to ask you a few questions.
So you say. Why? Are you not able to find the answers for yourself? Why do you assume I should have the answers for you? I've made it clear I'm not interested in answering questions you pose. Why should I since you have never once answered any question I have posed, even nominally - nor quite a bunch of questions other posters have put to you on numerous climate change threads. You slide away from answering, but have many demands. Curious way of going about it - and always with you expending the last amount of effort.

It's a game with you, pixel, that's pretty old and tiresome. I doubt you will have anything relevant - or respectful - to say about Oreskes' analysis of the history of this denier mess a small handful of scientists engaged in, and got a whole mess of people - like yourself - to parrot endlessly.

There are three aspects woven through what you currently believe: economics, politics and science. The science is not in debate - but the politics is very much skewing the situation because the economics is the driver, in many layered ways.
 
Pixel, I have noticed that you use a lot of Don Easterbrook's blatantly misleading charts and unfortunate misinformation. I know you are not keen on the expanded text within posts so I will just supply the link. Anyone familiar with Easterbrook knows he is not a reliable source. However, it seems you have built your thinking on what he's saying, or that's what it looks like because you seem to use him as your back-up.

THE INCORRIGIBLE EASTERBROOK
by GARETH on JUNE 10, 2012
The incorrigible Easterbrook
 
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