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September 24, 2017 — Paracast Listener Grills Gene and Randall

Discussion in 'Talk About the Show' started by Gene Steinberg, Sep 24, 2017.



  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    It was one of those "turnabout is fair play" episodes, in which listener Louis Sheehan questioned Gene and Randall about their various views.

    He also expressed the desire to question filmmaker Paul Kimball about the cases that made up his "Best Evidence" film.

    He got his wish in this week's episode of After The Paracast, an exclusive feature of The Paracast+.

    For more information about our premium package, please check:

    Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
     
  2. Existential

    Existential Paranormal Adept

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    Would great to have William Birnes back on the show, he is hilarious.
    Quite an active imagination.
     
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  3. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    I've made inquiries. I'd like to see him return.
     
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  4. Mr. Fibuli

    Mr. Fibuli Paranormal Adept

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    Great job Lou, and as always, Gene and RandE.
     
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  5. wwkirk

    wwkirk Paranormal Adept

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    This show was interesting, giving insight into the working of Gene's mind.
     
  6. Lou_Sheehan

    Lou_Sheehan Paranormal Adept

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    Aww. Thank you, Mr. Fibuli.
     
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  7. Angel of Ioren

    Angel of Ioren Friendly Skeptic Staff Member

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    Really fun episode guys. I remember listening to that Sean David Morton episode soon after I discovered the Paracast in 2008 and went back into the archives. I can't believe that was a decade ago. I never thought back then that I would get this involved in the topic, and going as far as starting my own podcast.

    I'm so disappointed I couldn't make it to this recording but it's not easy when you have a couple of kids and your podcasting setup is in the living room!

    I really liked the quick discussion about there not being enough photos, in a time where everyone has a camera. The quick tech discussion at the end also made me happy, yet disappointed I missed it!

    In case anyone is interested, my podcast cohost wrote a quick article about getting a good shot of a UFO if you see one: Four tips for recording your Unknown Flying Object (UFO)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  8. William Strathmann

    William Strathmann Paranormal Adept

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    Nice show to all participants. I appreciated again Gene's point that the observer is a major part of the reporting equation. I also appreciated Pauly Pessimist's "extensive exhortation" on ATP.

    So now, does anyone have any serious suggestions for the revised "Top Ten Cases" as of 2017?
    Inquiring minds need to know. . .:D
     
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  9. Lou_Sheehan

    Lou_Sheehan Paranormal Adept

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    Here is a link to (free on youtube) Paul Kimball's "Best Evidence Top 10 UFO Sightings":
     
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  10. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    It’s a good start for Paul’s After The Paracast appearance.
     
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  11. Greers Meeting Planner

    Greers Meeting Planner Paranormal Adept

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    After listening to the after the paracast episode a thought re occurred to me and it's a painful one...

    Is there actually nothing going on when it comes to UFOs?

    When I say nothing going on, I mean there is no evidence for visitation from nonhuman entities in physical intelligently controlled craft.

    Why do I keep thinking this?

    - The classic cases for best evidence such as Roswell and Bentwaters are, as time progresses, losing more and more of their credibility, the remaining cases like shag harbour are relying on anecdotes only

    - In an age of camera phones and low price tech we are not getting multiple witness recordings of UFO from differing vantage points that you would expect to happen if a UFO appeared over a populated area for any reasonable length of time (points of light in the sky don't count before you scream Phoenix)

    - Misinformation from cases like bennowitz and doty make you question any case that involves officialdom

    As a total body of evidence there is nothing that would pass scientific muster and there are no reliable multiple witness cases that prove the aliens in physical ships hypothesis.

    Are we dealing with a psychological / human condition phenomenon that is rooted in misidentification, malleable memory, the need for notoriety, charlatonism, imagination, ideology and nothing perhaps to do with real alien visitors?

    I want to believe... but I can't :(
     
  12. Paul Kimball

    Paul Kimball Paranormal Adept

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    In a word, yes. There may be a paranormal / supernatural component to it all, but I don't see anything that even remotely indicates structured craft from an extraterrestrial source.
     
  13. Lou_Sheehan

    Lou_Sheehan Paranormal Adept

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    A touch of hyperbole? Kelly Johnson, Shag Harbor, Tehran ,,,,
     
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  14. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

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    There's evidence, just not sufficient evidence for you ( personally ). Other people have a different view on what constitutes evidence that's good enough for them.
    You shouldn't believe anything until you have good enough reasons for you to do so. Personally I don't know about "nonhuman entities". How do we define that in specific terms? From my perspective some of the craft could hypothetically be entities in and of themselves, but I don't know enough about them to be sure about that. Apart from that, it seems reasonable to believe that some sort of alien craft do exist because:
    1. It doesn't seem reasonable to believe that every single report of an alien craft has a mundane explanation.
    2. It doesn't seem reasonable to believe that the PTB don't know a hell of a lot more than they're telling us
    3. It doesn't seem reasonable for me to believe that I'm the only person on Earth telling the truth about what I've seen.
    Maybe you'll get lucky enough to see one well enough for yourself to remove all reasonable doubt.
     
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  15. Paul Kimball

    Paul Kimball Paranormal Adept

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    The only hyperbole comes from folks who look at those stories, as interesting as they might be, and conclude that they provide sufficient proof to establish extraterrestrial visitation. People can of course believe whatever they want (religions have been built on less), but that's as far as it goes.
     
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  16. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

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    I would say the following, "remotely indicates structured craft from an extraterrestrial source."


    "In intelligence, if you have something to say about some vital problem you write a report that is known as an "Estimate of the Situation."
    A few days after the DC-3 was buzzed, the people at ATIC decided that the time had arrived to make an Estimate of the Situation.
    The situation was the UFO's; the estimate was that they were interplanetary!
    It was a rather thick document with a black cover and it was printed on legal-sized paper.
    Stamped across the front were the words TOP SECRET.
    It contained the Air Force's analysis of many of the incidents I have told you about plus many similar ones.
    All of them had come from scientists, pilots, and other equally credible observers, and each one was an unknown." - Ruppelt
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
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  17. Thomas R Morrison

    Thomas R Morrison Paranormal Adept

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    Honestly I don't understand how anyone could make that statement with a straight face. How many compelling cases involve a large metallic-looking device (often emitting light and/or encircled by colored lights) levitating in mid-air and/or performing striking aerial maneuvers unknown to conventional aircraft? Thousands, tens of thousands? So it seems outlandish to dismiss this plenitude of "structured craft" reports.

    That leaves us with the "from an extraterrestrial source" part of your statement. I think it's obvious that assigning an origin to an unknown object is at best speculation. But we are faced with two compelling facts:

    1.) the anomalous objects reported commonly perform aerial maneuvers vastly beyond all known terrestrial technological capabilities, and these performance characteristics are often eerily consistent: hairpin maneuvers at extremely high rates of speed, instantaneous accelerations from a standstill to very high speeds, and levitation without any visible or audible emissions. And these unexplainable and distinctive characteristics have been reported widely for over half a century, yet we still haven't seen a glimmer of such capabilities in the public sector. So it's a reasonable assumption, although an unprovable one (because it's always *possible* that Uncle Sam is capable of keeping a secret this big, for this long), that the anomalous metallic devices aren't the products of homo sapiens sapiens' technology.

    2.) the recent advances in exosolar planet detection and analysis have proven that Earth-like planets are incredibly abundant within in our galaxy and throughout the visible universe. Astronomers currently estimate that between 40-80 billion Earth-like planets exist in the habitable zones of their parent stars within the Milky Way galaxy alone. And we now know that water is ubiquitous among planetary star systems, and other features of Earth previously thought to be uncommon, are actually very common. So the scientific assumption at this point is that life is probably fairly common among exosolar planets similar to Earth. It would be irrational to assume that intelligent life is miraculously uncommon in the universe or even within our galaxy, because we have no cause to make that assumption: under similar conditions we should expect similar results. And even at our modest point of technological progress, a mere 500 years after the Dark Ages, the prospect of a superluminal gravitational field propulsion breakthrough is currently transitioning from a theoretical possibility to a technological inevitability.

    So given these two factors, the most obvious and rational conclusion to draw is that we are on occasion being visited by some of our more technologically advanced galactic and/or intergalactic neighbors. With what we know now, this is an almost mundane assertion.

    What I find disturbing is the bizarre intellectual denial of this simple set of facts. The current fashion of favoring "any explanation other than the ETH" without having anything resembling a viable alternative hypothesis, appears to be an entirely irrational position to take, given the facts at hand. Certainly not *all* unexplained aerial incidents can be explained by the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but to deny that any or even most of the reports of tangible craft performing harrowing maneuvers in our skies are most likely of extraterrestrial origin, strikes me as preposterous and logically indefensible.

    How any modern thinker can favor a "paranormal/spiritual" explanation for the majority of anomalous UFO reports, completely blows my mind, frankly. Shall we abandon logic altogether then, and go back to burning witches, torturing heretics, and blood-letting the ill?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  18. William Strathmann

    William Strathmann Paranormal Adept

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    Thomas, do you have your own top ten compelling reports? I would very seriously like to review them.

    [On another note, any news on the diffuse green column?]

    I've mentioned before that I was an F-4 radar tech in the '70s, so the Tehran case is particularly compelling to me, for some kind of radar-reflecting object that apparently was under intelligent control. But saying it was a structured craft conveying interstellar travelers is more than I would be willing to say. So too with the RB-47. One other case is the Coyne helo case, which is featured in Peter Sturrock's UFO book. Something is going on, but what?
     
  19. Thomas R Morrison

    Thomas R Morrison Paranormal Adept

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    I think that most people overlook the “tip of the iceberg” factor with this subject, because every time some big popular case takes a blow to its credibility, people start wondering if *all the cases* are just some sort of misunderstanding.

    I don’t have a “top ten list” and frankly I lost interest in most of the individual case studies decades ago. Because after my own incredible multiple-witness sighting at seven years old, I fell into the habit of asking everyone I knew about their own strangest experiences, and it would probably stun the average Joe to find out just how many of the people in their lives have had a classic unexplained ufo sighting, and yet never bring it up unless they’re asked. A beloved neighbor near my family home who was basically a surrogate mother to me, described a silvery cigar-shaped ufo with colored lights that appeared to hover in broad daylight and then instantly dart away, while she was looking out the window of a car during a trip through the southwest. And a school teacher I knew cautiously broached this subject after hearing me talk about it, before she described a sighting that she had with a group of friends at college – they were on the roof of an apartment building one afternoon when they saw a metallic disc-shaped object with a series of lights around the outer perimeter descend straight down from the sky and come to a dead stop over the tree line a few hundred yards away. It hovered silently and motionless there for at least 20 minutes – enough time for them to call the police and show the responding officer the object when he arrived, before watching it suddenly depart along a rapid zig-zag trajectory weaving around nearby mountain ridges and over the horizon out of sight. That one made the paper the following day.

    The point is: you never hear about most cases because people are reluctant to talk about them - and those can be the most compelling cases because you know the person telling you about it, and you can see the wonder in their eyes when they talk about it, which is usually told like a secret that they need to get off their chest. But of course frauds love to go around promoting their fake stories, and those often get national or even global exposure: so the tip of the iceberg that the public sees is weighted fairly heavily toward the dubious cases that tend to crumble under scrutiny. After a few decades of hearing fascinating personal accounts from friends and acquintances, most of my favorite cases have never been heard beyond the kitchen table, and that’s fine with me.

    Because at some point I realized that this isn’t about proving that ufos or aliens are real. This is about a form of field propulsion unknown to conventional science, which would transform human civilization in a big and positive way virtually overnight if we could replicate it. So I’m happy to leave the case studies to the dedicated ufologists. To me, this is a physics problem to be solved.

    No news, but I am going to send you an image so you can see what it looked like.

    Those are interesting cases - radar cases with visual confirmation are very compelling. I also like the Japan Airlines case, Gordon Cooper’s account of the ufo that his team caught on film at Edward’s Air Force Base, the Malmstrom AFB incident, and the Trumbull County case. There are also some really interesting cases from the White Sands Missile Proving Ground back in the 50s and 60s, at least one of which was caught on cinetheodolite as it circled a climbing test rocket – there are a number of cases involving military personnel capturing solid craft on films that were never released to the public. And that’s infuriating: we paid for that evidence and we have every right to see it.

    We can’t say for certain what these objects are, but it strikes me that extraterrestrial technology is the most prosaic explanation we have which conforms to the available facts. And that's good science - we should formulate our hypotheses conservatively. Every other explanation, and certainly any paranormal/spiritual explanation, requires far more radical assumptions, such as “a paranormal/spiritual/consciousness phenomenon can appear as a solid metallic object that shows up on radar, performs aerobatic maneuvers, and emits bright colored light.” I find such paranormal explanations to be deeply implausible.

    I don’t understand why anyone struggles with the ETH, honestly. It seems obvious at this point that the universe is teeming with life: Earth-like conditions are ubiquitous - we know that now for a fact. And it seems all but certain that countless other worlds have yielded intelligent technological species many thousands or even millions of years ago. So it would be bizarre if we weren’t being visited by alien intelligences and their autonomous drones from all corners of the galaxy and beyond. Sure, some of these things may have come from “other universes” or some other inexplicably exotic origin, but why would anyone find that to be >more likely< than the far simpler possibility that they’ve dropped by from one of those nice inhabitable worlds just a few light-years over yonder?
     
  20. Greers Meeting Planner

    Greers Meeting Planner Paranormal Adept

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    - I struggle with the ETH because there is no scientific evidence that proves extra terrestrial life exists

    - It is not obvious at this point that the universe is teeming with life. There is no evidence of life elsewhere, none.

    - We do not know that earth like conditions are ubiquitous. We know planet's are ubiquitous. There is no evidence for a planet that is the size of earth, with liquid water and land, that receives about the same energy from its star at the planet's surface and has similar gasses in the atmosphere, has an orbiting moon to influence tides etc etc

    Other than addressing your points, there are other ETH problems:

    - We don't know how genesis occurred. Until we do, we don't know how often it may repeat in the cosmos (if at all) and under what conditions are needed to create it and how often those conditions will be present. Genesis may be such an unlikely event that it is unlikely to occur in anywhere where we can observe it, or maybe genesis is not a act of nature.

    - Genesis on earth has only occurred once (as far as is known). If Genesis was an inevitability of earth like conditions we would expect to see it happening again, and again and again on earth. It hasn't. This should be discussed more when the extra terrestrial life issue come up

    - Fermi paradox. No seriously, where are they? SETI has been looking a long time.... nothing and side from radio signals there is nothing in the cosmos from all of our looking that does not look like natural occurances
     
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