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Richard Dolan--UFOs for the 21st Century Mind
- Thread starter wwkirk
- Start date
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Dolan's and Chris's claim that "some crop circle formations are unexplainable" is pointless when they don't give a example of one.
The demand that crop circle makers have to "prove" they made all the circles is absolutely ludicrous. Enough evidence has been presented that humans can and do make these things. No evidence exists that there is any other explanation or that one is even required.
The claim that some large crop circles "suddenly" appeared is unfounded. I think there is a post here on the forum explaining one such claim. A lot of this has been discussed here before.
Really now. Some "complex crop circles" are not man-made? Which ones exactly? It's like me saying that some Fabergé eggs must be non-man-made due to their complexity, but neglecting to provide an example. There is about as much evidence for one as the other.
The demand that crop circle makers have to "prove" they made all the circles is absolutely ludicrous. Enough evidence has been presented that humans can and do make these things. No evidence exists that there is any other explanation or that one is even required.
The claim that some large crop circles "suddenly" appeared is unfounded. I think there is a post here on the forum explaining one such claim. A lot of this has been discussed here before.
Really now. Some "complex crop circles" are not man-made? Which ones exactly? It's like me saying that some Fabergé eggs must be non-man-made due to their complexity, but neglecting to provide an example. There is about as much evidence for one as the other.
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Jimi H.
Paranormal Adept
I think Dolan's 'breakaway civilization' stuff is ripe for a proper writeup in an entirely academic periodical, it could be done without taking sides whether he's right or not about the grand conspiracy about an undisclosed secret world gov., but simply by looking at the idea/hypothesis itself in a political scientific or historical sense. Or you could argue it simply as a description of a sentiment among certain powers, a sentiment which binds them together as a group, in spirit.
The thing is, if you're going to argue the concrete reality of an actual controlling group, you need some evidence that can't easily be shot down. Inferring things are not the same as documenting things, that's just the reality of it, and overtly opinion/rumor-based politicizing/agitation traditionally belongs with political or other interests, not in academic works. This isn't really a bad thing though, is it? Personally, one reason my confidence in academic output is quite high, is I know what happens when you don't back up your stuff, you get a low grade
Similar to trainedobserver's comments above, I'll say, and I'm sure Dolan knows this to be true, you cannot build a house, in an academic sense, on the Apollo 11 Moon aliens story. If you suggest that it can be used in an argument, you are not going to get a good grade The details are as follows: Some short-wave (HAM) operators supposedly picked up a secret NASA channel were they heard Armstrong explain that he saw these 'huge babies', namely two menacing spacecraft: "These babies are huge, sir … enormous …. Oh, God, you wouldn't believe it!"
Debunking myths about Neil Armstrong - Technology & science - Space | NBC News
Aliens On The Moon? | The Morton Report
Should we believe it, when noone managed to record that bit, despite the huge interest in the mission from private operators? I don't, but it's a good story. Truth is, he can't present stuff like that, without clearly stating that it's really just a good story, and then expect to get academic interest. Academics would turn the tables on Dolan, and ask, why does Dolan forego all manner of scientific 'rules' and use this story to justify his conspiracy theories? Doesn't he have something more well-documented? I'm sure he is fishing for maximum interest when he takes a good story like that, but I think it's always better to use sources that can actually be documented, in some form or another. Even if they aren't as spectacular!
Thanks to the hosts for posing my question, I'll try to word them a bit shorter in the future
The thing is, if you're going to argue the concrete reality of an actual controlling group, you need some evidence that can't easily be shot down. Inferring things are not the same as documenting things, that's just the reality of it, and overtly opinion/rumor-based politicizing/agitation traditionally belongs with political or other interests, not in academic works. This isn't really a bad thing though, is it? Personally, one reason my confidence in academic output is quite high, is I know what happens when you don't back up your stuff, you get a low grade
Similar to trainedobserver's comments above, I'll say, and I'm sure Dolan knows this to be true, you cannot build a house, in an academic sense, on the Apollo 11 Moon aliens story. If you suggest that it can be used in an argument, you are not going to get a good grade
The details are as follows: Some short-wave (HAM) operators supposedly picked up a secret NASA channel were they heard Armstrong explain that he saw these 'huge babies', namely two menacing spacecraft: "These babies are huge, sir … enormous …. Oh, God, you wouldn't believe it!" Debunking myths about Neil Armstrong - Technology & science - Space | NBC News
Aliens On The Moon? | The Morton Report
Should we believe it, when noone managed to record that bit, despite the huge interest in the mission from private operators? I don't, but it's a good story. Truth is, he can't present stuff like that, without clearly stating that it's really just a good story, and then expect to get academic interest. Academics would turn the tables on Dolan, and ask, why does Dolan forego all manner of scientific 'rules' and use this story to justify his conspiracy theories? Doesn't he have something more well-documented? I'm sure he is fishing for maximum interest when he takes a good story like that, but I think it's always better to use sources that can actually be documented, in some form or another. Even if they aren't as spectacular!
Thanks to the hosts for posing my question, I'll try to word them a bit shorter in the future
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
I was disappointed in Richard Dolan's response to Project Camelot and the Disclosure Project of Stephen Bassett's. I think his response was to laugh and to say that Bassett was a friend of his. He also said he didn't care what others think of the friends he keeps. Fine. But he never did answer the question. Did he think being chums with these folks was hurting his reputation?
He also was a bit condescending about working to be a UFO researcher or having to work in an office environment. I think Dolan might be shocked that a good majority of humans do have to work in an office to bring home the bacon.
He also was a bit condescending about working to be a UFO researcher or having to work in an office environment. I think Dolan might be shocked that a good majority of humans do have to work in an office to bring home the bacon.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I've heard Dolan explain the "Project Camelot" foray as a chance to expand the audience and sell books before. I agree with him that doing interviews and conferences with them them opened him up to a wider audience. I understand that completely. That doesn't change the fact that when he did that, he took a hit, because that was the public reaction to it, at least in some circles. From a business standpoint I don't blame the guy at all.
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Agree good show and thanks for asking the questions.
You have to say at least Mr Dolan does not shy away from fact he suggests those who study this field are pushed out of 'academic society' reminds you of similar episodes of history for example "witch-hunts "folks were push away from communities and villages due to their beliefs in thought and medicine. The so called 'witches' male or female. children subjected to starvation, drowning , burning at the stake in their hundreds. In today's version is to ridiculed and isolate the investigators and their families from basically not following main stream society thoughts when it comes to studying this field of paranormal subject. However, it not just academics that are concerned to speak openly in case of risking their jobs and funding. Don't blame them as they have to put bread and butter on the table but they should keep their ridicule remarks to themselves especially when they listen to paranormal shows behind closed doors. His theory of a 'Breakaway Civilisation' is interesting indeed which others in the past have written about in fictional novels and books such as Zacharia Sitchin , Edgar Rice Burroughs etc. It does seem society has jumped incredibly fast in technology from WW2 to today in technology?
You have to say at least Mr Dolan does not shy away from fact he suggests those who study this field are pushed out of 'academic society' reminds you of similar episodes of history for example "witch-hunts "folks were push away from communities and villages due to their beliefs in thought and medicine. The so called 'witches' male or female. children subjected to starvation, drowning , burning at the stake in their hundreds. In today's version is to ridiculed and isolate the investigators and their families from basically not following main stream society thoughts when it comes to studying this field of paranormal subject. However, it not just academics that are concerned to speak openly in case of risking their jobs and funding. Don't blame them as they have to put bread and butter on the table but they should keep their ridicule remarks to themselves especially when they listen to paranormal shows behind closed doors. His theory of a 'Breakaway Civilisation' is interesting indeed which others in the past have written about in fictional novels and books such as Zacharia Sitchin , Edgar Rice Burroughs etc. It does seem society has jumped incredibly fast in technology from WW2 to today in technology?
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F
Fcseven
Guest
Great interview. I agree with his idea of a breakaway civilization. In fact, I would take it a step further and say the individuals involved are not only aware but connected to this phenomenon it in some way. I believe the ultra rich, high level secret societies, and connected bloodlines hold the answers.
Jimi H.
Paranormal Adept
I think his point was that he's not personally cut out for it, I didn't sense any condescension towards people who do work in offices.
Jimi H.
Paranormal Adept
I'm not sure things are this simple. If you have solid evidence, things change. If you present rumor and infer various things, slowly but surely the idea will spread among academics that dealing with UFO-people is toxic, because UFO-people can't be trusted to make levelheaded conclusions, and so your own work becomes jeopardized. I think it is not only a bad thing.
Also, to turn your witchcraft analogy around, the witchhunts were performed by people who believed in things like witchcraft, similar to the people who believe in aliens, in a religious sense. It has long been the job of the academic world to critizise superstitions, in part because beliefs and superstitions make people hurt each other, or even kill each other. I don't know of one single confirmed case of a human killed by an ET, but I know of millions who were killed by superstitious (religious) people, or people who believed in 'good stories' about others.
Personally, I'm sufficiently intrigued by a few cases (which are supported by radar and other forms of documentation) to think there are 'unnatural' UFOs. But as an academic, I'm lacking the solid evidence that allow me to deal with the ETH as fact. Take the Belgian radar observations from the Belgian wave, for example. Awesome footage, but it can't be used as proof of aliens. It would be too easy to shoot down as secret technology, drones, for instance.
If my job was to review Ph.D. proposals, I'd personally not give Mr. Dolan funds to look into the UFOs if he based his application on the Apollo 11 Moon aliens rumor. It would be reckless of me, and fall back on me for having shown poor judgement.
Maybe he has better evidence? If so, he should pound that evidence and forget about the rumors. Once you start going for the spectacular instead of the reasonable, you are already making it much harder for yourself to get academic interest.
Would I like more academic studies into it? Yes. Does the 'problem' with the UFOs reside with the academic world or the UFO-world? Or is it an old problem that persists because of the security concerns of the Cold War? I think it's a hodge-podge of various factors, but I regret to say that a high profiled guy like Dolan may be 'doing it wrong', and then it's easier for him to explain it's taboo or a conspiracy, instead of blaming his own lack of diciplin.
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DaveM
Paranormal Adept
I disagree
Jimi H.
Paranormal Adept
Ok, but there's really no reason to take something like that so hard or personal.
I work at an office, but I don't really feel like I'm cut out for it either tbh. Actually, I'm not sure we, as human beings, benefit from sitting inside on our ass shuffling papers for 8 hours each day.
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TheJCBand
Skilled Investigator
Whenever I hear Dolan speak, he overall sounds very intelligent, but there are always these little traces I pick up on that make me very skeptical. In this episode it started out with the crop circle stuff, and shame on Chris and Gene for not rebutting him with some of the points that we heard just last week.
As far as the Aztec stuff, I wish he could have gone a little deeper on that since the specific points he brought up were not things that were really discussed on the show in the past.
The final thing that I wanted more details on was towards the end of the show when he spoke about academics being afraid to take on the UFO subject and James McDonald's life being "ruined" by doing so. Every time I hear someone say things along those lines, I can't help but think it is utter nonsense. Scientists become scientists because they are curious people and want to discover new things. The reason there are few or no scientists studying UFOs is not because they think it will hurt their reputation, it's because there is nothing to study. I do not mean by this that UFOs are not real, but they are not measurable. There is no experiment to design and no data to look at to try and verify a model.
As far as the Aztec stuff, I wish he could have gone a little deeper on that since the specific points he brought up were not things that were really discussed on the show in the past.
The final thing that I wanted more details on was towards the end of the show when he spoke about academics being afraid to take on the UFO subject and James McDonald's life being "ruined" by doing so. Every time I hear someone say things along those lines, I can't help but think it is utter nonsense. Scientists become scientists because they are curious people and want to discover new things. The reason there are few or no scientists studying UFOs is not because they think it will hurt their reputation, it's because there is nothing to study. I do not mean by this that UFOs are not real, but they are not measurable. There is no experiment to design and no data to look at to try and verify a model.
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
What you failed to bring up is that most scientific research is funded by the military/government. Scientists might be curious but they aren't fools. Bring up the UFO topic and watch all that grant money dry up.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
What I heard quite concisely from Dolan was the business end of the UFO and paranormal industry. Let's face it, as he explained, he has kids to raise and the paycheck's obviously a big deal. This is the horse he hitched his wagon to and said wagon travels wherever the jobs are. Now I don't want to liken Dolan to a midwest traveling salesman, but his ability to be willing to talk about a lot of things, as he kept offering, and his willingness to entertain all that smells funky in the UFO field, is just what comes with the job apparently.
I think he was a more likeable figure when it was all about his message of the national security state in the guise of academic historian. Now he's much more of the salesman who simply claims mea culpa over the whole 33rd phase of the moon thing. Like Stanton who pioneered this biz long ago, you go where the money is and you stick to your message. However, I'm pretty sure Stanton's not going to entertain crop circles in any way, and if so, then I'm even more disillusioned than before.
I wish that much more time was spent on a focussed angle instead of roaming around the dusty old trail. This type of approach accomplishes little as a survey of topics only skims ideas. If the whole show had been just about a discussion of the breakaway civization theory I would have been much more engaged and have had a higher regard for the guest instead of lowering my estimation even further of the field and this particular writer.
The many times Dolan didn't seem to know if he was on air or live was the epitome of this seemingly accidental and haphazard look at "Behind the Scenes of UFO Researchers" starring Richard Dolan. Methinks we should not have had such indecent exposure of the field. Not that this was not already evident but this episode dropped all pretense and showed us all how it works. That's real life and maybe we all need a dose of that side of things?
I think I prefer episodes that are less about how the industry works and has more in depth discussion, where there is more thorough exploration and less 'maybe', 'could be' talk . In those concentrated episodes we are left to make up our own minds after good questions and examination of a specific issue. But that's just me.
I think he was a more likeable figure when it was all about his message of the national security state in the guise of academic historian. Now he's much more of the salesman who simply claims mea culpa over the whole 33rd phase of the moon thing. Like Stanton who pioneered this biz long ago, you go where the money is and you stick to your message. However, I'm pretty sure Stanton's not going to entertain crop circles in any way, and if so, then I'm even more disillusioned than before.
I wish that much more time was spent on a focussed angle instead of roaming around the dusty old trail. This type of approach accomplishes little as a survey of topics only skims ideas. If the whole show had been just about a discussion of the breakaway civization theory I would have been much more engaged and have had a higher regard for the guest instead of lowering my estimation even further of the field and this particular writer.
The many times Dolan didn't seem to know if he was on air or live was the epitome of this seemingly accidental and haphazard look at "Behind the Scenes of UFO Researchers" starring Richard Dolan. Methinks we should not have had such indecent exposure of the field. Not that this was not already evident but this episode dropped all pretense and showed us all how it works. That's real life and maybe we all need a dose of that side of things?
I think I prefer episodes that are less about how the industry works and has more in depth discussion, where there is more thorough exploration and less 'maybe', 'could be' talk . In those concentrated episodes we are left to make up our own minds after good questions and examination of a specific issue. But that's just me.
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enzo
Skilled Investigator
This guy strikes me as a Streiber weasel who is more interested in his writing empire then he is in truth. I have heard his name, but never heard him speak. Weak and insincere. Aztec? Really? He reminds me of all those people who are trying to milk the crop circle industry when we finally know the real truth about them: they are ALL MAN-MADE. These con artists will not give up. No, there is too much money in keeping up their illusions.
I am now of the opinion that there are no aliens. No one coming here from 13 trillion miles away. In fact, it is infinitely absurd. No inter-dimensionals, either. I am ready now to face that it is all BS. I've been had. It is all man-made technology. The only REAL aliens seem to be spooks and their trillionaire Dr. No banking sponsors who are building a global surveillance/police net. If you want to see the truth of this, just look up at any intersection in this country. See the camera? And I also think that the mass psychosis called 'abduction' is based on this collective subconscious understanding - the understanding that strangers who do not like us are watching very closely. No, they are not reptilians. They are your fellow weasel humans. I guess you could call them human.
I am now of the opinion that there are no aliens. No one coming here from 13 trillion miles away. In fact, it is infinitely absurd. No inter-dimensionals, either. I am ready now to face that it is all BS. I've been had. It is all man-made technology. The only REAL aliens seem to be spooks and their trillionaire Dr. No banking sponsors who are building a global surveillance/police net. If you want to see the truth of this, just look up at any intersection in this country. See the camera? And I also think that the mass psychosis called 'abduction' is based on this collective subconscious understanding - the understanding that strangers who do not like us are watching very closely. No, they are not reptilians. They are your fellow weasel humans. I guess you could call them human.
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Mr Dolan has a theory which is one of many and at least you folks listen and opened mind is healthy one. He trying to earn a living can't blame him in that fact. Just remember many folks find his work interesting and his published a few books. Good on Mr Dolan.
and opened mind is healthy one. He trying to earn a living can't blame him in that fact. Just remember many folks find his work interesting and his published a few books. Good on Mr Dolan.