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October 3, 2010 Show - Final Events



Nick Redfern

Paranormal Novice
The release of the story by the AFOSI defies explanation. It paints the lot of them in a bad light to say the least. Of course they could deny the entire affair and say the Nick Redfern never spoke to them. The FOIA documents and copies of documents given to him by C.E. members are hard to explain away however. It would be a different matter if this got some serious news coverage but then again would it? It's so "out-there" who can believe that a government "think tank" could come to such conclusions and plans of action? It's just all so *$&@ing incredible.

They would have a hard time denying it because - as I have noted at UFOMystic - the call-number was not blocked on my phone. Someone clearly wanted the story out there - regardless of its validity or otherwise. And, although it's admitted speculation on my part, i don't believe the fact that the number wasn't withheld was a mistake. These people aren't that stupid. Somewhere, I believe, there was an agenda in all this.

The FOIA docs are indeed interesting, particularly so the ones on Ruth Montgomery (official FBI docs), that do lend deep credence to the claims that the C.E. spoke with her.

---------- Post added at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------

So far, given what we know...it's conceivably true history that a small group of like-minded fundamentalist bed-wetters came together under a shared concept. Until we know more, I agree that it's probably true. Half of Europe spent decades under the rule of people with similar beliefs (as in demons and devils etc) so is it really that unbelievable?

The important thing to remember too is that the only reason I was able to pursue the C.E. story was because Ray Boeche had been contacted by people in the DoD way back in 1991 who were working on this demonic project.

In other words: if it had been fed to me and no-one else, I would be inclined to think it might be totally bogus. But that Ray was told the very same things (the Parsons connection etc) nearly 20 years ago leads me to believe your last point is correct - that this was a small fundamentalist type group that came to this conclusion based on belief.

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 PM ----------

I'm sure there was plenty of things that Nick accumulated on this story that didn't make it into the book. It would be cool to hear what some of those things were.

There were a few (but literally only a few) - such as a belief that the really weird Men in Black were a differenty "heirarchy" of demon; rumors of human sacrifice involved in some aspect of the story as it related to attempts by a rival group to contact and "deal" with these entities; and a classified report on Djinns, about which (frustratingly!) I could not uncover a thing, which makes me wonder why it was even brought up.

---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------

I've just checked the book on Amazon and thought it would be great if Nick sells this book in digital format as well, let's say as a PDF file on service like http://www.scribd.com I can't decide either to wait till it will be available for Kindle or buy a paperback version now ::)

Hey Artyom

I hope that the book gets various formats; however, that's down to the publisher, but hopefully it will have several formats.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
In other words: if it had been fed to me and no-one else, I would be inclined to think it might be totally bogus. But that Ray was told the very same things (the Parsons connection etc) nearly 20 years ago leads me to believe your last point is correct - that this was a small fundamentalist type group that came to this conclusion based on belief.

How far fetched is it to believe that the Condon Committee's conclusions were shaped by the same bias ? the same fundamentalist mindset ?

What influence does the evangelical lobby have on the US government in regards to the UFO phenomena and the cognitive shockwave it needs to avoid at all cost through non-disclosure ;) ... (would make a great book subject by the way :D) ?

Is the ETH a direct threat to christian fundamentalist ideology ?
 

Nick Redfern

Paranormal Novice
Saucerwench:

You wrote: "I have a questi0on for you who despise, with a vengeance, Western Christianity. Do you fantasy at night (..Ya know.....) about the tall and handsome Osama Bin Laden? Just between us girls."

Oddly, I can't find the link to the original message now - maybe you deleted it.

Anyway, no I don't despise Western Christianity. I don't mind what religious beliefs anyone holds or doesn't hold, whether they may be Christians, Buddhists or whatever - just as long as they don't force their views on others. It's the arrogance of someone saying their religion is right and everyone else's is wrong that I strongly disagree with.

And what I DO despise is when people use religion to manipulate and control other people via fear and guilt. Western Christianity is very good at doing this. Fundamentalist Christianity is now getting an iron-grip on the US military - which is an area in which it should play no role at all.

So, that's what I despise: the way certain figures use Christianity as a tool of manipulation.

My fantasies? They often revolve around my wife getting it on with Abby from NCIS...
 

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
Nick, did you get the impression that members of this 'group' are mostly 'elderly' (f.e. above 60), and if so, do they at all think further than their own lives ? Are there people that will continue in their path ?
I also wonder just how deep their knowledge in 'occult' traditions is. You mentioned their ideas about Babylonian times, I'm just wondering what they have/had to say (if anything at all) about todays understanding of the 'Occult' (wishywashy-term).
 

CapnG

Devil's Advocate
Skull-And-Bones types, sacrificing the child efigy to the Owl God Molek < Probably misspelled, sorry...) (I'm not in a mood to carefully spellcheck just now)

A) For future reference it's "Molech" although I have also seen it spelled "Molach". Depends on the scholar.

B) Molech's not an owl, he's a bull-headed human like a minotaur. Near as I can tell from my own research this "Molech is an owl" thing is a 100% fabrication on the part of Alex Jones to support his belief that Bohemian Grove is a satanic cult and not simply a private camping party for over-grown frat-boys and gay hookers.

I really enjoyed the show this week. I kinda knew most of what Nick was talking about from the other end, as it were. There's a series of "documentaries" on the web in various places called things like "Secret Space" and "Alien anitchrist" which cover these topics as if they were totally real and accurate (while the documentaries themselves consist of roughly 99% bullshit by volume). Look for them in the usual places if you're interested though, they're highly dramatic and entertaining in a "Is he serious?" kind of way.

I've always kind of liked the "alien soul collectors" idea in a morbid, defeatist sort of way. All our hopes and dreams an illusion, our "souls" simply a stored amount of energy to be harvested and depleted at death. It would serve us right for being such a pompous species. It would also go a long way to explaining why every religion on earth considers suicide the greatest of all sins.
 

Nick Redfern

Paranormal Novice
Nick, did you get the impression that members of this 'group' are mostly 'elderly' (f.e. above 60), and if so, do they at all think further than their own lives ? Are there people that will continue in their path ?
I also wonder just how deep their knowledge in 'occult' traditions is. You mentioned their ideas about Babylonian times, I'm just wondering what they have/had to say (if anything at all) about todays understanding of the 'Occult' (wishywashy-term).


Richard Duke, the first interviewee, was in his 80s. Robert Manners, another cited in the book, was maybe 50 or a bit less.

It's very difficult to get a handle on their general age as a group and whether others are continuing on, for the following reason: although I do believe I got hold of a fairly large body of data on the Collins Elite, it's clear there are big gaps in the story - particularly in the 1960s, late 1970s, mid-to-late 1980s, and early-to-late 1990s.

So, i sort of liken it to trying to write a full history of the entire CIA, when you only have about 12 or 13 retired CIA agents to interview. You could only ever hope to get part of the story, and I believe that's what's happened here. If I've got even 10 percent of what they did, I'd be more than surprised.

Unfortunately, I know nothing of their views on current occult views/ideas etc. Although I get the impression they were very much cocooned in their own views and beliefs, so that may (and I stress may, as it's admitted speculation on my part) have a bearing on what they are looking at, or are not looking at today.
 

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
Thanks Nick, I said that before on this board, but the book is just fascinating.

I 'dabble' in the Occult field somewhat and I guess I also made my mind up in a sense contrary to 'their' belief system, what really fascinated me is that that mindset was formed at all and even culminated in the forming of that group.

Thanks again for the swift answer and truly interesting book.

Rock on \m/
 

Nick Redfern

Paranormal Novice
Thanks Nick, I said that before on this board, but the book is just fascinating.

I 'dabble' in the Occult field somewhat and I guess I also made my mind up in a sense contrary to 'their' belief system, what really fascinated me is that that mindset was formed at all and even culminated in the forming of that group.

Thanks again for the swift answer and truly interesting book.

Rock on \m/


It's pretty clear to me that their conclusions were belief-driven, and lacking in hard evidence of anything much at all. Then again, that accounts for all the world's religions too. They are all based on faith. And faith is belief without evidence.

And, of course, Governments have been known to fund unusual topics from time to time. There are declassified U.S. Army files from the 1950s on trying to determine if dogs could use ESP to find landmines. There are official WW2 files from the British Police Force using dowswers to find bodies buried under the rubble caused by Hitler's bombs. And there are British Government files on Crop Circles. In other words, the official world often sponsors research into alternative areas, if they perceive maybe some advantage from doing so!
 

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
The scary thing in all that is that belief can indeed be that powerful. The religious right seems to be rising in the U.S. in the last years too (the only movie that truly scared me in these last years was 'Jesus Camp'), though I can't really evaluate that.

The Government tie-in really does mystify me, but as you wrote, "Governments have been known to fund unusual topics from time to time".
Have you ever looked into the theories of Austin Osman Spare ? All goes back to Freud and Jung and the idea of a collective unconscious I think.
That's one thing that actually makes me want to drink a beer on 01.01.2013. or was that 22.12.2012 ? Beer anyways.
 

Kandinsky

Curious Cat
And what I DO despise is when people use religion to manipulate and control other people via fear and guilt. Western Christianity is very good at doing this. Fundamentalist Christianity is now getting an iron-grip on the US military - which is an area in which it should play no role at all.

So, that's what I despise: the way certain figures use Christianity as a tool of manipulation..

Definitely. I don't know to what extent it preceded Bush and 9/11, but the religious air that's increasingly attached itself to US forces is unnecessary. Secular politics is being diluted with religious justifications and the military is naturally in the same backwash. Tony Blair has pulled Britain along in the wake. It's all bullshit and we get back to having politics and armed forces as secular as possible under law.

Those who don't should be crucified....(joke)

(little rant there...carry on) :)
 

Ron Collins

Curiously Confused
Definitely. I don't know to what extent it preceded Bush and 9/11, but the religious air that's increasingly attached itself to US forces is unnecessary. Secular politics is being diluted with religious justifications and the military is naturally in the same backwash. Tony Blair has pulled Britain along in the wake. It's all bullshit and we get back to having politics and armed forces as secular as possible under law.

Those who don't should be crucified....(joke)

(little rant there...carry on) :)

There is a very well documented history of religion being an integral part of the U.S. military. The old regime military was the "kill people and break things" war machine. This was before CNN and imbedded reporting. Couple this with the complex and counter-intuitive rules of engagement and you have a bunch of scared and confused kids with guns. Religion is viewed as a grounding mechanism, moral compass justification for the ROE, and stage 1 counseling. You see an emphasis now because we have a large number of troops in hot zones or recently returned from hot zones. Give it 5 years and you will see the emphasis decline.

However, I would argue that our culture places massive importance on teaching youth that violence is wrong. In fact we as Americans and indeed western culture as a whole have a very complex idea of what is right and wrong. These 18-24 year olds are asked to obey complex rules that put them needlessly in harms way before ultimately applying deadly force. I would argue that, regardless your view on religion, it may be a very important aspect of military life for a very long time to come simply because it promotes a few things essential for soldiering.

1) It helps them cope with the fear of dying. The idea of an "afterlife" is a good PR move. It says, that it is OK that i or my buddy dies because they or I will be in a better place.... You get the picture.

2) Justification for killing an enemy. By including the "God" figure into the concepts of defending your country it links the two in the soldiers mind. Therefore, this supreme being "wants" them to kill the enemy. Therefore, they have instant justification in breaking both societally accepted behavior and contradictory religious doctrine.

3) Removal of guilt via absolution. Granted this is mostly confined to the Catholics. But, they represent a majority of practiced religions in the U.S. military. With this soldiers can start fresh with conscious cleared.

I am sure that there are more, but my point is simply that religion is too ingrained in the soldier to remove. Even if you could, yhou wouldn't want to. It is too good a system for dealing with the emotional health of the soldier.
 

CapnG

Devil's Advocate
I am sure that there are more, but my point is simply that religion is too ingrained in the soldier to remove. Even if you could, yhou wouldn't want to. It is too good a system for dealing with the emotional health of the soldier.

That's an interesting supposition, Ron. If we take for example the average soviet soldier during the cold war who was (at least in theory) an atheist, they obviously still managed to get on with the business of soldiering. That would imply religion isn't necessarily necessary in military service. BUT you could also get around that of course by saying roughly the same precepts apply, as the soviets essentially put the state in the "god box" and replaced sin with failure.
 

stphrz

Stuffed Tiger
That's an interesting supposition, Ron. If we take for example the average soviet soldier during the cold war who was (at least in theory) an atheist, they obviously still managed to get on with the business of soldiering. That would imply religion isn't necessarily necessary in military service. BUT you could also get around that of course by saying roughly the same precepts apply, as the soviets essentially put the state in the "god box" and replaced sin with failure.
Or you could just not ask young kids to go into harms way and do terrible things unless it is absolutely necessary. You know, to defend themselves and theirs against a real threat. Real justice like defending a group of innocent defensless people against genocide (like in WW 2). If you can tell them truthfully the real good reasons they need to do what they do they will step up. If you need to use religion (or statism for that matter) as justification, to get them to essentially do the dirty work of a nation, well, that's what I find horrifying.
 

CapnG

Devil's Advocate
If you need to use religion (or statism for that matter) as justification, to get them to essentially do the dirty work of a nation, well, that's what I find horrifying.

And if they should come with that justification already "pre-installed" before they enlist, what then...? You can't really blame the military for co-opting it. When it becomes part of basic training on the other hand, THEN it's flat-out indoctrination and that's when you have to start paying attention.
 

Shaunduhpostman

Paranormal Novice
Really enjoyed the show as I always love hearing what Nick Redfern is up to. I found a couple links to some interesting articles for anyone interested in a bit more about the Lam Crowley entity and extraterrestrials. The first goes into a bit more gory detail about the contact.

http://www.boudillion.com/lam/lam.htm

The second link has some really interesting statements from more recent OTO (Crowley's organization) leader Kenneth Grant that they now actually regard the Lam entity as being specifically extraterrestrial.

http://www.excludedmiddle.com/LAMstatement.html

Also, a kind of fun connection to consider occurred to me today that the Vril Society is alledged to have been founded in the same year that Crowley made contact with the Lam entity, which was 1917.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
These people aren't that stupid. Somewhere, I believe, there was an agenda in all this.

I agree with you there. I find that to be the most interesting and compelling bit about this whole business. Why on Earth has this fantastic and incredible story been so openly and blatantly released? What purpose can be served by it? Who benefits? Who is diminished by it? Could this be related to a as yet uncorrelated event or program?
 

stphrz

Stuffed Tiger
And if they should come with that justification already "pre-installed" before they enlist, what then...? You can't really blame the military for co-opting it. When it becomes part of basic training on the other hand, THEN it's flat-out indoctrination and that's when you have to start paying attention.
Yes, I really can and do blame the military.

They are being indoctrinated in basic training. Maybe not with Jesus but with something. I see little difference.

Any way you look at it, it's cynically using people as means to an end. In this case, a bloody end. This is something both religion and the military share.

It's pretty hard to get a decent war going if you have to earn things like, trust and obedience rather than just demand them. And it's that same mentality the general population uses to isolate itself from the full costs of the wars it engages in. Vets are not given anywhere near their due. We ought to do way better by them then we are. I mean, really care for them in concrete ways. Praise is hollow.
 
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