November 12, 2017 — MUFON's Jan C. Harzan

[Gene Steinberg]

MUFON has been under fire lately, resulting in the departure of several officials, and a growing skepticism about its approach that may focus more on boosting membership and attendance at its symposiums and less on doing solid UFO research.

This interview with Harzan also covers on the group's work and pressing issues in the field, but we devoted about a third of the episode to MUFON's organizational matters.

Our interview with Greg Bishop in After The Paracast this week also, in part, focuses on the value of UFO groups in the 21st century.

After The Paracast is an exclusive feature of The Paracast+. For more information, please check: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

 

[wwkirk]

The interview was more cordial than may have been expected.
Jan presides over the "new" MUFON. It's new because the space program conference was their biggest yet. They are never turning back.

 

[wwkirk]

Btw, is Usual Suspect on strike?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

The interview was more cordial than may have been expected.
Jan presides over the "new" MUFON. It's new because the space program conference was their biggest yet. They are never turning back.

I think we got him to admit what he had to admit without badgering him about it. Chris is a long-time friend of Jan's, so I had to make sure we got the points in without seeming adversarial about it.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

At the risk of ruffling some feathers...

In the future, if Chris O'Brien is going to have a conflict-of-interest with a guest, you should try to bring in a replacement co-host. Whereas I appreciated Chris' transparency at the beginning of the Harzan episode, clearly a guest co-host like Paul Kimball, or even Randall, if he's speaking to you yet, would have been better sidekicks on this go-around in order to hold Harzan more firmly accountable for the current state of MUFON and its recent controversies.

Look, I don't expect guests to be browbeaten into submission, or until they hang up in frustration, but Jan Harzan was given relatively gentle treatment while in the arena, in my opinion, especially given the strong words both you and Chris have shared about the organization on air and in the forums, in the past.

Some examples:

When discussing the 12 guest participants at the 2017 Symposium, it was stated by Harzan, in response to the hosts questioning the veracity and believability of some speakers, that "a couple" may be unverifiable but that they had a lot of scientists too. First of all 25% of their speakers were bullshit, not a couple - Salla, Goode, Basiago, Tompkins (I'll give Dolan a pass). Harzan should have been asked to directly comment, specifically, about each of those participant's bullshit stories that they are peddling. Make him go on record as to what he really thinks. As an aside, Chris' comment that Tompkins is "interesting" was also disturbing. Have you actually read the guy's book? I have. It's fucking ridiculous. I have no idea why Nick Redfern was an associate editor on that project either because, fanciful tales of frequent debauchery with Nordic alien secretaries/spies notwithstanding, the book was very poorly edited, with repeating similar chapters and a somewhat stream-of-consciousness chronology making it hard to follow at times. Nevermind that the basic underlying premise of reproducing alien craft is baseless and lacks zero proof.

How about making Harzan revisit and comment on Ventre and what the organization's specific policy was/is now about hate speech? Again, make him explain and go on record. I mean, is Ventre still associated in any way with the organization? How about board member JZ Knight's racist, homophobic and anti-semitic drunken rants during some of her lectures that have been available online since 2012? I bet he's still taking her $5K a year to be on the Board. I don't care if he's talked to her or not. Is that someone he wants associated with the organization?

I also think the recent resignations of several well-respected, long time members was barely discussed, with Harzan off-handedly mentioning some more "conservative" members leaving over the symposium agenda. What a minimization of the internal controversy that lead to some of the most long term and admired members resigning in disgust. Did the hosts follow up on this aspect at all? Disappointingly, no.

Harzan is clearly a nice guy. He comes off as affable and I understand that it can be hard to press someone when they are so pleasant, and in Chris' case, a long time friend and supporter. Bummer. That was the job at hand. This episode was more like a Trump visit to Fox & Friends, complete with Chris actually pimping himself to participate in the 2018 MUFON Symposium in Philly next year. WHAT?!

I understand you can't please all of the people all of the time. I certainly was not pleased this time around. "Everyone is a critic!" you think to yourself. I certainly am in this case. It comes with the territory as hosts of a show. I just think that you, Chris and many recent guests have been very critical and vocal on the show about MUFON and its myriad problems, but when the head of the organization finally showed up, you pretty much soft-balled the interview. This one's not going down as a classic, in my book. Looking forward to next week's episode.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

The long and short is that Harzan pretty much told you where he's at.

It costs money to keep an organization of that size running with a full-time staff and office.

He's a doe-eyed believer.

Mix it all up in one big pot and you'll see what MUFON has become. It will not change because we tell them to change, so long as people keep joining and renewing.

There may not be a valid business plan for a large mainstream UFO organization without allowing science to leave the building.

How many other organizations have survived over the decades?

It's not what we want, and most of you wouldn't want to sacrifice your principles to keep such an organization active. But it's not as if browbeating him into submission would have any value anymore.

 

[pigfarmer]

I suppose this is where I hang the ‘kick me’ sign. I was outside raking leaves listening to it and my neighbors were probably wondering why I was muttering like that. You lost me about an hour in when I heard:

Speculation about humans not being indigenous to Earth. I bet most high school science teachers could swat that one.

Breakaway civilizations. The slightest shred of real proof is …. where exactly?

Time travel/teleportation watches. Right-o. I’ll wait for the iPhone XXX for that app.

Reptilians. What – that only sounds nuts when David Icke talks about them?

Yet more endless carping about what other groups are doing wrong.

I certainly didn’t know Ben Rich but think that famous quote was taken out of context and has become a convenient touchstone for conspiracy theorists. If he were serious what could his possible motivation be for saying it? Apparently repeatedly.

Secret space programs. No stretch there, of course there is a form of one as part of our national defense and we should be happy to have it. It just doesn’t involve Mars or warp drive. The US still flies a form of the U2. The F117 was not a ‘spy plane’ it’s a fighter bomber and the minute it was used publicly the magic wore off and ways to shoot them down were discovered. They’re old – imagine what replaced them we don’t know about. Have a look at the Boeing X-37. You want to consider really strange stuff that’s been speculated about there were ‘70s vintage Popular Science articles regarding advanced lighter than air ships. I recently heard a podcast – and God help me I can’t remember which one, probably Reuters War College or something similar – suggesting that the successor to the B-2 will be a suite of manned and unmanned vehicles which are no doubt exotic to say the least. If you want to speculate you might as well be familiar with what the real deal is. Too many assumptions.

I believe that truly advanced technology of unknown origin IS being accurately reported in a very few cases. I like podcasts like this because without it I probably wouldn’t have heard of the Nimitz encounter. Fascinating to say the least. But it’s worth bearing in mind what Kevin Randle so recently pointed out; things are never quite exactly what they seem to be and always bear a closer look before we draw esoteric conclusions.

Finally, Trump is like a rash on my *** that I desperately wish I had a medicated lotion to get rid of – but I listen to podcasts to get AWAY from all that nonsense. And I’ll say the say the same for Hillary and her UAP foolishness too. She’s the opposite side of the same coin. They would both feed live kittens and puppies into an incinerator if it would get them what they want. If social discourse has become toxic we have ourselves to blame first.

Ya wanna ‘move the ball forward’ this ain’t going to get it done. I always say ’deal with the problem you actually have not the one you would like to.’

BTW – Chris I promise you if I hit Mega Millions tomorrow I’d fully fund that camera project. Sounds like a good idea but naively – I know nothing about startups or fundraising – why not a grassroots funding effort? Not snarky – just curious.

Whew. I feel better now. If I were just being dismissive out of hand I could have just deleted this episode and said nothing.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Old news. If I stopped him at every comment I might question, wed get nowhere fast. We pushed the main issues and you know his excuses. Remember that it costs money to run MUFIN and that explains it all.

 

[pigfarmer]

Old news. If I stopped him at every comment I might question, wed get nowhere fast. We pushed the main issues and you know his excuses. Remember that it costs money to run MUFIN and that explains it all.

I have no idea what Jan’s background is but it seems MUFON is in good hands. I heard pure Managerspeke. Their big accomplishment in all these years has been maintaining MUFON and he seems to have brought organization in the past few.

Any organization in this arena is like flipping on the porchlight. You can’t pick & choose what shows up only deal with what does. To that end I think he was very direct.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

Old news. If I stopped him at every comment I might question, wed get nowhere fast. We pushed the main issues and you know his excuses. Remember that it costs money to run MUFIN and that explains it all.

Newsflash Gene: The episode was bullshit and it absolutely went nowhere fast. Your post-episode forum response apologist tendencies aside, what the hell was the point in even having Harzan on if you're not going to follow through and have him adequately and fully address the major issues? You have periodically cast yourself on previous shows as a bit of a journalist in your varied work history past. Where was the "journalist Gene" who got fired from the radio station for asking direct and inconvenient questions? Lots of previous criticisms and comments made on past episodes simply seemed to evaporate, or be minimized, once Harzan came on the show. I guess Chris' backpedaling during the intro should have been a dead-giveaway as to what we were going to experience. Look, I get it, in the larger scheme of things, this is just an entertainment podcast which features hosts and guests cheerily talking about the paranormal. It's not some powerhouse investigative journalism effort committed to asking and getting answers to tough or difficult questions. I was simply hoping for more and was ultimately left wanting. I'll get over it. My criticisms should be viewed as primarily constructive in nature and not a personal attack on you or Chris..

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Newsflash Chris: I think Harzan fully understands the issues we are concerned about. And Chris did sound off on a few things despite his long-term friendship with Harzan. You didn't notice?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Let me just toss this out, because it's a very simple concept.

MUFON's management made a decision that, in order to boost memberships and attendance at its symposiums, it has to add entertainment value to its public face. Thus follows Hangar 1, the emphasis on what State Directors and investigators can bring to the organization in terms of revenue, and the focus on sensationalism at the 2017 symposium.

Harzan's statement about having to pay for staff, office, etc., tells you all you need to know.

The rest is window dressing. I focused a third of the episode on the organizational issues, but there you have it.

The real question we should ask is whether it's even possible to run a scientific UFO group on a large scale anymore without succumbing to the need to pander to the audience to keep revenues up. We don't need to browbeat Harzan into submission to get there.

Is it possible?

The MUFON example indicates to me that it isn't. The real UFO research might best be done by small pockets of investigators and researchers who don't have to worry about memberships, monthly newsletters, staffing and revenue.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Newsflash Chris: I think Harzan fully understands the issues we are concerned about. And Chris did sound off on a few things despite his long-term friendship with Harzan. You didn't notice?

I nailed him good on several points, I was polite about it, but I got strident several times. But that doesn't matter because I didn't attempt to rip out his jugular ala Beidny. Can't win for losing. Doesn't matter what we do, or how we do it, someone's gonna take as to task... I've known the guy for almost 20 years! How would YOU interview someone you've known for 20 years? Someone that has enthusiastically supported your work and helped raise $$$ for your project?

Oh, Jan worked in upper management at IBM for many years...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Yes, as I wrote in the liner notes, "Harzan is a 37-year veteran at IBM, and holds a B.S. in Nuclear Engineering."

And don't forget, Biedny very rarely attempted to rip out jugulars over the four years he was on The Paracast. It's just that the very few occasions where he did were granted more status than they probably deserved. In the old days, talk show pioneer Long John Nebel only rarely went after a guest, but when he did it supplanted all the kowtowing he did to the crazies.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

I nailed him good on several points, I was polite about it, but I got strident several times. But that doesn't matter because I didn't attempt to rip out his jugular ala Beidny. Can't win for losing. Doesn't matter what we do, or how we do it, someone's gonna take as to task... I've known the guy for almost 20 years! How would YOU interview someone you've known for 20 years? Someone that has enthusiastically supported your work and helped raise $$$ for your project?

Oh, Jan worked in upper management at IBM for many years...

I find it rather disingenuous for you to color yourself as the "victim" of unfair criticism when you began the show with a rather sweeping disclaimer that it was going to be Gene's job to be tough because you have a "relationship" with Harzan. I also think it's willful misdirection to imply that what I was criticizing you and Gene for was that you didn't "rip his jugular" out, when I acknowledged quite the contrary in my original comment about the episode. There was a perfectly respectful, but firm and thorough approach, with detailed follow up, that I simply feel, in my singular opinion, was not taken and that is what I clearly expressed. I also made no reference to needing to "nail" Harzan on any given issue, I was merely looking for the hosts to hold him accountable by being asked, and pressed, if necessary, to fully explain actions, decisions, participants, etc. that we have all had questions about on the show and in the forum. My critique of the hosts' performance repeatedly focused on getting Harzan to fully engage on several of the major issues in detail, and not be let off the hook with pat or insufficient (in my mind) answers, which I feel he was allowed to do.

I also suggested, at the very beginning of my original comment about this episode, that perhaps it was not the best choice to have you participate in this particular show given your long-standing relationship with the guest. A guest host would clearly have been a better choice. I don't fault you one bit for not wanting to possibly have to get confrontational with a longtime colleague and friend. It was a conflict of interest and it showed, quite frankly. You should have never have been put in that position. Whatever, it was what it was. The Paracast is not 60 Minutes. You'll go back to talking about aliens, UFOs and cryptoids next week and all will be well.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Being confrontational in this case would not have accomplished anything. The issues are clear-cut, as is the current direction of MUFON.

No matter what we do, Harzan will not admit that his approach is wrong. He is trying to maximize income for MUFON with an emphasis on entertainment. What else do you need to know at this point?

So let's agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Take notes Gene...He has made several relevant points.

But, in the meantime, what peeves me most is the fact that CJ will not acknowledge that I DID ask probing questions and I DID drill down on several important points that included: the choice of topic, the choice of speakers and other issues. Maybe if you acknowledged this, I wouldn't feel slighted (?) But I do feel slighted.

That said, thank you for your comments and oh here's an idea! This so-called "job" is EASY, right? Anyone can do it! Let's get YOU to be a guest host for a show guest of YOUR choosing. I'll take notes and critique YOUR approach, YOUR demeanor, YOUR questions and YOUR followups, YOUR tone and YOUR relationship w/ the guest! We'll all have fun after the show critiquing each others' critiques and performances, etc...

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

Oh, I see, we’re pulling out the good old sarcasm card. You would prefer that no criticisms be leveled in the forum, as the hosts are clearly above such scrutiny. As a listener and paying subscriber, it is unfair of me to share any feedback about a given show, no matter how measured or mild. However, if I do, I need to make sure that it is offset with an equal amount of praise acknowledging a job well done. No one said choosing to be the host of a podcast would be all rainbows and unicorns. You apparently only want to hear from listeners when it’s a pat on the head or a hearty “atta boy.” Duly noted. Reading your post, one would get the impression that as a longtime listener and forum contributor, I’ve never complimented or had anything nice to say about the show, or the hosts, or you specifically, in the past. The implication being I’ve just contributed a constant stream of unwarranted and undeserved criticisms in the forum and should come on a show as a guest host to take some of my own medicine and see how I like it! I see my words further being twisted to be accused that I clearly don’t appreciate how difficult of a “job” hosting a podcast is, as if anywhere in my previous comments I implied anything of the sort.

Look, I get that being critiqued on something that one does essentially for free and generally for “the love of the game” can be frustrating. I’m not oblivious to all the hard work you and Gene put into the show. I show my support and love of the show and for the hosts financially, by being a yearly subscriber, and occasionally throwing some extra bucks the show’s way via the “donate” button when I can. I have directly complimented and expressed my respect and admiration for you, specifically, in a recent post, as well as in the past. I’m sorry if your feelings are bruised. I don’t feel happy about our having this testy exchange simply because I expressed some displeasure with how Harzan was handled. I’m not someone who seeks out or enjoys conflict but I do pride myself on being a straightforward and transparent person, in life and in the forum. If you would prefer, I can certainly choose the route Burnt State, Usual Suspect and some others have taken and keep quiet and participate less, if that’s where we’re at. Regardless of this spat, I apologize if you feel my feedback was inaccurate, unfair, unwarranted, or a personal attack on you in any way. I still love you.

Also, to be clear, if, and when, I choose of my own volition start or join a podcast as a guest, I fully expect that there would be a lot of people lining up to critique and complain about my performance. That, to me, is simply something one has to expect. I’d like to think I could live with it, as long as it didn’t get personal. As Gene said, agree to disagree and let’s move on. I certainly hope we can.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

... Regardless of this spat, I apologize if you feel my feedback was inaccurate, unfair, unwarranted, or a personal attack on you in any way. I still love you. Also, to be clear, if, and when, I choose of my own volition start or join a podcast as a guest, I fully expect that there would be a lot of people lining up to critique and complain about my performance. That, to me, is simply something one has to expect. I’d like to think I could live with it, as long as it didn’t get personal. As Gene said, agree to disagree and let’s move on. I certainly hope we can.

I'm simply tired of constantly being criticized, second guessed, and vilified for whatever reason. It gets old after awhile and I sure as hell ain't getting paid enough to stand up and play the target. I'm sorry if you think I overreacted. My invitation for you to participate in ANY show of your choosing was sincere. Since you seem to have a problem w/ my role here in some episodes (recuse myself?!) the invitation is open for you to jump in at any time and get involved. FYI: a sizable percentage of guests we have on the show I've known for years. This job ain't easy, we just make it look like it is...

 

[Walter Bosley]

You know, the fact is that MUFON doesn't belong to any of us. It's a private organization and its leadership can make it whatever they want it to be. Sure, members will come and go as an organization changes, but MUFON will have to weather that like any other. It also has to expect the criticism if it intends to claim to be something it clearly isn't, but again MUFON is not public property. I think some of the people and things it is backing are less than reputable but if people want to give them money for championing these things and providing them a stage, that is indeed their business.

There is going to be no fighting the Corey Goodes and David Wilcocks and the Tom DeLonges and their ilk for a while. They have money behind them and they're being given the spotlight. Our ranting will not change that. The critical mass of the UFO community loves its stars and fantasies. These guys will dominate for the next couple of years, maybe five, and that's just the way it will be. MUFON leadership clearly sees this as the trend to follow. It's their organization to do with as they please. I would like to see their disenfranchised members form a new group in a different spirit.