Livingston UFO Encounter 1979

[Spectre73]

This is one of my favourite UFO cases. It took place in 1979 and not too far from were I live.
I'm not sure how well known this case is in the US so would be good to get some feedback from you guys.

It involved a park Ranger Robert Taylor. He died over a decade ago now and stuck to his testimony until his death.

A WW2 vet he was well respected in the local community. A fascinating and bizarre case. Please find the documentary from you tube below.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Great case and the police were happy to display the ripped trousers to the media while stating they considered the witness was very honest and respected in the community.
If I remember correctly, there as a strange gas involved, bit like Cisco Grove incident.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

It reminds of the Bentwaters Case and the radar sightings of the objects . Also the sightings by plilots flying out of the UK at the same time.

 

[Spectre73]

Great case and the police were happy to display the ripped trousers to the media while stating they considered the witness was very honest and respected in the community.
If I remember correctly, there as a strange gas involved, bit like Cisco Grove incident.

That's correct Goggs.

For me this is more fascinating that the Zamora incident.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

That's correct Goggs.

For me this is more fascinating that the Zamora incident.

I don't know if I totally agree with that statement, but of course it's a matter of personal choice and anyway, there isn't enough between the two cases, in terms of being good cases, to even care about.
Another detail that has surfaced in my mind is the spikes on the sphere and that for some time after, there were holes in the ground that would correspond with such spikes on a rotating sphere.

Don't you think that there are cases in Ufology that for some reason are not at the forefront of one's mind but when remembered, quickly sorted into a personal 'top ten' and then for a while we forget them until reminded. For me, Livingstone is just such a case and when put on the spot to name cases, it just never springs to mind for me, when it should especially because of the quality and for us, proximity.

It's like making mental notes to buy music but when you go to actually buy music, the mind goes blank!

 

[Spectre73]

Yes. There were holes in the ground left from the spikes on the spheres. There were also indentations on the ground made by the object.
If I remember correctly it was claimed that these had been the marks made by scaffolding that had been used recently. But it transpired that the said scaffolding had been used in a different area.

Another point was raised as to why no one else had seen this object land (the incident took place in the Dechmont Woods near the busy M8 motorway)
But as Mr Taylor pointed out at times the object was semi-transparent.

I completely agree and the music analogy is a good one. It's the same when I'm asked "what's your favourite movies", there are always classics I forget to mention!

 

[Trajanus]

For me this is more fascinating that the Zamora incident.

Better known as the Socorro case. But I agree. There was physical evidence in both cases and credible witnesses but Taylor got a lot closer to the phenomenon and interacted with it even if the interaction wasn't very pleasant..

 

[Spectre73]

Yes, my mistake Trajanus. Socorro case as it's known

I love that case, it's fascinating also. Living not far from Livingstone and the fact I pass the area makes it a fave of mine.

 

[SiGiL]

The video was painful to watch (it actually put me to sleep) but interesting credible case non the less. That debunker was an absolute clown. His theory was absolutely absurd, along with his epileptic fit and an "astronomical mirage" lol This dude is just making stuff up to try to explain the unexplained. He completely failed. That made it worth watching - seeing that guy fail so bad was quite entertaining.

 

[Spectre73]

Yes I thought the explanation from the debunker was hilarious. Apparently Venus (I think it was Venus) was not in the correct position for his "astronomical mirage" theory anyhow!

And the torn trousers? oh he done that earlier and forgot !!

 

[Trajanus]

The video was painful to watch (it actually put me to sleep) but interesting credible case non the less. That debunker was an absolute clown. His theory was absolutely absurd, along with his epileptic fit and an "astronomical mirage" lol This dude is just making stuff up to try to explain the unexplained. He completely failed. That made it worth watching - seeing that guy fail so bad was quite entertaining.

Some time ago, the MUFON State Director around here theorized the government deliberately put out nonsense explanations for Roswell (e.g.crash dummies) knowing they'd be debunked; it was, he said, subtle preparation for eventual disclosure. It seems the same may apply to a large number of cases including this '79 one.

 

[Burnt State]

this is also a personal favourite for the sheer surrealism of the report. the spiked balls that tried to attack him are really unprecedented and a wonderfully wicked feature to the entire story told by a man in complete bewilderment. there have been many theories proposed as to what could have resulted in this case, the only UFO case to be subject of a criminal investigation in the UK -it's an incredible tale that has physical evidence attached to it and a man who was in incredible distress.

one of the possible explanations of this case proposed by David Slater looks at Belladonna as the cause of the experience and also addresses the issue of the irregular track marks in the field that are supposed to represent regular even tracks of the objects that came after him as he described them. this suggests that the physical evidence is in fact discontinuous from the actual event as described and perhaps are two very disconnected aspects of reality being connected for the sake of fulfilling Taylor's narrative. Slater's proposal is quite convincing actually and worth the read for the sheer detailed levels of research completed by the man. At the very least it is an excellent look at this bizarre story - it just resonates with description of this very unique case. the Belladonna proposal also answers to how the spiked balls could have been seen. it's a great piece of writing.

Musings on Anomalous Culture: Spaceships, Spheres and the Devil's Herb

a much lesser and more irreverent proposal is found here: UFO Conjecture(s): The Robert Taylor 1979 UFO Encounter
there's a great comment chain there where i found this little gem from Bruce Duensing:

As an overview of the specifics as an aggregate sum, what your post's theme appears to be is pattern recognition, which of course then there is chaos theory, which Vallee has explored in what he calls the "physics of information, which then infers the connection between environmental information being bridged to an "observer effect." like the tale of the blind man and the elephant. The astrophysicist sees this perhaps as a energetic manifestation, the engineer as a process issue, the metaphysician as a Platonic archetype between material and immaterial as a third reconciling force, unrecognized by science. All of these are loaded perspectives and while all may bring something to the buffet, we have the sinking sense as a post editorial stance that these manifestations ( as the physics of information) there is a large hole in our ontology. I just posted links to Billy Cox and Lesley Kean provoking the consensus of averages, on their own fields,. One hopes this generates the heat needed from the ashes we keep alive. Best Wishes, and keep stirring the pot.

Bruce seems to be suggesting that this idea of pattern recognition, as an aspect of Taylor's experience, is something to be considered carefully along with the lack of words we have for such experiences, something that Jerome Clark frequently commented on. The 'experience anomaly,' as Clark would define this case, is one alive only in the testimony of the witness, even with the various physical evidentiary aspects. This is right up there with the Falcon Lake case in terms of physical damage and an outstanding solo tale.

 

[Trajanus]

Interesting. But did Taylor ever admit to touching/eating nightshade or did any physician he saw suggest it was the cause of his state of mind?

 

[Spectre73]

Great resources there Burnt State. The Belladonna suggestion is an interesting one. As an experienced Park Ranger I would imagine Taylor would be very much aware of the effects of such plants.

The trousers he was wearing were looked studied at the time and it was concluded that they had been torn by a downward cutting motion.

Sadly modern forensic scientific methods are not of use due to contamination.

Does anyone know the name of the Scottish investigator who has the trousers?

 

[Trajanus]

The Belladonna suggestion is an interesting one. As an experienced Park Ranger I would imagine Taylor would be very much aware of the effects of such plants.

Exactly. And did any investigators ask him if he had had it or recognize the symptoms?

 

[Spectre73]

He was examined by his family doctor.

I would have expected other noticeable symptoms associated with the consumption of deadly nightshade other than hallucinations.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I would imagine one would need to ingest a fair amount of a dangerous plant to be so affected and it is not something that is going to happen accidentally ? How often have you heard of people on Belladona -induced trips because they somehow got poisoned from the plant? Having taken my share of mushrooms etc I know most of these things take very deliberate action to set off.

 

[Trajanus]

He was examined by his family doctor.

I would have expected other noticeable symptoms associated with the consumption of deadly nightshade other than hallucinations.

Bottom line, the nightshade theory isn't very credible.

 

[Spectre73]

I don't think so. As Goggs says you can't accidentally eat the amount you would need for hallucination to be induced

 

[Burnt State]

I would imagine one would need to ingest a fair amount of a dangerous plant to be so affected and it is not something that is going to happen accidentally ? How often have you heard of people on Belladona -induced trips because they somehow got poisoned from the plant? Having taken my share of mushrooms etc I know most of these things take very deliberate action to set off.

Actually, from what i've read adult ingestion of only four berries can be lethal, and only crushing the leaves can in fact cause absorption through the skin producing dramatic effects. The elements of Taylor's account match extremely well with belladonna poisoning: the extreme thirst, smelling of strange odours, vivid hallucinations that are antagonistic and attacking, the fatigue, unconsciousness etc. all are well in keeping with this kind of a poisoning as per Slater's research - again it is very worth reading. All parts of this plant are highly toxic and it's not a stretch for someone in his position to perhaps have removed a collection of plants and absorbed them into his skin for surely he would know what deadly nightshade looks like. Now i still find this quite curious as i remove these plants from my own yard quite frequently with my bare hands and i've never thought twice about it as i always thought it was berry ingestion that was the main concern. but then i also think life is one long controlled hallucination so.... I also grow Monkshood as a feature in my yard and when i heard about a case in Ontario where a young man was mysteriously found dead literally lying in a field of Monskhood i relocated the plant to a place where the kids would not come into contact with it. It was believed that walking through the field was his fatal move. I will also today be going out to clear out all my deadly nightshade which i grow as a lark as it looks cool and i know my kids know never to eat its berries. But now that i know of their skin absorption through leaves alone i will be removing the rest of the plants with gloves.

What's also interesting about the hallucination angle is that it's supported by some other features which in include these storage tanks and a dog that could easily be transformed into the attacking sea mines in a hallucinatory state. Crawling on the ground following the hallucination could account for the tearing of the trousers which were only torn at each hip or while getting in and out of his vehicle as Slater theorizes. Another curious element is the nearby water dome which also could be a transformed hallucinatory moment as Taylor said his spherical ship looked like Saturn, had propellers stationed at even intervals around the main flange and that the top was almost transparent at times, the whole ship appearing to use some kind of camouflage. When you look at this water dome you can see how under a hallucination this could easily be transformed:

This image comes from another excellent site that debunks a book written about this case where the main theory is a heart attack or stroke that caused a hallucinatory like effect. But the debunking of this theory, which is quite sound, also has extremely thorough data about the encounter and excellent interview commentary and quotes from Taylor that are enough to allow any individual to start to make up their own mind about the case. I think that if you are looking for a prosaic explanation, knowing that Taylor is an upstanding citizen, certainly not prone to telling tall tales, the Belladonna hallucination is definitely the most likely and fits all the physical effects. The discontinuous bits of physical evidence could all be stringing together a series of dots that may in fact have no connection whatsoever despite UFOlogical history that might hold otherwise for this story. Whatever did happen, he believed it happened and drug experiences can definitely recreate reality and provide long lasting memories, especially the traumatic ones. Here's a link to a very detailed examination of the case, but i still highly recommend Slater's article as the best possible mundane explanation. Whether it's the truth or not remains unknown. A doctor's examination may not have picked up on diminished symptoms of the poisoning following his recovery and return home.
An extraordinary memory failure?