June 18, 2017 — MJ Banias with Curt Collins

[Gene Steinberg]

While I was doing the episode with guest co-host Curt Collins, I didn't expect to hear anything about MUFON. But the subject came up as to why MJ Banias left the post of field investigator.

By the way: I have asked MUFON Executive Director Jan Harzan to return to The Paracast to talk about the recent controversies impacting the organization. But he says it'll have to be after he finishes work on the forthcoming MUFON Symposium — about which the less said the better.

Curt and I continue the discussion on the accompanying episode of After The Paracast, our premium podcast.

You can learn more about After The Paracast, part of Paracast+, from:

Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

 

[Sentry]

During the show, I recommended an article written in the 70s by John Keel, "The Flying Saucer Subculture." It documents some pivotal moments of history of the phenomenon that are willfully ignored by many other UFO authors. Rather than just share the link for it, I decided to write an introduction and provide some context for it at my blog:
John Keel, Witness to the Birth of the UFO Subculture

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Some fascinating points.

Ray Palmer latched on to Kenneth Arnold after his 1947 UFO sighting set the world searching for flying discs.

He hired Arnold to cover the Maury Island UFO sighting, and the cloak and dagger tale is told in a book the two wrote, "The Coming of the Saucers." I wonder just how much Palmer manipulated the story. One of the people involved in Maury Island was the very same Fred Lee Crisman who wrote of his encounters with Richard Shaver's deros in a letter published in Amazing Stories.

I can recall more, but this is a good starting point to consider.

Lots of young UFO researchers got involved in the UFO field and bought copies of Ray Palmer's Flying Saucers magazine. In turn, they met up through a little feature Palmer published called Saucer Club News. That's how I first encountered Allen Greenfield and others over the years.

I finally met Palmer in 1965, as regular listeners to The Paracast know.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

Enjoyed the show. Curt was a nice addition. I've enjoyed MJ on other podcasts and he was a nice guest for The Paracast. I also enjoyed the unfiltered "real talk" about MUFON. It needs to be repeated because they are in a downward spiral and, honestly, need to go away permanently. Between Hangar One, the latest scandals, and the fiction-based roster of speakers for their upcoming conference, the "serious" field of UFO studies would be better served by smaller groups of dedicated, credible researchers who possess integrity and aren't simply out to maintain the status quo and make a buck to pay staff salaries.

I can't imagine Jan Harzan having the stones to come back on the show after his complete mishandling of the utterly distasteful Ventre affair AND the embarrassing roster of speakers for their upcoming "symposium" that he clearly approves of. IF he bucks sane judgement and conventional wisdom and makes an appearance on The Paracast, I hope an appropriate "guest host" will be added to the show that has more recent direct experience with MUFON, like Erica Lukes or even MJ Banias, so that real issues can be addressed and discussed with people that have had direct experience within the organization.

 

[wwkirk]

As evidenced by After the Paracast and M.J., MUFON is on the ropes.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

Again, i find myself frustrated about how Gene and the others are using the show to promote a political belief system.

So you don't like the comments some guy from Mufon makes, so what.

What has it got to do with objective discourse about the UFO phenomenon? Nothing. What has it got to do with the promotion of political virtues, everything.

These views expressed that this guy is not allowed to say certain things that will offend people is YOUR political viewpoint, how ego centric the progressive left and it's almost religious self righteousness is to assume we ALL want to have this way of thinking authoritatively enforced on us. Not everyone does.

It's the political equivalent of the ufo true believer crowd. E.g. UFO's are aliens in structured craft, don't bother me with counter evidence or inconsistency. The left is like people should only be allowed to say X and Y, no more debate on the subject and everyone else is wrong....we are the only right answer

Had just about enough of the "politicast" recently, forcing the narrative of anti men in these female focus shows, proudly denouncing mufon for being too white and too male (and yet this mufon guy should stand down for racist comments, work that one out).

Please, please Paracast, I know politics has to be involved with the UFO subject but why not maintain an objective position, a true objective position like you are promoting with the reframing of the UFO debate and stop trying to force feed us leftism.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

We're talking about someone who made racist comments on his Facebook page. It's not a question of conservative, liberal, libertarian, whatever. It's a case of someone's hate-filled beliefs that have no place in a civil society. MUFON tolerated it because this guy was a huge donor, and that only makes matters worse.

Now it wasn't about being a political show. It's about one organization allowing hate.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

Judicious use of the forum's "Ignore" feature is an absolute must to maintain one's sanity and to squelch the profligate ignorance showcased by a (thankfully) small segment of Paracast forum participants. I'm sorry, as a forum Administrator, that you do not have that luxury, Gene.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

We're talking about someone who made racist comments on his Facebook page. It's not a question of conservative, liberal, libertarian, whatever. It's a case of someone's hate-filled beliefs that have no place in a civil society. MUFON tolerated it because this guy was a huge donor, and that only makes matters worse.

Now it wasn't about being a political show. It's about one organization allowing hate.

"Allowing hate" is one political view.

Freedom of speech would be another political view, for example.

It's not got anything to do with the UFO topic.

It's got to do with "in my world view, people shouldn't be allowed to say what they want and people shouldnt have to be offended. We should punish those who don't say what's allowed in our paradigm"

Other people may say "Freedom of speech is universal. I have the right to say what I want and that may offend people, the trade off is they have the right to say what they want and it may offend me. Freedom of speech is integral to an open and free society "

Not everyone shares your world view of political correctness and speech control hence my request for political objectivity.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

"Allowing hate" is one political view.

Freedom of speech would be another political view, for example.

It's not got anything to do with the UFO topic.

It's got to do with "in my world view, people shouldn't be allowed to say what they want and people shouldnt have to be offended. We should punish those who don't say what's allowed in our paradigm"

Other people may say "Freedom of speech is universal. I have the right to say what I want and that may offend people, the trade off is they have the right to say what they want and it may offend me. Freedom of speech is integral to an open and free society "

Not everyone shares your world view of political correctness and speech control hence my request for political objectivity.

There's no objectivity to being a racist. If he's a racist, he's racist - nothing else to say.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

There's no objectivity to being a racist. If he's a racist, he's racist - nothing else to say.

What's it got to do with UFO's?

Nothing

 

[Sentry]

This short clip combines some Hangar 1 footage with audio from a 2014 podcast interview, and it includes John Ventre discussing the lost MH 370 plane and passengers being abducted by aliens, which is one of his more realistic claims.

I found Ventre's nutty racist remarks reprehensible, but that wasn't the central issue to me, it was the organization's bungling of this and other problems. Ventre should have never been part of MUFON leadership in the first place, and needed to be removed long ago due to his promotion of superstitious and unscientific beliefs. Ventre and other screwballs being promoted by MUFON is just a symptom of the disease, not only in the organization, but of ufology.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

What's it got to do with UFO's?

Nothing

A racist that is involved with UFOs may inject his ignorant views on his research, thus making it useless, so that's what it has to do with UFOs. Cool?

 

[Sentry]

Can we talk about the guest and his ideas? MJ Banias has an interesting approach, and asks us to look at things in less conventional ways, saying,
"Philosophically, the UFO, on a cultural level, as a physical thing exists in a dualist state; it exists and does not exist simultaneously. UFOs are real and not real..."
The Philosophical UFO; Why Ufology is Actually Philosophy

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Yup - I just wanted to clarify why someone being racist is relevant to his/her UFO research.
I liked the guest quite a bit - he has a great approach to a topic that's mired in views that never changed regardless of evidence.

 

[Randall]

... These views expressed that this guy is not allowed to say certain things that will offend people is YOUR political viewpoint, how ego centric the progressive left and it's almost religious self righteousness is to assume we ALL want to have this way of thinking authoritatively enforced on us. Not everyone does ...

I chose to deal with the issue of appropriate social behavior in USI by making it an informal network rather than a registered entity. So members themselves decide how to handle each situation in real time rather than depending on a bureaucratic structure. Therefore no particular member speaks for the entire group, and anyone who is deemed to be offensive can simply be ignored by those with opposing views. The core principle all members agree to on registration is simply to have a genuine and constructive interest in the UFO phenomenon.

 

[Randall]

During the show, I recommended an article written in the 70s by John Keel, "The Flying Saucer Subculture." It documents some pivotal moments of history of the phenomenon that are willfully ignored by many other UFO authors. Rather than just share the link for it, I decided to write an introduction and provide some context for it at my blog:
John Keel, Witness to the Birth of the UFO Subculture

Really enjoyed the show. Lot's of enthusiasm and pertinent commentary. Also a good ATP.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

A racist that is involved with UFOs may inject his ignorant views on his research, thus making it useless, so that's what it has to do with UFOs. Cool?

Not cool.

So you are worried this guys paradigms may influence his work. Ok.

However, you believe this guy is ignorant and racist, because that's how it sits vs. YOUR paradigms.

This guy and you are both projecting your own paradigms.

If you don't think the progressive left paradigm is influencing UFOlogy look no further than true believerism, friendly space brothers, space beings warning us about envirommental damage and star trek esque visions of multi cultural alien federations (basically all the BS we are trying to get away from in UFOlogoy)

The only real way to ensure political paradigms are not influencing UFOlogy is to be completely politically objective and this show is not.

 

[Randall]

... The only real way to ensure political paradigms are not influencing UFOlogy is to be completely politically objective and this show is not.

Sometimes it's really easy to get one's self painted into a corner causing a simple point of fact to become a sticky situation. Therefore I'm going to assume that it's not your intention to offend anyone by playing devil's advocate and are simply trying to make the point that it's the subject matter that should be the focus and not the politics.

But then again, as you keenly observe, political sentiment is part of the social and cultural background of the subject that cannot be neatly segregated from it. I think the best we can do is try to recognize the sociopolitical factors for what they are and catalog them as objectively as possible. For example, we don't get all up-in-arms when someone talks about Nazis and UFOs. We recognize that the core phenomenon transcends what seems to be by comparison, rather petty squabbles between primitive tribes. Or maybe that's my own bias peeking through ... lol.

 

[technomage]

Not cool.

So you are worried this guys paradigms may influence his work. Ok.

However, you believe this guy is ignorant and racist, because that's how it sits vs. YOUR paradigms.

This guy and you are both projecting your own paradigms.

If you don't think the progressive left paradigm is influencing UFOlogy look no further than true believerism, friendly space brothers, space beings warning us about envirommental damage and star trek esque visions of multi cultural alien federations (basically all the BS we are trying to get away from in UFOlogoy)

The only real way to ensure political paradigms are not influencing UFOlogy is to be completely politically objective and this show is not.

Basically, anything you strongly disagree with will be used as evidence that a person's other points of view are less sound than they would be otherwise. So if someone believes in theory X and you think theory X is ridiculous or offensive or whatever, you will lend far less credence to anything else they say.

It's only when theory X is in the same field as theory Y is that it's relevant and should be counted. So if a scientist has a political opinion I don't agree with, it doesn't mean I'll discount what they say on a scientific matter. However, if a UFO investigator fell for clear hoaxes in the past, then there is a good chance they're not reliable in investigating new cases.