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June 11, 2017 — Robbie Graham and Robert Brandstetter


Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
The book "UFOs: Reframing the Debate" stands on becoming a classic in the way it treats the subject and it makes you think about the phenomenon in fascinating new ways.

We continue talking about the book on our premium podcast, After The Paracast, where another contributor to the book, Red Pill Junkie, holds court.

You'll really want to sign up for Paracast+ to get this episode.

Check: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
 
The guests bring up some great examples of UFOs/extraterrestrials in pop culture and how fact and fiction can be blurred, as well as viewers only getting a simple narrative of stories spoon fed to them. A longstanding hypothesis among some has been that films and TV shows related to this subject have been released to us in small snippets to prepare us for disclosure. However, I don't buy into this belief. If that was the case, why would movies depict aliens mainly as monsters or show humans acting hostile to them as if we're being invaded against our will-- wouldn't this make people more paranoid if disclosure should ever happen? Or, on the other hand, maybe flooding the media with TV shows or movies with this topic whether they be crap or good quality may just make it so mainstream and desensitize everyone to any extraterrestrial presence out there when/if that time comes. Overall, I think Hollywood has done more harm than good by inaccurate depictions and sensationalized stories.
 
In terms of UFOs in pop culture, can anyone think of any recent movies or TV shows that have credibility or have brought any benefit to the topic? There will always be Close Encounters and Contact that established a high bar, but those movies were made in 1977 and 1997 respectively. As of recent, I think the waters have been muddied with some horrible releases that were Hollywoodized to the max. To name a few that I saw or heard of:

Independence Day: Resurgence- just as horrible as the first and turned it off after 10 minutes. I never bought into a film where aliens could be defeated by giving them a computer virus from a MacBook. The aliens also looked ridiculous.

Arrival- interesting, but this movie has more to do with communication and deciphering. Spoiler- with aliens that looked like octopi and communicated with ink blots, I was turned off.

Hangar 1: The UFO Files- didn't even attempt to watch. Anything made by History has taken a lot of liberties to make material up.

Falling Skies- didn't even attempt this when I saw that the aliens looked like cthulhu

Ancient Aliens- interesting. I'll admit to owning a few seasons, but a lot of speculation in these episodes.

The Fourth Kind- no wonder the movie theater was empty when I saw it

Fire in the Sky- I know it was made in 1993. As much as I like Travis Walton, this movie was crap. I know Tracy Torme explained that execs forced his hand with certain scenes, but you only get one chance to make a decent film based on a book, and this one disappointed.

District 9- Good plot, but aliens that like to eat cat food from a can?

MIB I and II- oh God

Then those low budget, straight-to-DVD, found footage crap films like Alien Abduction, The Phoenix Lights, Skinwalker Ranch etc.

The Robert Zemeckis show that will be on History called Blue Book- I'll already pass on that since I think it'll only last a season.
 
It is always a treat when we get to hear Robert (Burnt State) on the show. Always thoughtful, always interesting, and always thought-provoking. I know he has a busy and productive life outside The Paracast show and forums (unlike some of us) but the more he can be convinced, cajoled, and/or bribed to be involved in future shows, the better for all of us.

Special bonus guest on ATP, Miguel (Red Pill Junkie), is also always a fantastic addition. I really love hearing his take on things, be it ufological or pop culture. On top of all that, his artwork for the new book is excellent.

Thank you to both of these gentlemen for taking the time to share their thoughts, insights and opinions on the show for the benefit of those of us interested in evolving our thinking about the UFO conundrum.

*For what it's worth, I bought the Kindle edition of Reframing The Debate while listening to the show and look forward to digging in to it once I finish "Facing The Other Way: The Story Of 4AD" one of my favorite record labels of all-time in the 80s and 90s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Great show! Thanks Gene and Chris for presenting my questions.

I've just about finished reading the book under discussion, UFOs: Reframing the Debate, and I found a lot of intriguing ideas by the various authors, all nicely presented and well-edited. Good job, Robbie and Robert, and all the other contributors.
 
Great show! Thanks Gene and Chris for presenting my questions.

I've just about finished reading the book under discussion, UFOs: Reframing the Debate, and I found a lot of intriguing ideas by the various authors, all nicely presented and well-edited. Good job, Robbie and Robert, and all the other contributors.
Out of curiosity which were the essays that stood out for you in terms of thinking about the phenomenon in different ways? Did any offend you or challenge you in intrrssun ways? It would be nice to hear what others think about this text as I've had my head so deep inside the book that I've got a lot of personal biases towards a number of pieces.
 
Modern Ufology provides:

. . . expert kaleidoscopic observation of wispy smoke in a hall of mirrors . . .

A repackaged, loose paraphrase of Christopher O'Brien's color commentary.

Well, Robert, your essay stood out to me in several ways, but mostly in terms of how often the needs of traumatized experiencers of the "what-ever-it-is" are more-or-less disregarded, while the prized, sanitized "report" is added to a mountainous pile of UFO statistics.

In contrast, Chris Rutkowski's piece seemed to hammer relentlessly on UFO believers, not that I don't recognize the potential danger of a whacked-out, uncritical, easy believism in UFO salvation.

I appreciate Mike Clelland's highly impressive experiences, but I am perturbed by what comes across to me as something of an invitation to join him in his emotional whirlpool. In that respect, Clueless Wonder's conservative approach was a good choice to follow Mike, IMHO, though his essay was a little on the dry side for my taste.

Joshua Cutchin, I think, makes an interesting point about so-called telepathic phenomenon that quite often accompanies UFO experience. The point he makes is persuasive, even if I don't like the terminology of materialist vs. non-materialist. But Cutchin did not invent the jargon, he only made use of it. The only other tiny quibble I have is about Cutchin's use of geocentricism vs heliocentrism as an example of sweeping paradigm shift. The fact is, geocentricism still remains valid to this very day. But only when properly nuanced. For observers on earth, the sun and moon are the two largest objects in the sky. The moon's orbit is well-described as geocentric. So, instead of speaking of sweeping change, the geocentricism vs heliocentrism debate ought to remind everyone of the desperate need for nuance and careful definition of terms.

I liked Micah Hanks' proposal of updating reporting terminology, though his $50 phrasing in $5 sentences gets a little tedious. I enjoyed Lorin Cutts' essay, simply for the forms of expression: "Disclosure is like attempting a prison break by asking the prison guards for the keys." I also enjoyed Curt Collins' replay of the "Not Roswell Slides." SMiles Lewis' essay was interesting, including his comment that "Ronnie Raygun" (of ancient history) was not the first to suggest the unifying effect of an external UFO invasion of earth.

I'd never heard of M. J. Banias prior to reading the book, and I found his ideas on capitalism as it would affect study of UFOs to be quite interesting, and persuasive I guess. RPJ's anarchy was pure anarchy, and worth a read, as was Susan Demeter-St. Clair's article. I haven't yet read Ryan Sprague's article, but I will get to it. I haven't read Greg Bishop's article yet either, but I've read his "It Defies Language" so I presume I have some understanding of where he will go.

Again, overall, I have been enlightened in various ways, and I appreciate the work that went into the individual articles and the editing. Hope this helps Burnt.
 
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All those piled stacks of cases to this day serve only to fuel the mythology of Ufology. And as Robbie contends, the very concept of Ufology is a fool's game on one hand and then serve up the sweet confections that Greg Bishop often refers to as UFO porn on the other. We love to read about the hot cases and get stimulated by the explicit pics of saucers and lights in the sky.

We never seem to get tired of a good story though much of them have been subsumed into the capitalist structure as all human endeavour is. And because it is about believerdom it gets marginalized and promoted as a kind of candy for the masses.

Greg's article really is worth the price of admission. He covers the history of the phenomenon and then opens up a series of questions and ideas that point to an alternative approach in terms of what we focus on.
 
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