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July 8, 2018 — Don Ecker with J. Randall Murphy

Discussion in 'Talk About the Show' started by Gene Steinberg, Jul 8, 2018.



  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    A fun episode where Don talks at length about some of the strangest people in the UFO field, including Bill Cooper, Bob Lazar and others.

    J. Randall Murphy is guest cohost

    The interview continues on this weekend's episode of After The Paracast, an exclusive feature of The Paracast+.

    For more information about our premium subscription package, please check: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
     
  2. wwkirk

    wwkirk Paranormal Adept

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  3. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    Thanks for posting that link. I find the whole Bill Cooper affair makes a good human interest story. Ufolore is peppered with these darker characters. I think that ultimately the field would be better off without them, but at the same time, from a historical perspective they add a certain texture. Other genres have the same dynamic, but IMO we also ought to be careful not to turn them into icons. Do we really need a Billy The Kid or John Dillinger of ufology? It's one thing to be a travelling snake oil salesman like Adamski, and another to get into a shootout with the law. Mind you I wasn't there, and Cooper didn't survive to tell his side of the story, and we've seen how some police can be a bit trigger happy themselves. Did it really go down like they say it did? I wonder if there are any other sides to that incident.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  4. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    Another side to the Cooper story? Why sure ... he was a target of the Secret Government! Damn Randall, I thought you KNEW!

    Decker

    PS Did you ever hear that quote attributed to Sigmund Freud Randall? "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  5. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    LOL. You're probably right, but I was referring specifically to how the shootout went down:

    The Bill Cooper Shootout - Another Perspective.

    Not all accounts given by police can be relied on to reflect exactly what happened, and if there was no video, how can we really be sure who fired first? Given the stories I've looked at since this Paracast episode, there's more than one version of events. One has Cooper being lured out of his house by undercover police with loud music and that's why he was out in his car. I don't know if that is factual or not, but either way, Cooper was in his car and reportedly tried to avoid being arrested by driving around police down the road and around a police cruiser at his home and then making a dash for his house.

    During the incident it's alleged that he tried to run over police with his car, and that when he started running for his house ( apparently on one good leg because he was an amputee ), he fired randomly backward behind him with a handgun. One story says that he lost his leg in combat, but if he was never actually in the forces as has been implied, how did he lose his leg? ( more in link below ). So the situation is a guy who was fleeing police, but no definitive evidence that he actually tried to run anyone down. More likely the police tried to block his escape by putting themselves in the path of his car, and when he didn't stop they interpreted that as "trying to run them down".

    Regardless, fleeing police who interpreted his actions as "trying to run them down" would be sufficient cause in many cases ( I would think ) for nervous or trigger happy police to start firing first when they got the chance. We've seen other cases on video where police have shot people before being fired at first. I imagine it's probably happened many more times than we know about. Plus we know police aren't always entirely truthful. Personally I want to believe the police are always the good guys, but we also know that's not always the case.
    Anyway, there was no video ( that I know of ) so we don't really know for sure exactly what happened.

    But let's assume that it's true Cooper was hobbling forward as fast as he could on his one good leg and prosthetic to get to his house. First off, even the stupidest person in the world would have to know that shooting first in that situation would result in return fire where you'd be at a distinct disadvantage and probably be killed. So we either assume he was a total idiot or had a death wish and was going for "death by police". The latter is more likely, but if that's the case why didn't he just stand there and draw on them instead of trying to get away? It doesn't make sense.


    A fleeing man is one trying to get away and live another day. In his mind he was going for the relative safety of his home to get away from those who he interpreted as being "out to get him" which in point of fact, they were, albeit probably not for the reasons he thought they were. Then there's the situation that he's hobbling along on one good leg trying to get away, fires randomly behind him, and actually hits an officer in the head? I'm no ballistics expert but the chances of that happening would seem to be staggeringly low.

    I think it's actually more plausible that Cooper was trying to get to his house and that driving around the police officers was interpreted as "trying to run them down", giving the police justification to open fire first, which took him down. Then while down, Copper was able to take aim and return fire before being taken out altogether. It would be interesting to see if the autopsy indicates whether or not Cooper was actually shot in the back while fleeing.

    Regardless, if he'd just turned himself in to begin with none of that would have happened, so ultimately it's Cooper's handling of the whole situation that led to his demise anyway. But then again, perhaps if he'd been taken alive he could have done his time and gotten the help he needed without anyone getting shot.

    BTW you can see Cooper apparently did serve in the forces here ( If that's the same William Milton Cooper ): NARA file.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  6. ChrisJohnsen

    ChrisJohnsen Paranormal Adept

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    "Another Perspective?" Based on what? I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this post is Randall. It's straight "pulled out of your ass" speculation based on none of the facts reported from the scene by law enforcement or new organizations. Also, no one, certainly not @Decker, claimed Cooper didn't serve in the Navy, just that he embellished his responsibilities while in the service to manufacture false credibility around his outlandish conspiracy theories.

    You're better than this. If it were me, I'd delete this ridiculous post. Next thing you know you'll go all "Sean Meers" and be posting about how Dr. David Jacobs has been right all along...
     
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  7. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    The purpose ( for me ) is that I found the story interesting and had only heard Don's version, so I decided to go looking for other versions of events because that's what I do. I don't simply take the first version I hear at face value, and in this case we have a guy shot dead by police on his own property. Now maybe you don't think that deserves to be looked at a little closer, but I thought it did. So you'll have to excuse me if that's a problem for you. For anyone who is interested in more details on the Cooper shootout. I just ran across a PDF with an extensive interview about the events surrounding the incident ( see below ):
     

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    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  8. ChrisJohnsen

    ChrisJohnsen Paranormal Adept

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    Sure, look at it closer but your post wasn’t doing that. It was just a stream of random speculation. Look at it closer, read more accounts, and THEN perhaps offer a different take, if one is even feasible. Otherwise, it’s just hot air.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    I awoke early this morning, usually I get up around 5 or 5:30 AM, got my first cuppa and turned on my laptop computer to check my email. I noticed that this thread garnered several posts on the Cooper thread so I read them. My God Randall, suddenly I had serious doubts about your comprehension skills ... and your hearing. After you posted you MUST have edited your post but I got your original post. In it you said;

    It's a combination of other versions and some fair-minded common sense. Besides that, what "facts" are you 100% sure of? Were you there to watch the shootout? Did Cooper not have an amputated leg? Did he not go around the police and try to get to his home before being shot? Do you really think a hobbling amputee trying to run away would be such a crack shot that he could take a blind shot and and hit an ex-desert storm vet turned policeman in the head? Do police never shoot first? These are reasonable points, so no need to start using provocative language.

    Cooper was an amputee, a below the knee amputation from a motorcycle accident. Now listen carefully ... the police tried to lure him out of his house by having two plain clothes police drive around his property by pretending to be a couple of teens drive around playing loud music. He ran out, got in a car and chased them. Attempting to block Cooper he, Cooper, drove right at police trying to run them down. Why were the police there? The Feds already had two warrants for Cooper, tax evasion and bank fraud. These cops had a warrant for Cooper for assault with a deadly weapon. He threatened a man with a hand gun. On his website he, Cooper, stated he would meet with deadly force anyone coming for him. Clear enough for you?

    Here is where your comprehension skills go to shit.

    I didn't say Don claimed Cooper didn't serve in the Navy. I said it was implied because Don had said something to the effect that Cooper had washed out or quit the service after a week or two and he considered that stolen valor. Without any mention of his his legitimate service what would you think?

    I never indicated Cooper did not serve in the military. When we started to discuss Butch Witkowski I said the Marine Corps threw his ass out of service in the first week, not Cooper. You conflated these two guys which tells me you either do not listen, or do not understand this story. And what official report ever mentioned the police shot first? Not one damned thing suggests that except, as Chris Johnsen suggested ... you pulled this out of your ass. You came on this scene late ... 30 years late my friend. I was there, I lived this bullshit, I knew this maniac, I saw, with my own two eyes, this guy in action, you never did. And to see you try to find excuses for him and what he did, what is on the record and what others reported simply make me shake my head at you. I am almost tempted to ask what is the color of the sky on your planet.

    So a "better person" wouldn't question the killing of a citizen by police on his own property? A "better person" wouldn't bother to see if there was another side to the story? Hmm. Perhaps you need to reassess your idea of what constitutes a "better person".

    This last unedited remark by you shows me how naive you are. I don't know how the Canadian police operate but here in the United States if you have a warrant for a dangerous man, that man is armed, not to mention that man has a history of violent acts .. has stated he will use deadly force to resist capture, shoots and hits a police officer in his head ... your damned right the police will shoot. And it does not matter whether he is at home, in a park, at the local 7-11 store or in church ... Cooper asked for it and he found it. Down here we call that suicide by cop. This asshole was a train wreck looking for a crossing .. he found his crossing and had his train wreck .. and now we have guys like you attempting to excuse him. Honestly it makes my ass very tired.

    Decker
     
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  10. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    It's fine to have doubts, and sometimes I do miss things, so by all means post your concerns.
    Right. By the time I'd finished the post to review as it would actually appear, I decided that given the extended PDF I ran across that most of it would be self-explanatory and I could shorten the whole thing. I know it's a bad editing habit, but I do it fairly regularly. Nothing in the original post bothers me if you want to comment on it too.
    So you also figure he was lured out of his home. I guess we can see how that tactic worked out.
    That seems like more a matter of opinion as there isn't any video and Cooper is dead. Personally I've seen police step out in front of speeding cars as if they're invincible to flag them over, and there's been a couple of incidents where in doing so they've been hit. Given that they ran in front of his vehicle, "trying to run them down" seems like a rather self-serving interpretation on the part of the officers ( who incidentally were not run down ). And if they were in plain clothes, why should he figure he needed to stop for them anyway? For all he knew they were part of the group that he felt were causing trouble driving around his property playing loud music.
    So some strange person comes onto your property and then takes off. Maybe he [Cooper] isn't the only one who might want to know who the guy was. I'm not saying Cooper behaved entirely rationally, and I wouldn't behave that way myself. But I might try to find out who it was.
    Okay let's hear it.
    Okay thanks for clearing that up. Apparently I got the Witkowski and Cooper mixed up when recalling the discussion. I did look for the segment to confirm but didn't have time to listen to both episodes again, and didn't find it while skimming, which is also partly why I deleted it. However to be fair that's not a comprehension problem, is a memory problem. I don't retain everything I hear with perfect precision. Sometimes I make mistakes and I appreciate being corrected on them.
    That's a matter of opinion. You guys can have your's. I can have mine. The fact is that police have been known to shoot first. There are even videos of it, and given the volatility of the situation, it seems reasonable to suspect that they might have done that. I also imagine there's a certain segment of the population who wouldn't blame them if they had.
    I appreciate your position. But like all situations where there are extreme views, there nearly always is another perspective to consider, and since the guy is dead and can't defend himself, I figured I'd have a closer look from a more objective position as someone who didn't know him and has no military or police affiliation. It's an interesting story.
    I still stand by that.
    I would expect so. And sometimes they even shoot before anyone else. Again, we don't really know for sure in this case, and if you browse the interview in the PDF I included ( above ), it details the incident in much greater detail and asks similar questions that I think are perfectly fair.
    On the "suicide by cop" issue, I addressed that by pointing out that someone attempting to flee doesn't sound like someone who wants to be shot. It would have been far easier for him to simply get out of his vehicle with his gun in his hand, and make himself an easy target. He didn't do that.

    Lastly, please don't misinterpret my curiosity about the case and the discovery of other bits and pieces with any attempt to "excuse him" [Cooper]. That's not my intent. IMO Cooper should have turned himself in peacefully. However that being said, because Cooper was the irresponsible unstable one in this scenario, it seems to me that given their knowledge of the situation, that the police might have tried harder to come up with a solution that didn't result in a man dead and an officer shot. Seriously, undercover officers driving around harassing and unstable dangerous man with loud music and then attempting to detain him out on some back road? I wonder who got the medal for that plan?
    Me too. That's another reason I shortened the original post down and posted the link to the PDF. I didn't really want to have to address each of these points, but I'm glad you took the time post, and thanks again for the comments and clarification. I enjoyed the show and the ATP very much. Plus I posted some favorable comments about you as well in my rating of the ATP.

    Fort those who don't know, you can enjoy more of Don on the KGA archives at: Dark Matters Radio | KGRA-dB Archives
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  11. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    Seems like you and @Paul Kimball missed the part where I said, "Given the stories I've looked at since this Paracast episode, there's more than one version of events." as well as the rather lengthy PDF I posted right above your last post. At least @Decker has the wherewithal to post some legitimate counterpoint. You certainly don't have to agree that there are reasonable questions about the incident, but to use your own words, "you're better than this". So beyond merely disagreeing, maybe try some counterpoint that:

    a.) Isn't offhandedly dismissive
    b.) Addresses the points made rather than the person making them.
     
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  12. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer Paranormal Adept

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    Still listening. A lot of conspiracy theory in the air.

    Hindsight is 20/20 regarding 'suicide by cop.' Funny how when we are talking about the paranormal a police officer's statement is considered sacrosanct; in truth they might be considered a complete nitwit by their peers for completed normal valid reasons. This sounds like a case of exactly the people we are supposed to call doing their jobs. I'm not sure how I'd feel if somebody handed me a vest and weapon and was told to go winkle some armed, crazy, one-legged drunken bastard out of his lair. I applaud their restraint. I would have used a crate of hand grenades if I had them.

    Don - when you speak what I hear is all my relatives in Wisconsin. Not sure what to make of that but I could use a beer and a brat.
     
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  13. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    That got a laugh. But in all seriousness, I can't help but think that someone could have come up with a smarter approach that didn't get anyone killed or shot.
     
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  14. ChrisJohnsen

    ChrisJohnsen Paranormal Adept

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    I've been aware of Bill Cooper since 1991, when I actually read his book that came out the same year. I was aware of the controversy around Cooper from the mid-90s onward. When he was killed by law enforcement in late 2001, though I had long since realized he wasn't a credible figure on anything he wrote about and in the interim had gone full "Sovereign Citizen/American Patriot Militia Movement," I was very curious as to the circumstances surrounding his death and over the months and years afterward, I read most everything I could find on the incident on his property in AZ. That's my background coming to this discussion we are now having.

    You attach a random PDF that consists of cobbled together information, all from highly dubious sources (Hour of the Time website, really?) and no longer existent sources (no such "SierraTimes.com" news site exists but the link at the end of the article also lists Jeff Rense's Alt News website as the "Main Page"). Jeff Rense! That racist piece of garbage that peddles truly outlandish conspiracy theories... Hey, we're off to a great start in getting the "real story" now! Alternate perspective indeed! That's some quality attribution. Next in your PDF is a section cribbed from Wikipedia, in which Wikipedia itself notes the lack of reliable third-party publications and numerous notifications in the body of the text noting the need for valid citations. As for the interview with Bill Cooper's friend/research partner/tenant (and fellow Patriot Militia Movement member), Doyel Shamley (who is also an Hour of the Time host), the guy makes assertions of facts that he couldn't know, as he was admittedly not even in the same town on the night of the confrontation. He's just riffing and spinning events to fit the "victim of the Federal Gov't" narrative that is commonplace among followers of the "Patriot" Militia and Sovereign Citizen movements.

    You've simply waded into an area you knew very little about and posted before doing true due diligence. I respect the fact that you were intrigued by the discussion you and Gene had with @Decker, the man never disappoints, as he is a true raconteur. However, before making ill-informed and completely speculative and fact-free posts in the forum, do the RESEARCH first, and THEN post, and then ONLY if the research itself appears to be sufficiently credible. Someone as intelligent and meticulous as yourself should have little problem in determining that before just attaching a 97 page PDF full of highly dubious content and presenting THAT as your basis for an "Alternate Perspective."

    Also, I don't know what @Paul Kimball has to do with any of this. I can't find any posts from him on this thread at all. You already irked Don, I'd advise not adding Paul to the list.

    I think this short article (link) from the Southern Poverty Law Center about the incident sums things up quite succinctly. 17 members of law enforcement were involved in this operation. The plan to get him away from his house was specifically because he was known to have stockpiled weapons and had expressed on numerous occasions on his radio show that he would not hesitate to use them should the government come on to his property and that he would never be taken alive. That certainly factored in to LE's strategy in trying to get him away from the house so that he could be arrested without incident. True to his word, the highly paranoid and heavily-armed Cooper chose not to go out that way. There are consequences to one's own actions. I understand that there are questionable "officer involved shootings" that take place all too frequently in the United States but it begins to stretch credulity, in my opinion, when you are talking about an operation of 17 LE members from local and Federal jurisdictions and the cover-up that would entail if the details of that night were truly in question. Combine that unlikelihood with the facts that Cooper was a highly-paranoid, heavily-armed member of an anti-government militia group that had made repeated claims he would not hesitate to fire on any law enforcement who "trespassed" on what he viewed as his sovereign property, and I think we have our clear and unambiguous outcome for the night of November 5, 2001. Pardon me if I don't lend equal credence to Cooper's "Patriot" militia pal, Shamley.

    These are my final thoughts on your initial post and on Bill Cooper in general. Good luck on your journey for more of the "alternate perspective." Sometimes paranoid idiots just get themselves shot when they didn't really have to...
     
  15. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    Paul had simply liked your post, which implies he agreed with it, which means he missed my comment as well. I think he liked your post just because he doesn't like me :confused:. I also realize that the PDF I linked to has all sorts of extraneous and questionable stuff bolted onto it in a rather haphazard way, but a lot of it was also the same stuff as quite a number of other links I had already run across. So I figured it might be interesting to others. I don't make any claim regarding its accuracy. It's just a human interest story, not a Ph.D. thesis.

    That being said, that PDF is the only place I've run across the rather extensive interview with Doyle on the shootout itself. And as I mentioned above, I'm just looking at the various points of view as well as posing some questions and thoughts myself. This is an informal discussion forum, and therefore having an academic annotated legal case prepared before posting anything is a bit much to expect. I think it's perfectly fair to post thoughts and questions about any topic just to see what others have to say and get a discussion going. Basically that's all I'm doing, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone in the process. Thanks for lightening up a bit.
     
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  16. guestron

    guestron Skilled Investigator

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    Anyone else feel that Don was being a tad curt with J. Randall? When asked clarifying questions his annoyance was palpable. Now, I'm all for Don's rancontouring, but J. (who was billed as the co-host) spoke about 1/100th the amount Don did. Anyway, good show nonetheless.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
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  17. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    Well you know, Don has a reputation to live up to ;) .
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  18. guestron

    guestron Skilled Investigator

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    Lol! Yes, there is something about that guy that does not allow me to stop listening!
    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
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  19. blowfish

    blowfish Whittingham

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    Enjoyed the vast knowledge all you chaps have on this crazy UFO field. Mr Copper was out to kill Police Officers while taking himself out going Don's experince in law enforcement and sad state of affairs. On Mr Lazar story and Mr Knapp it seems a lot of information has been leftout . Listening to the Mr Lazar interview it sounds as he is divulging information for someone else who was working alongside Mr Lazar in so called 'S4'. The drawings of so call hanger mix up can be done as not to compromise his alleged US clearance.
     
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  20. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer Paranormal Adept

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    I was just listening to ATP and Randall your hide is pretty thick. Don can talk all the air out of a room. He probably talks in his sleep - and argues. Pedantic.

    When you get to something interesting related to the 21st century I'll be right here waiting.
     
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