July 16, 2017 — Ron James

[Gene Steinberg]

I'm regularly ragging on Ron James, the documentary producer, for being a little less cautious about the sort of theories he believes in, and the loose vetting of guests at some of the events in which he participates.

So we had a spirited discussion during this episode.

Then I invited Ron to join me and J. Randle Murphy on After The Paracast to continue the discussion.

After The Paracast is an exclusive feature of The Paracast+. Check here to learn more:

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[wwkirk]

You were like a bulldog with your criticism of MUFON. As Ron said several times, he is not their spokesperson.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

He’s their de facto marketing person by pushing the conference and TV channel. And making excuses for Hangar 1.

 

[Randall]

You were like a bulldog with your criticism of MUFON. As Ron said several times, he is not their spokesperson.

Hey that's what sets The Paracast apart from the rest, and I think in a good way. I really liked the point-counterpoint and think both Gene and Ron made some excellent points. I like Ron's attitude in general, but I think his comment that Gene was perhaps a little naïve is exactly the opposite of the situation. What I like about Ron is his somewhat idealistic approach and how he'd like to see that sentiment reflected the UFO community, but if anything, that is what's naïve, not Gene's approach, which I think he fairly characterized as "responsible criticism".

 

[Randall]

BTW, IMO I don't see MUFON as the solution to the in-fighting and territoriality that Ron described as being the root of the problem in the ufology community. In fact quite the opposite. The way I see it, their bureaucratic structure further entrenches the territoriality. Let's face it: That's what any Board of Directors is all about. It's about claiming high-profile territory, reaping the benefits at the expense of the membership, and exercising power. Anyone who goes against the grain or doesn't pay their dues gets nowhere, even if they have good ideas or are part of other independent efforts that might be beneficial to the cause.

MUFON isn't alone either. As Ron suggests, virtually everyone in the field is out their on their own little piece of turf promoting their own agenda and they're all fine with everyone else doing that so long as it doesn't infringe on their territory. That's exactly why I decided to go with an informal network when creating USI. Anyone with a good idea is free to make what they can out of it and everyone is free to either assist or not on their own terms. It's the exact foundation for the way Ron's ideal version of a group should work, and that's why I say in the ATP session that he reminds me of me 20 years ago.

If the people in the field really believed in a unified cooperative approach rather than promoting, advancing, and defending their own agenda, USI would be the largest most effective well funded ufology group out there. But it's not, and that's because in reality most people in the field don't really want it to work that way. The community is segregated into various camps and belief systems where the focus is defending those camps and belief systems rather than becoming one big happy family focused on figuring out what the truth is. Either that or they just don't really care enough about it to invest personal time and resources in it.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

I'll share some quick thoughts about the episode and ATP, in no particular order. Although Ron was not "officially" a spokesperson for MUFON, his justification for the speakers lineup for the symposium was disingenuous and, itself, naive. You simply can't hold yourself up as a bastion for scientific inquiry into the UFO phenomenon and then bring in that shameful circus of fantasy-spinning speakers. His defense of their inclusion by claiming that the fanciful stories they spin for profit are "popular" and can't be necessarily "disproven" is patently ridiculous. You can't disprove a negative. One would think there would be a certain standard, albeit a low one considering Ufology's track record, of "evidence" required to be taken even remotely seriously for inclusion. For Contact In The Desert? Sure, it doesn't present itself as some serious conference by an organization basing its research on scientific process. It's entertainment. UFO Congress? Same. Even though it does a better job of vetting speakers for their event. He made several claims of certain things being "fact" to support his opinions that were far from being established as such. I did not take notes during the episode, so I regret I can't list specifics, but I remember chuckling several times during his responses at many of his assertions. Finally, the revelation in the final segment that Ron is besties with Stephen Bassett and believes strongly in his cause and his credibility, ultimately told me everything I needed to know. I appreciated Ron coming on the show. He was a good guest to interview.

I found it interesting that Chris O'Brien conveniently found himself unable to participate in an episode that was knowingly going to be confrontational with the guest. A guest he is friends with and has been hired by in the past. Understandable he wouldn't want to examine Ron too closely and be critical, possibly damaging a working relationship. The inclusion of Randall for the ATP episode was a great addition and I thought he did a fantastic job further interviewing and conversing with Ron. He was an excellent counterpoint to Gene's approach during the main episode.

 

[kanakaris]

Great and informative episode .Very good from Mufon to have Gary McKinnon as (skype) speaker.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I found it interesting that Chris O'Brien conveniently found himself unable to participate in an episode that was knowingly going to be confrontational with the guest. A guest he is friends with and has been hired by in the past. Understandable he wouldn't want to examine Ron too closely and be critical, possibly damaging a working relationship.

I won't have internet until Thursday as I have moved. I really wanted to be on the episode but moving and no internet made that impossible. As for your assumption that I would not have been tough on Ron, you are absolutely WRONG! He and I have had contentious conversations about what's wrong w/ the field on a number of occasions and I don't pull punches on anyone just because I've worked w/ them or they are my friend. I'm a professional and don't shy away from controversies or give anyone free rides.

 

[matthew1977]

you moved? i recall you saying you had lived close to David Childress (sp?).. a neighbor like that would be hard to move away from! Are you still in the Sedona area?

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[Banshee O'Night]

Please consider this a critique as opposed to a criticism. I like the Paracast, and I belong to Paracast Plus, and am glad to.
That said: this particular show demonstrates why Gene and Chris make a good team, and create the necessary balance. Gene is quite passionate and an Everyman crusader and Science crusader; Chris is more apt to bring forward the redeeming value of the guest and understand their imperfections and be disinclined to throw the baby out with the bathwater--at least, not while the guest is actually live on the show.

In this case, I think Mr. James laid it on the line that this subject of UFO's, EBE's, UAP's, whatever we are calling them today are a legitimate area of inquiry, and that MUFON, whom he works for, doesn't represent, isn't there to be perfect and a standard barrier for hard science, which has grappled only recently with their own scientific method in explaining quantum science, which , at least, is still considered science despite lacking in every experiment it performs predictable outcomes.

Not that I suggest Gene cut anybody any slack. That would take some of the fun out of the show. Go get 'em, Gene!

 

[Celeste]

I very much enjoyed the episode. That 'point-counter point' format was great. It was excellent on both parts. I'm not into MUFON or particularly invested it its politics, but I do agree with Mr James, they have amassed a huge amount of 'evidence'. I admit that in my heart, I really want to believe. However, I have a well-developed BS detector and I find it going off a whole lot while I listen to various radio shows, podcasts and videos. I do wonder about something, though. I get a general sense of debunking when I listen to The Paracast, but not completely. It does make me wonder, Gene and Chris, what do you believe is going on? I sense that you don't think the ETH has much merit and you don't put much stock in a secret space program. These are two of the most likely sources of the thousands of sightings and experiences over the years. If it's not us and it's not them, what the heck is it? Is it a case of one person having some experience they can't explain and then everyone jumping on the bandwagon with stories of their own, real or not? I've actually seen that sort of thing happen numerous times. All that said, I am interested in what his new Roswell stuff is all about. However, it doesn't look like he will put that out there anytime soon.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

I feel Ron started off well and his enthusiasm was making me think twice about MUFON..... however.....

Hearing him hide behind the 'were just giving everyone a platform' highground was infuriating.

You can't hold that position while saying your trying to advance scientific understanding. If that's your mission surely you have to act as some sort of clearing house where the presenters involved would adhere to scientific principles or their presented findings would pass scientific muster.

He lost me after holding that position.

The speakers and the topic of the symposium is clearly designed to maximise commercial results so just call it what it is. It's not designed to advance scientific understanding as per their mission.

I would have liked Gene to have pushed him harder at the end where he made some huge claims about the best minds on the planet working on the ET/space issue, it would have been great to understand why he thinks that and what the evidence is.

At the end of the day he is a true believer, defending a true believer symposium, organised by a true believer organisation masquerading as a quest for scientific understanding.

 

[Randall]

I feel Ron started off well and his enthusiasm was making me think twice about MUFON..... however.....

Hearing him hide behind the 'were just giving everyone a platform' highground was infuriating.

You can't hold that position while saying your trying to advance scientific understanding. If that's your mission surely you have to act as some sort of clearing house where the presenters involved would adhere to scientific principles or their presented findings would pass scientific muster.

He lost me after holding that position.

The speakers and the topic of the symposium is clearly designed to maximise commercial results so just call it what it is. It's not designed to advance scientific understanding as per their mission.

I would have liked Gene to have pushed him harder at the end where he made some huge claims about the best minds on the planet working on the ET/space issue, it would have been great to understand why he thinks that and what the evidence is.

At the end of the day he is a true believer, defending a true believer symposium, organised by a true believer organisation masquerading as a quest for scientific understanding.

I tried to get the idea through to MUFON a few years back that their motto "The Scientific Study of UFOs for the Benefit of Humanity" only invites cries of pseudoscience, but they simply hand-waved it and gave no counterpoint whatsoever to the reasoning I had given. Their bureaucratic self-serving attitude seemed to be all the justification they needed, so the last thing I'd do is give them any tacit approval by becoming a paying member.

However, that being said, I still resonate in-part with what Ron was saying about enjoying ufology for its diversity in a cultural sense. If they'd put science in its proper perspective where ufology is concerned rather than attempting to use it as a Styrofoam anchor for their cause, then everyone could simply enjoy all their nonsense as entertainment related to a genuine mystery. I've got no real problem with that.

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[Jeff Crowell]

So few people understand quantum mechanics and string theory, yet so many people desperately try to use string theory to rationalize, explain, and validate their religious beliefs. 15 minutes into this I knew this Ron James guy was one of those ignorant, desperate people.

 

[matthew1977]

wowzers, this was a ruff show to listen too... i feel that the majority of the questions asked of the quest would have been better redirected towards the Public Relations person of Mufon vs. someone loosely acquainted with Mufon. Gene you seem very opinionated against Mufon (and few would blame that stance). Why not get a guest with a different point of veiw like Joe Montaldo (i know, i sound like a broken record.. this show proves you/we need a different conversation to liven things up) it was seriously harsh to listen too. i do think the guest handled himself well under the pressure though.

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[Gene Steinberg]

Ron was promoting MUFON's interests, even if he doesn't work for them. My main complaint with MUFON is that they have chosen entertainment over research. Maybe it's done with the purest of motives, to build the membership base and have more funding for research. At the end of the day, however, it is a fact that MUFON really hasn't accomplished anything meaningful in helping to solve the mystery.

I like Ron, and he handled himself well. But some of MUFON's moves are indefensible.

However, we've had plenty of shows that promoted MUFON in one way or another, including episodes featuring one of their directors.

 

[Randall]

So few people understand quantum mechanics and string theory, yet so many people desperately try to use string theory to rationalize, explain, and validate their religious beliefs. 15 minutes into this I knew this Ron James guy was one of those ignorant, desperate people.

I wanted to like your comment because the core idea seems accurate, but I wouldn't go so far as to call Ron ignorant or desperate. I mean maybe he is or maybe he isn't. I don't really know him, but he comes across to me as someone who is trying to make the best of what he has to work with from his perspective, and he tries to look at the upside rather than getting bogged down in the analysis. The problem with that is that if you're someone who takes the time to dig deeper into the sorts of claims that he presents via his media, the promotion of those works tends to come across as an endorsement of the beliefs.

Sometimes we'd agree with such endorsements, e.g. his comments on Fukushima, but other times it seems more like a conflict of interest between truth and entertainment. I tried in diplomatic way on the ATP episode to get him to explain how he manages to balance these considerations, but he didn't really have a solid answer. He seems to just be doing what he does and worrying about the fallout later. So although I don't sense an intentional deception, the depth of his investigation seems at times to be somewhat shallow.

So personally, I'd have to know more about him and see how his work matures before being any more critical than that. I sent an email off to him in an effort to explore things further, but no reply so far. I also sent Erica Lukes a couple of emails because of the idealistic sentiments she expressed, but nothing from her either. Because of my own idealism, I see a lot of potential in people who still have some genuine idealism, but when nothing comes out of it, it's hard not to think that what they're presenting via the media is simply a designer persona intended for marketing purposes. Is that unfair? Maybe. Maybe not. How can we tell?

 

[marduk]

You did the right thing Gene.

There's being open minded, and then there's letting your brains fall out. And he clearly lives in the latter category.

And his metaphysical pop-culture view of science is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

The guy was a loon

Please don't resort to name calling and try to get more creative with your flaming, ok?

 

[marduk]

Please don't resort to name calling and try to get more creative with your flaming, ok?

Fair, my bad. Editing my post now.

My specific problems were the tone of broad brushing - we live in a simulation (probably not true), anything is possible because of QM (probably not true), we are here to learn (the universe doesn't appear to care what we do).

And when challenged, he didn't really try to defend himself - instead new things were thrown on the field as if he expected Gene to chase them instead.

Which left me with the sense he was very much trying to sell a perspective and a narrative to go along with it.

And defending MUFON at this point is just ethically repulsive.