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Jacques Vallee interview and Jesus of Nazareth



tyder001

Paranormal Adept
Ya know if you really look at that picture. I mean really look and think about it and about all war and carnage. It's chilling.
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
I wouldn't be here if I hadn't stumbled upon a book in my early adolescence titled 'Caballo de Troya' (Trojan Horse) written by J.J. Benítez.

Last March 30th at approximately 10:30 pm I finished reading the 9th book of this amazing saga. A journey that took me 25 years of my life to complete. The subject of these books, comprising maybe about 10,000 pages: Jesus of Nazareth.

Of the historical existence of Jesus there are other sources aside the evangelical texts. The romanized Jewish historian Flavius Josephus mentions Jesus (very briefly) in his book 'History of the Jews'.

Of the 'divine' nature of Jesus, there's really nothing that can be said that would dissuade a true believer of its reality, or an skeptic of its falsity. Everything falls into a subjective interpretation --maybe THAT's the idea ;)

Forget about miracles and prodigies. The crux (no pun intended) of the message given by Jesus was this: that we are all the sons of God, and therefore all humans are brothers.

Simple, right? Well, in 1st century Palestine this was so revolutionary it was deemed a heresy!

We have to be mindful of the context. In times of Jesus the Jewish were taught to fear the wrath of Yahweh, a vengeful and blood-thirsty god who punished wrong-doings up to the third generation of the 'sinner'. The written and the oral law was a jig-saw puzzle full of overwhelming commands you needed to obey in order to avoid 'impurity'. Example: if a woman was menstruating, she became impure; if a man touched anything that the woman had been in contact with, he became impure, too! How did you became pure again? why with ritual ablutions at the temple... followed by the payment of a few shekels that ended in the pockets of the priests.

The boiled down message of Jesus was to forget about all this. The only commandments he gave were: Love God and love your brothers. That's. It.

Did Jesus really existed? I think there's evidence that suggests it.

Was Jesus the son of God? I haven't the faintest idea.

Is Jesus' message worth following even if he wasn't? Well Duh!! ;)
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
We have to be mindful of the context. In times of Jesus the Jewish were taught to fear the wrath of Yahweh, a vengeful and blood-thirsty god who punished wrong-doings up to the third generation of the 'sinner'. The written and the oral law was a jig-saw puzzle full of overwhelming commands you needed to obey in order to avoid 'impurity'. Example: if a woman was menstruating, she became impure; if a man touched anything that the woman had been in contact with, he became impure, too! How did you became pure again? why with ritual ablutions at the temple... followed by the payment of a few shekels that ended in the pockets of the priests.

The boiled down message of Jesus was to forget about all this. The only commandments he gave were: Love God and love your brothers. That's. It.

A fine patriarchal theistic message, corrupted for 20 centuries by man and his follies. (Woman relagated to subserviant roles ;))
amazing_homes_pope_vatican_city.jpg


In essence, Jesus became the foundations for financial, political, military initiatives throughout the ages. Its supreme values to be propagated no matter what the cost ;)

VIDEO Flashback: Bibles burned at U.S. base in Afghanistan, ZERO people killed | Video | TheBlaze.com
Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.
The unsolicited Bibles sent by a church in the United States were confiscated about a year ago at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan because military rules forbid troops of any religion from proselytizing while deployed there, Lt. Col. Mark Wright said.

It doesn't get more condescending than that... total disrespect for foreign cultures.
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
A fine patriarchal theistic message, corrupted for 20 centuries by man and his follies. (Woman relagated to subserviant roles ;))

And yet the gospels tell that the very first person who met the Resurrected Jesus... was a woman.
Tomb_7.gif

Why? because the 'apostles' were cowardly hiding in fear of being arrested ;)

I'm not going to defend the Vatican or its policies. The subservient role given to women --who had a more prominent role in the early days of the primitive church-- and their disgusting policies toward homosexuals is one of the reasons I left the Catholic church.

But that's the church, which IMO has nothing to do with Jesus' message. The wrongdoings of the Vatican is the perfect example that anything can be corrupted and misinterpreted.
 

Kim323

Paranormal Maven
I enter this thread with trepidation, but what the heck.

The post above by Ezechiel with the reference to bentupper's, (poor guy!) ill-advised reference to compassion, etc., even in the most general sense with which I don't see any disagreement, is nevertheless blasted with the heavy artillery brought to the front lines immediately. Accompanied by a picture no less of a battle of the Crusades.

May I reference my posts in the Thomas Fusco thread began by Angelo, and also, my posts in the Forum Rules thread, especially the last, with my plea to give history as a scholarly endeavor the respect it deserves, the last paragraph.

Now to the post which I address. I really mean this with the utmost respect, but I just am left with my head shaking.

It took me, literally, one second, to identify the picture posted: Gustave Dore's Richard and Saladin at the Battle of Arsuf. I love art history, and sort of "specialize," among others, in the art of Dore. The man's illustrations of the Bible, Paradise Lost, and on and on, are treasures. But I ask, of what significance is the picture, really, to the comments accompanying it?

I won't argue with yes, the message of compassion has been far from being adhered to. That's the wonder of the history of mankind. It makes history absolutely a goose-pimple delight to read, especially if discretion is used somewhat to read scholars who really know their stuff and yet make it readable. I recommend Thomas Asbridge's The First Crusade: The Roots of Conflict between Christianity and Islam. I have recommended the books by Diarmaid MacCulloch on the history of Christianity, and his histories of the Reformation. My point is that the richness of history is abandoned wholesale when the very things that people can allege off the tops of their heads with abandon are not really understood by them. Or let me rephrase that: when the comments are, seemingly, such. From the post and picture, I really have no inkling that the poster MAY understand anything of the history of religion, of Christianity, of the disputations of doctrine, etc., etc., that make history such a delight. No, no one argues the fact of human strife over religion. But let's look at the picture again: is the point that the Crusaders were awful savages picking on the Muslims? Or, was it the other way around? It would seem, from "if Jesus was so smart he could have prevented the Crusades," that the former is the allegation, but I can't be sure.

Or, "or religions a devious population control scheme?" Well, maybe that's the point of the picture, but who can tell? So, Richard and Saladin contrived together to put population control to the forefront of world concerns at the time, or was it Pope Urban II's (I'm pretty sure, I'm just doing this off the top of my head, I can't keep everything at the tip of my fingers, but I try) conspiracy? Or, no, wait a minute, it was, and I'm 99% sure here, as I love Byzantine history, the emperor Alexios I, who, feeling the threat of Islam to Constantinople and his empire, asked for the assistance of the Western church? These men were really ahead of their time, so prescient as to the population control concerns of our time.

I really, honestly, mean all this with the utmost respect, and do not deny the poster's basic message. But, even basicality (is that a word, I don't think so!) has to be leavened with an adherence to the richness of history, and not mockery of history as a scholarly endeavor, or mockery of the things some hold so silly regarding religion without understanding that humans of the past and even now, are searching for answers, and some may mock the fine doctrinal points that have divided Christians, but to ignore the good Christianity has done, and to diminish the heartfelt search that often motivated the men we mock, is not fair historically even. I really have written this with somewhat of a tongue in cheek perspective. Kim
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
But that's the church, which IMO has nothing to do with Jesus' message. The wrongdoings of the Vatican is the perfect example that anything can be corrupted and misinterpreted.

Begs the question: Why the need for such a message and why would a 'son of God' not be able to foresee the corruption and its very long term damaging effects on our small planet... Made even smaller by modern communications and transport technologies.

Having to say 'Love your brothers' implies that societies preceding this visionary did not operate under that commandment ? and 'Love your god' that humanity cannot exist without a conscious creator ?
Its a simple message but highly critical and with huge implications. It condemns atheists, is in contradiction with the idea of 'free will' and forces you into a judgemental christian god framework.

Anything outside of the framework is disposable material. Creationism at its best... Darwin beware.
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
Begs the question: Why the need for such a message and why would a 'son of God' not be able to foresee the corruption and its very long term damaging effects on our small planet... Made even smaller by modern communications and transport technologies.

I don't know --I'm not God, you know ;)

Maybe in the end the balance will be a positive one, despite all the pain and suffering throughout the years? Maybe humanity is so thick-headed that it needed 2 millenia to begin to grasp the lesson.

It reminds me of a paragraph I once read in Whitley Strieber's The Key that captivated me: "The Christian searches for God. The Muslim submits to the will of God. The Buddhist finds God". Maybe we needed to reach enough maturity and wisdom to join all the pieces of the puzzle. Bear in mind that this is pure speculation from my part.

Having to say 'Love your brothers' implies that societies preceding this visionary did not operate under that commandment ?
Back in those days even the more enlightened of civilizations --the Greeks-- thought slavery was natural and acceptable. So, No.

and 'Love your god' that humanity cannot exist without a conscious creator ?
Its a simple message but highly critical and with huge implications. It condemns atheists, is in contradiction with the idea of 'free will' and forces you into a judgemental christian god framework.
Anything outside of the framework is disposable material. Creationism at its best... Darwin beware.

I honestly think that's not the case. It merely acknowledges that there's a natural tendency in human beings to ask the big questions: who am I? why am I here? what's the point of all this? IMHO this is the result of a natural thirst to find a transcendental meaning in our lives; in other words: to search for the divine.

But personally I feel that each person must choose its own path. And Jesus' message is one of hope: that there's someone bigger than ourselves watching over us in our journey :)
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Having to say 'Love your brothers' implies that societies preceding this visionary did not operate under that commandment ?​
Back in those days even the more enlightened of civilizations --the Greeks-- thought slavery was natural and acceptable. So, No.

That's a very localized perspective... I guess the entire planet needed a good kick in the butt then (which it got ;))

What religion is good at doing is removing responsability from the individual and sending it to another dimension. Thus the notion of heaven and hell. Paying to have your soul saved etc...

'Love your brothers' implies you are too retarded to appreciate your brother. Jesus is now telling you to appreciate him and that civilization starts now. This is year zero of the christian sect... dark ages will begin in a few centuries. Too bad for Giordano Bruno lol
Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
That's a very localized perspective... I guess the entire planet needed a good kick in the butt then (which it got ;))

Who said the search for the divine had to be a safe endeavor? ;)

The Greeks was an example. Women were allowed to vote in the United States in 1920. So I do think we humans are slow learners ;)

What religion is good at doing is removing responsability from the individual and sending it to another dimension. Thus the notion of heaven and hell. Paying to have your soul saved etc...

'Love your brothers' implies you are too retarded to appreciate your brother. Jesus is now telling you to appreciate him and that civilization starts now. This is year zero of the christian sect... dark ages will begin in a few centuries. Too bad for Giordano Bruno lol
Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The word 'religion' comes from the Latin word re-ligare; it's meant to convey a reunion or re-connection between the human nature and the Divine. I personally think the relationship to be something personal with no need for intermediaries, while other people might feel the need of some guidance and to be part of a large community. Fine by me.

Bottomline is that if we're start to think of reasons why the world would have been better off without religion, then IMO if we extend that line of reasoning we might end up thinking we would have been better off without a universe :p

But I do think we're too retarded to see the reflection of ourselves in the people around us. If we did, then there would be no need for laws of any kind ;)

People are too busy looking for God in the heavens. They need to just to look around to find what they're searching.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
But I do think we're too retarded to see the reflection of ourselves in the people around us. If we did, then there would be no need for laws of any kind ;)

Civil laws should have been enough.... and existed way before any Jesus came around.
Democracy in ancient Greece

A linear advancement of science and technologies from 1000 BC through today would have eradicated slavery way before Lincoln showed up. Instead we ended up with the repression of new ideas in favor of the implementation of divine law, inquisition and cruisades. The appearance of monotheism is in fact the creation of a destructive singularity whose appropriation by diverse cultures is at the core of all disputes on this planet.
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
Civil laws should have been enough.... and existed way before any Jesus came around.
Democracy in ancient Greece

A linear advancement of science and technologies from 1000 BC through today would have eradicated slavery way before Lincoln showed up.

Now who's speculating here? ;)

Besides, who says slavery is a thing of the past?

nike-sweatshops.jpg


In 'The Key', the mysterious man who Strieber later called the master of the Key, told him that each person in the west had 5 slaves. But now it was much easier to own slaves because you don't even have to care for their well-being --you don't even have to know where they live.

Anyway, the Greeks' decline had nothing to do with the emergence of Christianity.

Instead we ended up with the repression of new ideas in favor of the implementation of divine law, inquisition and cruisades. The appearance of monotheism is in fact the creation of a destructive singularity whose appropriation by diverse cultures is at the core of all disputes on this planet.

:confused:

Destructive singularity. Are you talking about Monotheism or the Borg? :p

If you accuse Monotheism of all the problems and disputes in the planet, then I humbly beg to differ. Maybe religion didn't help Man to control its violent nature, but it certainly wasn't the origin of it.
 

Digital Trickster

Paranormal Maven
I dont disagree that these messages have been corrupted and I dont practice any religion but i am willing to learn what others have to say and then come to my own opinion .Just because many people have taken the teachings of Jesus or any other prophet and twisted them or use them to judge others doesnt mean that we cant learn lessons from all teachings.That is the whole point of life to learn and question all that we can.I believe you make a great point Ezechiel that too may times in our history people have used all these teachings for evil and wrong and to judge others as infidels and this is very wrong.I dont think that bentupper was trying to preach to anyone or push his opinions on us here on the forum.I think he just wanted to know what we thought and not be judged or mocked for asking some questions.We all know what it is like to be judge for being involved in the field of Ufology and I would hope this forum can be a place where we dont need to mock others but simply agree to disagree on a topic of interest.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Destructive singularity. Are you talking about Monotheism or the Borg? :p

If you accuse Monotheism of all the problems and disputes in the planet, then I humbly beg to differ. Maybe religion didn't help Man to control its violent nature, but it certainly wasn't the origin of it.

Now that you mention it, the Borg is a good analogy lol. A restrictive view of life for the good of the collective that inhibits the embedded creativity of all humans. Thou shall not explore new venues, should they contradict sacred scripture thou shall be banished to the depths of hell for eternity.

I could argue that religion added an unnecessary extra dimension to human violence. Another reason to be intolerant of your brother... My god is better than your god...
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
Now that you mention it, the Borg is a good analogy lol. A restrictive view of life for the good of the collective that inhibits the embedded creativity of all humans. Thou shall not explore new venues, should they contradict sacred scripture thou shall be banished to the depths of hell for eternity.

I could argue that religion added an unnecessary extra dimension to human violence. Another reason to be intolerant of your brother... My god is better than your god...

Unnecessary violence. Unnecessary pain...

You know, I've never been a particularly courageous individual. In fact I consider myself to be quite the opposite!

However, as a child I did manage to do many things that are part of what one would call a 'normal' childhood: I learned to ride a bicycle, I learned to ride a skate-board, I learned to swim and I played with the waves in the ocean.

And boy did I fall from that bicycle! and how many nice scabs I collected on my knees thanks to that skateboard. And there was even one time when I had a close call with death when I faced a huge 5-meter-tall wave on a beach in Ixtapa Zihuatanejo --on that day, when my father and my sister watched in terror that I couldn't get out of the water, while they were screaming I managed to surprise everybody (even myself!) by running toward the wave and diving beneath it.

Now, one could say that all those scary and painful experiences could have been avoided, and that instead of falling off that bicycle I could have spent all my time watching TV in the safety of my parents' living room.

That I could have done... but then by now I would have less fond memories of my childhood. And I wouldn't know the joy of riding a bicycle.

Understand, no parent gives a bicycle as a present expecting his child to fall and break a leg! But should that happen, it's understood as part of the learning experience of life.

It would be far more harmful to forbid the child to experience all those things and learn from its mistakes, don't you think? ;)
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
There is no material evidence for the existence of Jesus and what anecdotal evidence there is was constructed well after the period he supposedly lived. But in my view it is this fact that makes the Jesus myth more interesting than had there been an actual person. For example, the circumstantial evidence suggests that Jesus is a composite character composed of facets of religious doctrine that survived the Roman conquest of the Essenes. These bits of doctrine were preserved in the form of stories that anthropomorphized their theological beliefs giving rise to a personification of their religion in Jesus, who as a consequence took on the the essential traits of the religion itself and in doing so became immortal and omnipresent.
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
There is no material evidence for the existence of Jesus and what anecdotal evidence there is was constructed well after the period he supposedly lived. But in my view it is this fact that makes the Jesus myth more interesting than had there been an actual person. For example, the circumstantial evidence suggests that Jesus is a composite character composed of facets of religious doctrine that survived the Roman conquest of the Essenes. These bits of doctrine were preserved in the form of stories that anthropomorphized their theological beliefs giving rise to a personification of their religion in Jesus, who as a consequence took on the the essential traits of the religion itself and in doing so became immortal and omnipresent.

At the very least the story of Jesus is important because it's a very powerful narrative, and humans make sense of their world through narratives because that's what we do: we're story-tellers.

But there's something more to it: Narratives have power --at least the ones that survive the test of time. And as Jeffrey Kripal explains in his book Mutants & Mystics, we write the stories... and the stories write us :)

PS: And of course, with all the most powerful stories, there has to be a certain element of "What if..." ;)
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Understand, no parent gives a bicycle as a present expecting his child to fall and break a leg! But should that happen, it's understood as part of the learning experience of life.

It would be far more harmful to forbid the child to experience all those things and learn from its mistakes, don't you think? ;)

Absolutely, learning about the limits of the physical world through trial and error is an essential part of the human experience. Some experiences are obviously potentially fatal and require extensive preparation or training to master.

Imposing a moral framework guided by a supreme being instead of civil rules established through human experience is another ball game altogether. This is where secularity (much hated by fundamentalists of all creeds) kicks in and crashes into the religion collective and allows (in certain states) marriage between homosexuals for example.

Replacing guidance from a supreme being with much more progressive and self-adjusting secular values is the challenge of our kids. I'm not expecting the Santorum collective to change any time soon :eek:
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
But there's something more to it: Narratives have power --at least the ones that survive the test of time. And as Jeffrey Kripal explains in his book Mutants & Mystics, we write the stories... and the stories write us :)

Bastian's Elementargedanken in a particularly popular cultural manifestation?

The themes of life, death, and renewal seem to spring from our biology itself, being written as it were by the organism's life processes themselves seeking expression through the unconscious mind.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Now who's speculating here? ;)

Besides, who says slavery is a thing of the past?

nike-sweatshops.jpg


In 'The Key', the mysterious man who Strieber later called the master of the Key, told him that each person in the west had 5 slaves. But now it was much easier to own slaves because you don't even have to care for their well-being --you don't even have to know where they live.

World consciousness concerning this situation is improving rapidly and adjustments are in the works. Don't forget that your grandfather was a slave to his farm.
Apple's Chinese iPhone plants employ forced interns, claim campaigners | Technology | The Guardian
The Foxconn chairman, Terry Gou, head of China's largest private-sector employer – with 1.2 million workers – promised on Sunday to reduce hours and improve pay after an independent audit found multiple labour law violations at his factories.


Anyway, the Greeks' decline had nothing to do with the emergence of Christianity.

Nope, during the roman empire Constantine 1 replaced the Imperial cult (polytheism) with christianity:
Emperor Constantine I was exposed to Christianity by his mother, Helena, but he was over 42 when he finally declared himself a Christian.[7] Writing to Christians, Constantine made clear that he believed his successes were owed to the protection of that High God alone.[8]
Constantine I and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So its really the fault of Constantine's mother ;)
 
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