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Imbrogno, Fraud, Stolen Valor

Discussion in 'The Best of Dark Matters Radio' started by Decker, Jul 13, 2011.



  1. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    Philip J. Imbrogno; Academic Fraud and Stolen Valor

    Several years ago I left active research in the UFO field, in a large part because of my disgust in dealing with liars, fraudulent hoaxers, and so many in the field who refused to use their God-given common sense. I have always been proud of my ability to at least try to use my common sense and to detect when someone tries to “put one over on me,” but I have been taken in the past. Of course, doing my radio broadcasts, technically, mean’s I never actually divorced myself totally from the paranormal field, but I keep telling myself that “it’s radio, that is different!” Well, not really.

    With the breaking of the fraudulent credential scandal involving UFO and paranormal researcher and writer Philip J. Imbrogno, I felt myself taking this very personally. I should have known better, because I was made aware of the matter at the very beginning.

    I have a forum on The Paracast called The Dark Matters Radio forum, which was a very generous “gift” from forum host and long-time UFO researcher Mr. Gene Steinberg. I have been there a number of years now, and I have made available to the forum users many of my earlier radio programs and research that my wife and I conducted over the years. The Paracast is a forum where both skeptics and UFO-friendly people hang out, and although there are occasional clashes among the various users, The Paracast is a very civil and enlightened forum where cases and theories are often discussed in great depth.

    Now, as a forum operator I, as a rule, do not interject myself into most discussions or threads unless I feel I have something to contribute of merit. While that is true, there have been several occasions where I did get into several heated discussions with skeptic Lance Moody. Lance has been around paranormal forums for a number of years, and I must admit that I had a bad taste in my mouth concerning Lance, because I have witnessed him personally insult some of the more friendly UFO users, not only on The Paracast but other forums as well. And very recently, he and I clashed when he entered the Dark Matters Forum addressing in negative terms, a show I had scheduled but not yet broadcast. So, it was reasonable, in my mind at least, that I was very skeptical when Lance wrote me several notes asking for my opinion concerning well known author and researcher Philip Imbrogno.

    Now, before I go on, let us discuss Imbrogno.

    I have known Imbrogno, not well, but knew him, for many years. His book (along with J. A. Hynek and Bob Pratt) on the Hudson Valley UFO wave is considered a classic today. Back in the early years of UFO Magazine, which was founded and published by my wife, we often carried articles by Imbrogno. One series that immediately comes to mind is the infamous case of the Indian Point Nuclear Power plant, where the facility was over-flown, reportedly, by a huge, unknown object. We carried all of these articles in UFO and always assumed there was never any reason to suspect anything out of kilter with Imbrogno. He was considered one of the steady and stable UFO researchers on the scene for decades! My contact with Imbrogno always involved UFO material or cases; we never really developed a personal friendship … but let me say this now … I considered him a friend and I believed he was above reproach.

    Lance contacted me after a recent interview I conducted with both Imbrogno and his co-author Rosemary Guiley. Following are the notes from Lance, which of course I saved.

    5-2-2011
    Hi Don,

    I thought I would bring you up to speed on something I have been looking into. Gene is aware of this and I am just trying to figure out what to do with the information. For the moment, I would appreciate it if we kept this private but I would love to hear your insight and any advice you might have. I know you have dealt with this kind of thing before.

    In short, it appears that Dr. Phil Imbrogno is not all he claims to be. My letters and data inquires below will show you what I mean.

    Thanks,

    Lance

    What Lance refers to is the information derived from MIT. Imbrogno claimed on his latest book’s website that he received a Ph.D. from MIT.

    MIT-snapshot.jpg
     
  2. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    Now, once again, I am ashamed to say, my denial and suspicion of the source of this letter made me somewhat recalcitrant to accept it at face value. I did not know if this possibly could mean ulterior motives on the behalf of Lance. However, this is my answer.

    5-3-2011
    Okay, so what is it you want from me? If you are trying to prove that Imbrogno "padded" his resume? Well going for the records is a start if that is your plan. I would caution you however, if you are trying to prove fraud you best make sure you have an air-tight case because if you are wrong ... you will end up in court. I know Phil somewhat and he would sue you (without a doubt in my mind). Do what you have to.

    Decker

    Lance then got back to me.

    5-3-2011
    Got it, Don.

    You look at the evidence I already sent you and think I am only at the start?
    I think I am more at the end.
    MIT says he never got a diploma from MIT. What more might you need to know in order to prove that point?

    Lance

    I felt that Lance was attempting to get me to validate his research. If I am being honest, I then must admit that I felt “sick” over the fact that Imbrogno might end up being another damn fraud.

    5-3-2011
    Lance, like I said in my last note to you, do what you gotta do. I don't quite get it, what is it you want from me? Like I stated in my last communication to you ... if you intend to go after Phil Imbrogno you better make sure your case is air-tight and you crossed all your T's and dotted all your I's. I don't know what else to say.

    Decker

    At this point in this sordid matter, all my BS-flags were madly waving and the bullshit bells were clanging. And, why would Lance Moody need me to validate his research?

    5-3-2011
    Thanks Don,

    I appreciate your answer. I thought you might know Phil enough to know if I was on the wrong track or something--perhaps you know if he attended MIT under some other name, perhaps?
    I wonder if I ought to just ask him at this point. I tried calling the number I found for him but it is disconnected. Do you happen to have an email for him?

    I also wonder what your feelings about the matter might be. Would you be surprised if Phil didn't have the degrees he claims? Do you think that this kind of information ought to be exposed?

    Thanks,

    Lance

    Okay, now I must admit that I felt like maybe I was being set up on this so I laid out all my feelings.

    5-3-2011
    Okay Lance, before you and I go any further with this, I have a question for you.

    Where are you going with this? What's the deal, like what bee got under your bonnet on Imbrogno?

    Let me tell you what I think, okay? You know I was a cop and for what it is worth I still have those cop gut instincts. I think you fancy yourself as the next Phil Klass and you are looking around for some schmuck's scalp that you can hang on your belt, right? I mean lets not bull shit each other. You know I am a pretty straight ahead on kind of guy. I won't bull shit you and you don't bull shit me. A guy, like you, who thinks all of this paranormal stuff is horse shit sure hangs around on a forum that is devoted to it, and occasionally you go out of your way to stir the shit. Why? I mean Lance, why would a guy who thinks the UFO subject is bull shit hang around here with lots of folks who in fact think there is something to the subject, just so you might now and again take a piss in their corn flakes?

    So here is the deal, you tell me what is up or I have no further interest in discussing any of this with you. Now, I do believe that is plain enough.

    Decker

    In hindsight perhaps I was a bit rough but over 20 years of dealing with skeptics along with bullshit artists, I did not trust anyone’s motives to be pure. However this is what I was told next.

    5-3-2011
    Yeah, if someone is falsely claiming to have degrees, etc., I think that should be be exposed. I would have guessed that you would too.

    What do you think the right course of action is?

    I hate poseurs and liars.

    I don't think the paranormal is bullshit. I just doubt that it is paranormal. And I like to discuss that.

    So what's up is that I will expose a liar if I run into a liar.

    Lance

    Well, Lance was correct in that assumption. If you catch someone lying about cases, proof, experiences, academic degrees, and you consider yourself an honest investigator, then you have an obligation to report what you have found. This is what he sent me next.

    5-7-2011
    Hi Don,

    Enclosed find the response I got from MIT.

    I have been diligently searching for evidence that Imbrogno himself claimed these degrees (as opposed to other people perhaps mistakenly claiming them in their introductions or web sites). I had to listen to lots of podcasts in order to find that evidence but I finally hit pay-dirt last night, finding him clearly making the claim himself.

    I wonder if word of my research (or whatever this is) has gotten back to him?

    You may be interested that his Djinn site used to say:

    "Imbrogno holds undergraduate and graduate degrees in physics, astronomy and chemistry from the University of Texas and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In 2010 he was awarded a Ph.D. in theoretical chemistry from MIT. "

    Now all that has been removed in the last few days!

    I know you were a cop (so was my Dad) so I think you can sense the way the wind is blowing?

    I asked you about how you might feel about this kind of exposure? I know that we got off on the wrong foot. I wrongly discounted your formidable experience, history and knowledge and I regret that and apologize for it. But even if you dislike me, surely you think that fraud should be exposed in the field of the paranormal regardless of whether the information comes from a prickly skeptic or not? After listening to your podcast, I like to think that I know that you do.

    Best,

    Lance

    Suddenly the paranormal pot began to boil over with this story. I kept my counsel but I also kept a keen eye on who was starting to talk about this, and what they were saying. Imbrogno was a large name in the UFO and paranormal field, long felt by most … although not all … as being above reproach. I called Imbrogno and one thing that gave me pause was the oddly defensive way he reacted when I raised questions about his degrees. Also, I might note in this narrative, I often get notes from listeners after a show airs and several months ago I received one from a guy who heard my first interview with Imbrogno when we discussed his “dream team” back in the late 1970’s. According to Imbrogno, after he and his team encountered a very nasty paranormal case two members of the team allegedly died under mysterious circumstances. The listener wanted to know if I had “followed up” on this story. As I told him at the time, most of what I do - the radio show, my various writings, etc., are mostly a “one man band” and I simply do not have the time to follow up each story, even though I might wish to. Then something else hit me. On the last two shows with Imbrogno he made a point of mentioning his “Viet Nam military service” while a member of the U.S. Army’s elite Special Forces.

    Now, since the Viet Nam war is long over, some of the following may or may not be familiar to you. There was a violent revulsion to members of the U.S. Armed Forces during and right after the Viet Nam war. Ask anyone you may know who may have served in the military or Viet Nam during the war. I experienced this revulsion when I came home, Kevin Randle Ph.D. experienced it when he came home, for years it was hard to get most veterans to admit that they served in Viet Nam. It was not until the early 1980’s after the Viet Nam Memorial was erected, that a new phenomenon swept the land … the imaginary combat veteran suddenly appeared, bestowed with medals, spouting amazing stories filled with derring-do on the field of battle and wearing a Green Beret. (Or possibly a U.S. Navy Seal, they are out there, to.) I began to wonder about Imbrogno’s claims of having been a part of the Army’s elite Special Forces.

    Let’s take a moment and discuss the phenomenon of “Stolen Valor,” first from a very personal perspective.

    My family has a very, very long tradition of military service. Though my knowledge is somewhat sketchy, this tradition began on my mother’s side of the family and extends back to prior to the American Revolution. Four or five generations ago, a male ancestor on my maternal grandfather’s side was a rather famous Pennsylvania rifle smith who learned his trade of gun smithing out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. His name was George S. Fay, and his rifles became known for their accuracy and fine craftsmanship. His son or grandson fought during the War of 1812. Later, we had family members who somehow ended up in Texas during the incident at the Alamo and who died either during or right after the battle of San Jacinto. More male ancestors fought for the Union during the Civil War; several were killed in combat. More recently, my maternal grandfather was a veteran of both World War I and World War II. My father was a vet of World War II, after which he was called back into the Army and sent to Korea during that unheralded war. Mom was not very happy!

    When it was my turn, I enlisted in the Army in 1969. I had one hell of an argument with my dad about my military enlistment, as he thought the whole ’Nam war was bullshit. His attitude was pretty simple; we kicked hell out of Germany and Japan because we went full bore--“balls to the wall,” so to speak--and did it in four years. Yet we dicked around in Viet Nam, with no apparent intention of winning. (Kind of like the horseshit going on today in Afghanistan.) He saw the entire Viet Nam conflict as futile. I had been in college, but left to enlist, which really pissed him off. But that was my decision.

    I wanted to fly helicopters but was chosen by the Army to join something I had never heard of, the United States Army Security Agency. I had no damned idea what it was, what it did or how they did it. But it meant that government investigators just about stuck a microscope up my ass, checking every aspect of my life, because in order to serve in ASA you had to be vetted for and given a Top Security clearance.


    cont. next
     
  3. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    The very first combat death in Viet Nam was from my unit. Spec. 4 James T. Davis was killed on December 22, 1961. On another footnote, the last two men killed from ASA were friends of mine, Spec. 5 Gary Westcott and Spec. 4 Bruce Crosby. Westcott and Crosby were not very far from my site on the DMZ, a spot known as FS Sarge. When the communists launched their “Easter Offensive” on March 30, 1972, a 122-mm rocket hit their bunker, setting off high explosives stored inside, killing them. (Their bodies were never recovered.) That same day, my position was overrun by elements of two communist divisions, which began a very bad week for me, personally.

    Crosby.jpg Bruce Crosby

    Westcott.jpg Gary Westcott

    With the above in mind, you may now know why I feel very strongly about people who claim combat honors they did not earn or have. Feel strongly? Hell, it enrages me . . . and now I will tell you why.

    Several million U.S. vets returned from Viet Nam during the ’60s and ’70s, and were forced to endure the widespread anti-military feelings promoted and encouraged by the political left. As if we combat veterans had anything to do with what caused the war in Viet Nam! Yet we suffered as if we were personally responsible. We were spat upon, called vile names like “baby killers” and in many other ways were discriminated against by the public. (Not the entire public, of course, but many who were swayed by the largely leftist propaganda.) Weekly television shows like “The Mod Squad” showed “Viet Nam veterans” returning from the war strung out on drugs, engaging in violent acts like armed robbery and murder. Ultimately we were all painted with that vicious brush wielded by the Hollywood left. This mischaracterization stuck with the TV-watching public. I am being honest here--I loathed those ignorant fuckers! They knew no more about Viet Nam than they knew about the proper procedure to get into a whorehouse. The result was pretty simple; most guys who served started to simply keep their mouth shut, refusing to discuss it. That lasted until the early to mid-1980s.

    After the Viet Nam Memorial was built in Washington D.C., the national attitude started to change. Many suddenly realized how terribly the U.S. military’s ’Nam veterans were treated. As time went on and other wars started to brew, ’Nam vets started to get their due. (My reaction? Sorry, pal, too little and too late for this trooper. Fuck you, you people who now feel compelled to apologize.) The purported love affair America now has with her soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines is a result of this failure to treat her Viet Nam vets with the respect they deserve.

    Now we get to the crux of this matter, the next big thing that hit: Phony combat veterans. It is why I am here writing about the case of Philip J. Imbrogno. We have shown that his academic credentials are as full of bullshit as a cow pasture. What about his military claims?
    I placed a call into a retired Special Force’s Viet Nam veteran I know who lives in Texas, is a member of the Special Forces Association, and knows many, many SF Vet’s . (Oh, by the way, want to be a part of the Special Forces Association? You must serve a minimum of 10 years in the Special Forces)
    cont. next
     
  4. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    Major George Bassett, by the way his nom de guerre, gave me his bona fides. “I entered the Army in 1968 originally to beat the draft as an RA. (Regular Army) Although I was signed up for Armor OCS (Officer Candidate School) , I ended up in Special Forces Training Group that same year and graduated as a Special Forces Medical Supervisor (91B4S) assigned to 6th SFG. (Special Forces Group) Late in 1969 I went to Infantry OCS and graduated and returned to 7th SFG. From there I volunteered for Special Forces RVN and got stuck with the 173rd Airborne Brigade. The 173rd folded its colors that summer and I found my way back to USARV ITG (later FANK). It was composed of members of the 5th SFG that stayed behind to train the Cambodian Army. I DEROS in March 1972 to the States; went on Active Reserve status, graduated Texas A&M, and joined the reserve 12th SFG in Fort Worth, TX. I eventually was transferred to the 11th SFG in Richmond, VA and later went MobDes to 1st SOCOM (Special Warfare Center, Combat Developments) at Ft. Bragg. My civilian job was unique to my military job at SWC. As a civilian I was an Advanced Design Assistant Project Engineer (APE) with General Dynamics Corporation Fort Worth Division. To the best of my knowledge I was the only SF serving officer ever to work aerospace / aviation technology programs at the DA and DoD level.”

    Major Bassett, as we can see, traveled around the “block” a few times. I raised the question of Imbrogno’s age, as he was born in 1951. This would have meant that during the time frame that he would have served in Viet Nam he would have been age 20 or 21. The age requirement of Special Forces was 21 years of age. Imbrogno would have been too young.

    One other thing that Imbrogno claimed was having been on “across the fence” missions. What he was trying to say was this .. he served in MACV-SOG. MACV-SOG was an extremely classified group of men, as black as black could be, that conducted missions in Cambodia, Laos and even North Vietnam. MACV-SOG stood for “Military Assistance Command-Vietnam, Studies and Observation Group. MACV-SOG had three areas they operated in, CCN, CCC, CCS. This stood for Command and Control North, Central and South. Had Imbrogno served in Cambodia this means he would have been part of MACV-SOG CCS. This is a very tight little group of survivors who all know each other. (Also, as an enlisted man he would have had to have been at least a Staff Sgt. or E-6, unlikely at that age.)

    During some interviews posted on You Tube where Imbrogno discussed some of his research and investigations I saw this photo of his office and screen grabbed the following photo.

    GreenBeret.jpg
    Note what appears to be a skull behind his left shoulder with a Green Beret placed clumsily on it.

    In order to be fair I sent Imbrogno an email telling him I was vetting his claims of Special Forces and cross the fence operations to the Special Forces Association. I informed him I had contacts in the special warfare community, and I asked him to please contact me with anything he wished to either make clear or any mitigating circumstances. Here is my note to him.

    Phil,

    Okay, I have been following your current problems concerning your academic credentials and the (now) large scandal in paranormal circles.

    I will tell you up front, I am vetting your claims of having been in Special Forces-in Viet Nam. I am in contact with the Special Forces Association and know a number of people from the special warfare community.

    Allow me to say this … if you have anything to tell me about this please do so now before I get official word back. I am working on a paper that I will publish when it is complete. If you have anything to say, say it now and I will include it. If you remain silent … well I think that will speak volumes.

    Don

    Imbrogno never sent me a word, which I found curious since he was in contact with the host’s of the Paratopia radio show. Up on the “Above Top Secret” website the Paratopia host’s stated that Imbrogno had given them reasons that his information (academic information, not military) were not publicly available. The reasons were not given by Paratopia’s hosts, since according to what they stated publicly, they had promised to withhold it for a certain length of time. One reason however, given to Lance Moody early on was that his diploma was “sealed.” Huh? I could find no mention anywhere of such an academic honor being sealed. Why would they seal it? You work hard for four or more years and then no one can see it? Employers, military, whoever? Yeah, right.
    As I was in the process of completing this report, no verification of Imbrogno serving in the U. S. Army’s Special Forces, much less MACV-SOG was found by the SF Association. Imbrogno offered no copies of his DD-214. (Military Separation documents.) Since this scandal broke he has with-drawn from paranormal research, changed his telephone number and gotten a new and covert email address. His former working partner, Ms. Rosemary E. Guiley has broken her working relationship from Imbrogno. The paranormal field has once again been given a huge black eye from another person that felt the need to lie … for whatever reason. Okay, this has happened in the past and will undoubtedly happen in the future. But there is more here than meets the eye if you stop to think about it.

    The young men and women that put their lives aside to serve in the Armed Forces and perhaps lose their lives, make a sacrifice for all of us that can never be repaid. If you have never worn the uniform of the armed forces, this may not seem like much to you. If so, all you have to do is recall September 11, 2001 and turn on the evening news to hear about the servicemen and women that are currently serving, and in some cases bleeding and dying right now in a number of war zones. For someone, anyone to try to steal their valor … that far exceeds simple academic fraud. I think there may be a special place in Hell for such a thief, and if not … there sure as hell should be.

    Don Ecker
     
  5. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    Thanks, Don.

    One thing I do want to say: I wasn't a fan of the Viet Nam war. but our brave soldiers deserve our support 110% for their bravery and sacrifices. They should not suffer for the sometimes unfortunate decisions made by the politicians in Washington. And when someone fakes their military credentials, they are spitting on every one who did serve, especially those who suffered in battle.
     
  6. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks Gene, but as one who saw war firsthand, and knowing many, many veterans, I can say that no one I know is a fan of any God-damned war.

    Decker
     
  7. Sean Elifritz

    Sean Elifritz Administrator

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    OK, you haven't been able to find any verification that he served in the special forces (At this point I'm not at all surprised). Is there record that he served at all, in any capacity?
     
  8. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    I did not check if he was in the military, if he would furnish his DD-214 .. if he has one, this would answer the question. What I can say is .. he was not Special Forces. He lied about that and his academic background. If he lied about those things, how do we believe anything he says now?

    Decker
     
  9. Sean Elifritz

    Sean Elifritz Administrator

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    Hey, I'm with ya'. My inquiry wasn't in defense of him at all. Was just wondering how far this particular thread of deception went (Military) as I'm also wondering if in addition to his MIT degree being phony if his other ones might be as well.
     
  10. blowfish

    blowfish Whittingham

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    For those who have served and are serving god bless you!

     
  11. Decker

    Decker Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey, let me say this ... about that.

    I hated doing this. My stomach was in a knot the whole time I was working on this. My visceral reaction dealing with this Stolen Valor thing, dragging all that fucking Nam shit up again, well my wife would tell you I have been stomping around here like a grizzly bear with a sore teat. Especially with a guy you think you know somewhat. All the dickheads I dealt with over the years, lying bastards .. after awhile it gets to you. Bill Cooper, Dan Burish, Jonathan Reed, Guy Kirkwood, George Greene, and on and on. It makes me doubt myself that I hung around this shit for so fucking long.

    A long time ago I thought that with honest and in-depth research, the right cases, etc. that a honest case could be made for this fucking field. Now? Not so fucking much.
     
  12. Simone_m

    Simone_m Paranormal Adept

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  13. Hotkafka

    Hotkafka Sanity is a default

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    Holy jeebuz. If that was Phil, it certainly is telling that he never really manages to address the issue (i.e. fraud) and instead turns the whole thing on its head and claims himself as the victim. Lack of insight, or just plain to self-centered to even care to address the heart of the matter? Sad. I suppose if the UFO reading public had just learned to bracket off their expectations, demand less and just "be happy," all would still be groovy in Imbrogno Land. Curious this all coincides with his retirement and reaching the end of his publishing contract (if this if fact turns out to be true).
     
  14. cottonzway

    cottonzway I was saying boo-urns

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    What a sad situation.
     
  15. Terjarv

    Terjarv Paranormal Adept

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    If it a genuine post by Imbrogno, hes completely lost it.
     
  16. Sean Elifritz

    Sean Elifritz Administrator

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    If it was him he admitted the MIT degree was fake when he said:

    "Inew if I put the MIT thing in you would all go wild! Actually I was always refused even though I did spend quite a bit of time up there attending most of the lectures, presentations, # I was ready to clean the toilets to get in the grad program."

    Or, in other words (What I take from it anyway): he applied, was rejected, so he lied about it.

    There's a fragment earlier...:

    "When pressure for a school I have always thrown out a differemnt name, didn't anybody pick up on that."

    ...which could be further admission of fraud. But I'm not sure. Could interpret that a few different ways I suppose. The post is disjointed, rambling, brimming with bad grammar, spelling errors, etc.
     
  17. Anaximander

    Anaximander Paranormal Adept

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    Thanks for the post Don.

    It's nasty work writing such a post, nasty and necessary.


    I'm not sure if Imbrogno's seen it, but someone claiming to be him has posted the following to ATS and part of the post is addressed to you - check it out:


     
  18. softbeard

    softbeard Paranormal Adept

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    I've never really heard of Phil Imbrogno before, but listened to one of the Paracast's with him as guest after all the hoopla about him started. I noticed one thing that I'm pretty certain about; no 'scientist' with a Phd from MIT (or any other university) in chemistry would talk the way he talks about 'wormholes and parallel universes'. I mean it's almost laughable.
    Djinn from alternate realities?...right.

    ---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------

    Probably drunk.
     
  19. Ron Collins

    Ron Collins Curiously Confused

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    I ill post my updated findings tomorrow or Friday. Quick note to say that no, they are not real. The only possible exception is the UT credential. It is taking time to search. But so far no match.

    ---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------

    I read the badboy666 bullshit. If that was Phil he still cant tell the truth. I personally like how he claims that Phillip J Imbrogno is not his real name. His real name is a secret. Oh, but it is getting harder and harder to teach real science now that everyone is throwing his name out there. You know the fake name that he doesn't go by at work. WTF?
     
  20. Sean Elifritz

    Sean Elifritz Administrator

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    Wait a minute. He's claiming Phil Imbrogno is not his real name? I thought he was saying something else. Well, like I said before some of the things he said were so vague they could be interpreted in different ways. But now that I look at it again I suppose it could mean what you're saying.
     
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