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Friedman and Alexander



trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Great show! I enjoyed hearing the back and forth. Alexander's message is a simple one really. Yes, UFOs are real, the military is aware of them, they just have no interest in them beyond some immediate operational necessity. He seemed just as frustrated and taken back by that finding as anyone else. Rightly or wrongly, as he said, there is no Dept. of Good Ideas, certainly the current situation with the economy is a prime example of the failure of that notion. Wouldn't it be nice if the guys from D.G.I. would show up, give somebody a hammer and say, "Stop driving nails with your forehead, here, use this." and mysteriously disappear?

I thought he completely ducked the NRO question though. Stan tried to ask him about it again but was ignored. How could the NRO not have some concerted effort to track and understand the behavior of UFOs? It boogles the mind. Just like American politics boggles the mind.

I appreciated the deconstruction of the Corso affair as well. What an incredibly strange case. What is the whole story behind the co-authoring, etc.,etc.? It is convoluted to say the least. In one manuscript Corso meets a time traveling alien in the desert if I'm not mistaken.
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I enjoyed the show very much, Without seeming to criticise the ad breaks which i know are essential to the show.
Where there more than usual in this one ?
It seemed like there were, but this is likely due to the degree of extra interest i had in this show.
the ads never bother me, but in this show it seemed like they kept popping up faster than usual, no doubt because i was hanging on every word.

Thanks Hosts, Guests and Sponsors for a great discussion
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

The ad breaks have not changed. We submitted the recordings, as usual, in 12 segments, and the total duration was pretty much the same as last week (within a second actually).
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Thanks gene, i figured it was the case, no doubt my sense there were, was like the watched pot never boils adage
 

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I felt the same way Mike did actually, the ad breaks normally don't bother me as well. Great show, Gene and Chris.
 

exo_doc

Foolish Earthling
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Mac-Users just want to see the World burn.. ;)

WOW! That is such a Zen Truth...you must have attained enlightenment sun!

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

Now that was my kind of show!
Two guys at opposite ends of the spectrum in a civilized debate....no straw men...no add hominem....a really damn good show!
 

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Trying, adding fuel to the fire might help ;)

It really was excellent and informative, especially in that both got to explain their stance on the subject with caveats and all, for once. Not as far apart as one would think.
 
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Great show Gene & Chris,
Still keep an open mind on the Mr Nick Cook and Dr Farrell theory regards paperclip technologies and above top secret -need to know :) Enjoyed the professional debate and both are credit to true ufology research.:)
 

boomerang

Paranormal Adept
Mr. moderator, I didn't see an established thread discussing the last show. So please move this or merge or whatever if it is out of place.

Because I want to give this one a full 5 Stars. The debate was spirited and information rich, and Gene did a first rate job as referee. Here we have 2 experts who actually know their facts and history--very refreshing!-- in a kind of disagreement that is constructive. IMO, this one is a Paracast classic. :)
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Yes, that was one of the better shows in a while. The debate seems to really be centered on the question of whether the government has a interest in and some working knowledge of UFOs.

One of the major problems with this is "Who or what is this government that is spoken of?" The government is a mass of separate entities operating under various and sometimes contradictory purposes and procedures. John says he has gotten in front of the directors of many of these entities and that their reactions indicate a lack of knowledge of the subject. Could there be some black silence group that operates outside of these agencies that these directors and John had no visibility into? That is a possibility, but you have to think if there was someone who could have found them or found evidence of a concerted effort to understand UFOs John Alexander would have been that guy. Certainly if they are so dark and secretive that someone with John's connections, interest, and motivation, cannot find evidence of them, is it possible for someone not directly plugged into the system to do so?

I think this is part of not asking the right question. The right question isn't, "What does the government know?" or any question including the nebulous word government in it.

Having said that, "What is the right question?"
 

Jeff Crowell

Paranormal Annoyance
I really don't like or get into the whole government conspiracy debate-stuff but I have to agree that this was one of the best PC's in recent times. I really enjoyed the debate and found both Stanton and John well-informed and educated on their stances. I am more partial to believe John's position on the debate but can certainly see Stanton's as well. Stanton's is more seeing shadows in the darkness, though, which would lead to the circular logic of having to find proof of a government cover-up, and then there's, "Oh, there is no proof. They conceal it too well," and so-forth. Oh it gives me headaches but I certainly believe there is validity behind Stanton's beliefs.

I also 100% agree with trainedobserver's post above mine in which he points out the compartmentalization of the government. If "the government" knows about UFO's and there's a cover-up about them, I would guest-imate that less than 1% of the government is aware of such a thing. That leaves 99% of our government that isn't aware, believes UFO's are bunk, and is meshed in plausible deny-ability. This 99% of our government, through no fault of their own, believes in the conclusions based on the Condon Report and feels like the investigation and claims into UFO's needs to go no further. Yes, that does leave the door open for that other 1% but they're carefully concealed to have functioned this long without discovery.

In the end it's all speculation, though. We may never know, at least in our life-times, and as it's been said before, if we do find out it won't be our government coming clean about it, it will be ET (or CT or whom-ever) revealing themselves to us, the American populace.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
In the end it's all speculation, though. We may never know, at least in our life-times, and as it's been said before, if we do find out it won't be our government coming clean about it, it will be ET (or CT or whom-ever) revealing themselves to us, the American populace.

I agree completely. However, I think Alexander's observation that America is not the logical point of contact is very astute. China or India seems more likely. But who knows what the criteria for contact might actually be? Maybe they're looking for one-armed farmers with broken cameras. Then again, probably not.
 

campbell71

Skilled Investigator
Just like to say that I'm only half way through listening but what a great show this is turning out to be. Good job they're miles apart or it sounds like it could be reduced to fisticuffs!! Looking forward to the remainder....
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Friedman thrashed Alexander time and again ... it was funny. As if we're supposed to believe that nobody in the government anyplace cares about UFOs. Maybe that's true if they are no longer being seen by USAF pilots or tracked by Space Command because they know somehow that they've all moved on to the next star system. But are we really expected to believe that if they are still showing up that they wouldn't notice, and that if they did notice they wouldn't care? Alexander's premise is so full of holes it makes me wonder if it isn't disinformation. Read between the lines ... on the surface he's saying nobody cares, but between the lines he's saying they know they are here, which means somebody has to care someplace, but since he couldn't find them, they are beyond his reach. That's what is really being said.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Friedman thrashed Alexander time and again ... it was funny. As if we're supposed to believe that nobody in the government anyplace cares about UFOs. Maybe that's true if they are no longer being seen by USAF pilots or tracked by Space Command because they know somehow that they've all moved on to the next star system. But are we really expected to believe that if they are still showing up that they wouldn't notice, and that if they did notice they wouldn't care? Alexander's premise is so full of holes it makes me wonder if it isn't disinformation. Read between the lines ... on the surface he's saying nobody cares, but between the lines he's saying they know they are here, which means somebody has to care someplace, but since he couldn't find them, they are beyond his reach. That's what is really being said.

You are not hearing what the man is saying. It isn't that individuals who encounter these things and have an operational necessity (identify, avoid, pursue, etc.) don't care about them. It simply that there is no institutional interest in pursuing the matter as many ufologists might imagine. There is a big difference and I do understand that it is hard to understand this fact. I think he did an excellent job of describing why this is so, if not in that debate, at least in his book. Have you read the book? He obviously thinks they should be studied that a special effort should be made, he is just saying as an institutionalized effort it isn't happening. If nobody wants to pay for something, it just doesn't get done. Not on this planet anyway.

As much as you and I think this is an important issue, it isn't a given that the disparate entities that compose our governments think that it is. I'm sure both of could come up with several things our governments should be doing but aren't for whatever reason.
 

THX1138

Paranormal Peria
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I just want to say that Gene's suggestion of the creation of stantonfriedmanXXX.com conjures for me an mental image more disturbing than my gentle sensibilities can process without inducing a full-body shudder. :eek:

In all seriousness, I have but three words with which to describe my feelings about this episode -

BEST

SHOW

EVER!


Wayne Charlton
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

You are not hearing what the man is saying. It isn't that individuals who encounter these things and have an operational necessity (identify, avoid, pursue, etc.) don't care about them. It simply that there is no institutional interes in pursuing the matter as many ufologists might imagine. There is a big difference and I do understand that it is hard to understand this fact. I think he did an excellent job of describing why this is so, if not in that debate, at least in his book. Have you read the book? He obviously thinks they should be studied that a special effort should be made, he is just saying as an institutionalized effort it isn't happening. If nobody wants to pay for something, it just doesn't get done. Not on this planet anyway.

As much as you and I think this is an important issue that the


train,

I don't buy it it for one second. Let's go through this step by step. If aliens are still coming here and we're able to detect them, and we haven't got some undisclosed diplomatic agreement with them, there are no doubt operational procedures within the institutions for tracking and intercepting them. Therefore those institutions are going to both care and investigate ( pursue ). When they do, there are going to be follow up procedures ... debriefings, reports etc, and that means somebody has to to initiate and follow up on them. What do you think is going to happen after they send an inteceptor after a UFO? Is the pilot just going to park his Lightning and go back to playing video games? Business as usual? Hey guys it was nothing ... just another UFO chase? There is just no way you can expect anyone to believe that.

So sure there would probably be a report required. But then Alexander expects us to believe nobody is going to pay any attention to it? He must be kidding. As if it's just going to sit on the C.O.'s desk for an eternity, or get filed in some big warehouse along with the Roswell wreckage and the lost Ark. That's just plain absurd. These people keep tabs on everything ... every little nothing country with a freaking landing strip. You think they don't keep tabs on UFOs? These guys have a radar system that detects objects passing over America as small as 10 cm out to 30,000 kilometers ... and that's only a teeny tiny tip of the iceberg. They've got sensor satellites out past the moon. They spend billions of dollars on space surveillance, detection and monitoring ... but Alexander would have you believe they just ignore the UFOs because that would cost a little extra? I'm sorry but that's just plain ludicrous.

If UFOs ( alien craft ) are still visiting Earth, then the defense departments of all nations on Earth will be in on monitoring and investigating them and hoping to be the first in on the catch ... including the USA. Imagine the significance of letting the other guys get there first! If Alexander expects us to believe that the defense agencies know about UFOs but have no coordinated effort built into their procedures for dealing with them, he must really underestimate the ability of people to think for themselves. Of course he was part of that mind control stuff ... so I suppose that wouldn't be surprising.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

train, I don't buy it it for one second. Let's go through this step by step.

Ok, sounds like a good idea.

If aliens are still coming here and we're able to detect them, and we haven't got some undisclosed diplomatic agreement with them, there are no doubt operational procedures within the institutions for tracking and intercepting them.

What are the assumptions here? Aliens have visited Earth in the past. Aliens are visiting now.

These are both large assumptions that are impossilbe to support. While they are both well within the realm of possiblity, we (or at least I don't) have enough evidence to positively identify the origin of Unidentified Flying Objects as being extra-terrestial, extra-solar, or extra-dimensional for that matter.

Aliens are purely speculative at this point. That there are Unidentified Flying Objects of apparent artifical origin operating under intelligent control within our controled airspaces is about far as it is safe to go with it.

Therefore those institutions are going to both care and investigate ( pursue ). When they do, there are going to be follow up procedures ... debriefings, reports etc, and that means somebody has to to initiate and follow up on them. What do you think is going to happen after they send an inteceptor after a UFO? Is the pilot just going to park his Lightning and go back to playing video games? Business as usual? Hey guys it was nothing ... just another UFO chase? There is just no way you can expect anyone to believe that.

You have obviously studied the history of UFOs. There are numerous acccounts of what happens and what some of the procedures are, you tell me what generally occurs. It seems to vary all the way from people being reassigned to different bases and told not to talk to them staring in a documentary about the incident.

It is a large assumption that anyone fulfiling a role with a specific job classificaiton follows up on UFOs beyond their realm of operational necessity. While I agree there should be an Office of Unidentifed Arial Phenomena there apparently isn't. NSA, NRO, CIA, and OSI all have expressed interest in the UFOs and have functions that would logically put such things within their scope of operations. However, how that interest is expressed within the context of their responsibiities and budgets probably doesn't match up with what we think it should be. I think its obvious that it doesn't.

...keep tabs...They spend billions of dollars on space surveillance, detection and monitoring ... but Alexander would have you believe they just ignore the UFOs because that would cost a little extra? I'm sorry but that's just plain ludicrous.

Individuals fullfilling specfic job roles generally do very little outside of their job descriptions and budgets. Alexander is telling us this is how it works in these agencies and branches of military as well. It makes perfect sense from an economic and beaucratic sense if not a purely military or strategic one as we might imagine those things to be.

His point isn't that they ignore them at all. His point is they don't care about them. On operational levels they are dealt with as needed but there is no over-arching inter-agency funded effort concentrating on figuring UFOs out that he could find. His conclusions are based on his experinece and knowledge of how things work. But honestly now, because what he says isn't what you want to believe doesn't mean it isn't based on the best information available to him and by extention us.

...If UFOs ( alien craft ) are still visiting Earth, then the defense departments of all nations on Earth will be in on monitoring and investigating them and hoping to be the first in on the catch ... including the USA. Imagine the significance of letting the other guys get there first! If Alexander expects us to believe that the defense agencies know about UFOs but have no coordinated effort built into their procedures for dealing with them, he must really underestimate the ability of people to think for themselves. Of course he was part of that mind control stuff ... so I suppose that wouldn't be surprising.

A bunch of ifs, assumptions, and speculations not the least of which that these things have been Identifed.They have not.

You also assume that individuals are thinking for themselves in these situations. They aren't. They are governed by procedure, budgets, and their own spheres of concern and control in highly regulated environments.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I think what we should take away from Alexander is this.

UFOs are real as they are recorded by sensors and seen by credible human observers.
Due to the situation calling for a governmental Disclosure is completely pointless.
Instead, we should be calling for a formal investigation into the UFO mystery by the government.
 
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