Concerning Exorcism

[dyingsun]

This must have been recorded close before her death in 1976 (the movie 'the Exorcist' came out in 1973) and it scares the crap out of me. As far as i can translate it, she is pretty much spot on with what 'Regan' in the movie was spewing forth, insulting the Priest(s) and 'god'.

It still scares the crap out of me.

 

[Kandinsky]

She sounds like the female version of those Hitler videos where he kicks off about Unreal Tournament not loading fast enough.

I've worked with kids who self-harm and are in the wastelands of mental illness. The stuff they can do to themselves and others whilst being abusive would shock the hell out of most folk. I don't want to sound all flippant or sarcastic, but if waving a Bible and chanting some stuff at them would help, believe me, I'd be doing it.

 

[dyingsun]

She sounds like the female version of those Hitler videos where he kicks off about Unreal Tournament not loading fast enough.

I've worked with kids who self-harm and are in the wastelands of mental illness. The stuff they can do to themselves and others whilst being abusive would shock the hell out of most folk. I don't want to sound all flippant or sarcastic, but if waving a Bible and chanting some stuff at them would help, believe me, I'd be doing it.

Hehe, damn, that vid was great! The 'real'/first one with the kid was hilarious as well.

I deliberately didn't pass any judgment on the video other then that the sounds get to me somewhat. There are so many mental Illnesses these days...a severe case of schizophrenia would be my unqualified first guess, but still..letting that girl die merely 34 years ago ?

 

[Kandinsky]

Seems to me that the whole exorcism scenario is like mainlining basic human fears of the unknown...it's disturbing and scary-ass stuff.

I know there's a case for exorcists being rational guys. On the other hand, can a man who's been raised to believe in evil entities have the judgement to allow for alternative solutions or explanations? Maybe these people should only be allowed to hit someone with a Bible after at least gaining a degree in psychology?

As for the sounds being disturbing? I had to turn the sound off after about 5 seconds

 

[dyingsun]

You make a great point there, and it seems not much has changed concerning the catholic church short of burning the 'mentally Ill'/witches.

I'm just stumped that something like that happened just a 'few' years ago.But thats Bavaria for ya.

I know that the boy the Novel from Blatty (exorcist) is still alive today and doing fine apparently, as far as I know.
I think of those days as psychology with a sledgehammer, for some with religious background it seemed to work sometimes at least, those without...next stop Waverly Hills or a facility like it..

Odd subject really, but I want you to listen from minute 1.25 to the end...

 

[James121]

The basic means of exorcism are the mantra and the yajna used in both Vedic and Tantric traditions. Vaishnava traditions also employ a recitation of names of Narasimha and reading scriptures (notably Bhagavata Purana) aloud. According to Gita Mahatmya of Padma Purana, reading the 3rd, 7th and 8th chapter of Bhagavad Gita and mentally offering the result to departed persons helps them to get released from their ghostly situation. Kirtan, continuous playing of mantras, keeping scriptures and holy pictures of the deities (Shiva,Vishnu,Brahma,Shakti e.t.c) (esp. of Narasimha) in the house, burning incense offered during a puja, sprinkling water from holy rivers, and blowing conches used in puja are other effective practices.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Seems to me that the whole exorcism scenario is like mainlining basic human fears of the unknown...it's disturbing and scary-ass stuff.

I know there's a case for exorcists being rational guys. On the other hand, can a man who's been raised to believe in evil entities have the judgement to allow for alternative solutions or explanations? Maybe these people should only be allowed to hit someone with a Bible after at least gaining a degree in psychology?

As for the sounds being disturbing? I had to turn the sound off after about 5 seconds

Before an exorcism is granted by the catholic church, full psychological and psychiatric testing must be performed on the the subject. In fact there is quite a process involved before the Roman Ritual can be performed.

 

[Polterwurst]

I'm just stumped that something like that happened just a 'few' years ago.But thats Bavaria for ya.

Yup. When I read an article about the case for the first time, I thought there must have been a typo. 1876 or 1476 would have been more likely. I'm really sad to think this happened when I was 5 years old and living in a bubble of ignorance. But you're right, Bavaria can be (or could be more so back then) quite medieval in places. There have been places like that near where I live, too, but I think, the age of enlightenment is finally getting there (although recently I see an alarming tendency to go back to the old Catholic traditions).

About the strange voice an the curses uttered by Anneliese, I haven't heard or read about anything really unexplainable. I think someone with a mental problem, possibly induced by puberty and religious fanaticism, would sound just like that if he or she is convinced that some unholy evil spirit is driving him or her to do and think all those forbidden things that come with adolescence and use these forbidden words.

What worries me most is that "our" pope is indeed giving out orders to further exorcism rites. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read about that (I think it was 2007). Allegedly it was originally the idea of the old pope. I guess you can't expect any better from a guy who headed the "Congregation for the doctrine of the faith" once, but John Paul...?

Well, I guess this tendency has to with the dwindling numbers of true Catholic believers these days.Maybe they've realized that they can't keep people from leaving the Church with the more liberal style of the last 30, 40 years so now they go back to their origins, preaching hell and damnation, as they did in medieval times (maybe not openly this time). I actually listened to a theologian giving a speech (some time in the 90s) about how movies like "the Exorcist" made more people interested in Catholicism than any liberal priest speaking about doing good and being open to other religions.

I even suspect that some of the recent movies based on real exorcisms might come from that line of thought. I mean, "The Rite" wasn't a bad movie but it's based on that book by the priest who says he had these experiences. And the message IMO is clear: believe and you'll be saved, don't believe and you'll be the plaything of demons.

Man, and to think that Tourette syndrom was first described in the 1880s. Combine that with religious fanaticism, and there you have your demon possession. Of course, the question remains if there are really some unexplainable things going on (like "speaking in tongues" , clairvoyance etc.), but even those, if they are for real (I guess they have to be verified by a priest, but just how stict are these verifications?) don't have to be induced by some hell-dweller.

I wonder what's up with all the talk about demons these days. Even the aliens are now hell's messengers. Maybe there is something to spirits, jinn and all that jazz (even demons if you go by the original, neutral meaning of the word), I can't really disregard that, given that I think I have evidence that consciousness can exist without the brain.
But do we have to go back to medieval superstition because of that?

Cases like this really make me sad. Maybe Anneliese Michel had a mental problem, partly induced by her family's overly strict faith) or something. Maybe a psychiatrist could have helped her (although I fear she would have ended up in a mental institution for years if not for good, because these guys are really not much better than the exorcists in that they say they know what the real problem is, but really - IMO - they are just prescribing pills, vaguely hoping that this will do some good).

I can't help but think of Einstein's quote about the two things that are infinite.

 

[tyder001]

I tried to read The Rite (after seeing the movie.) The movie kind of creeped me out at times. But, I couldn't finish the book. I'm not Catholic and it did read like a "tract" in places. Although, I don't share the absolute distaste for religion that some on here do. I'm seen enough to know I don't want to join the club. Been there (protestant) got the t-shirt and moved on.

 

[mike]

The poor girl was mentally ill, had been in and out of psych wards.

Anneliese Michel was born on September 21, 1952 in Leiblfing, Bavaria, Germany to a strict Catholic family. When she was sixteen, she suffered a severe convulsion and was diagnosed with epilepsy.[1

Anneliese Michel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before the trial, the parents asked the authorities for permission to exhume the remains of their daughter. They did so as a result of a message received from a Carmelite nun from the district of Allgäu in southern Bavaria. The nun had told the parents that a vision had revealed to her that their daughter’s body was still intact and that this authenticated the supernatural character of her case. The official reason presented by the parents to authorities was that Michel had been buried in undue hurry in a cheap coffin. Almost two years after the burial, on February 25, 1978, her remains were replaced in a new oak coffin lined with tin.

The official reports (to date undisputed by any authority ) state that the body bore the signs of consistent deterioration

More here

Exorcism | Religion News Blog

Like Anneliese this poor child had epilepsy

A priest and five members of the African Gospel Church congregation in Humansdorp, South Africa, have been accused of murdering a seven-year-old girl during a bizarre exorcism ritual, believing that her epilepsy was caused by demons.

This was only last year.............



The tragic results are a good example of why people with mental or other disorders should be treated by Doctors, not superstitious mumbo jumbo

 

[Polterwurst]

Man, that's sickening. A seven-year-old girl.

The tragic results are a good example of why people with mental or other disorders should be treated by Doctors, not superstitious mumbo jumbo

That's why I was so stunned about the papal order. I'm still a little reluctant to call the pope a superstitious mumbo-jumbo witch-doctor. I mean, what are these guys thinking? They might be overly religious, but that doesn't mean that they are totally ignorant. Many of them are well-educated, rational and versed in the sciences. I thought that about the old pope (who is said to have first proposed that exorcisms should be reinforced instead of forbidden) and I thought so about Mr. Ratzinger, even though I knew he would be quite conservative.

As far as I know, they do have psychologists look into these alleged possession cases. And they have to ascertain that it's more than just some mental problem, which means there have to be unexplainable "paranormal" elements, which they of course see as demonic in origin. But do they have more than just witness reports? Do they have proof? I can't see that in the Anneliese Michel case (don't know much about others).

I mean it's one thing if some mountain village priest far from modern society drives the devil from some uber-religous guy who thinks his psychosomatic illness is a sign of an evil spirit trying to possess him. But these guys in the Vatican? They should know better. At least I would like to think so.

And in Bavaria in the 1970s, epilepsy was well known, even to lesser educated people. And psychiatrists were involved, but couldn't help her. I come from a pretty rural place in Germany myself, where there is still many faithful christians, but I don't think anybody would have even thought of demonic possession if someone fell down with cramps back in that time. That's why I found this whole thing so hard to believe.

 

[bonaventura]

Keep in mind that dealing with mentally ill people, especially mentally ill children is very difficult. When my son was six, he had episodes in which it required both his parents to restrain him; he spoke in a very calm, seemingly rational voice quite unlike his usual one, mocking us and threatening to kill us, spitting at us and reacting violently to prayers. It would not have been difficult to have thought he was possessed.

 

[mike]

Personally i dont think any of them, are any more than mental health problems.
I think that sometimes people of a deeply religious perspective will interpret the symptoms via that filter, and i think thats a mistake.
Its another small facet of the dangers of fundimental/fanaticism.
Personally i dont think demons exist, but when you get gullible, impressionable people being told by a hierarchy they look up to and trust that they do, then inevitably they will "see" them.
Humans seem to have an almost hard wired reaction to externalising blame when things go bad.
Some people would rather blame the devil, than face the reality of a mental problem in the family/themselves.
Personally i see no shame in having a mental health issue, any more than there is with catching a cold, but sadly for a great deal of the populace, there is a stigma attached.

Ive never seen any evidence of paranormal stuff, on the contrary in the Michel case a nun had a vision the body had not decomposed (ie paranormal) but when the body was exhumed it showed consistant deterioration.
In the Joan Vollmer case here in australia, predictions she would be restored to life after she died, didnt happen

The death was not immediately reported: "Because…we received…phone calls from people…very sensitive to the Lord…that the Lord was going to raise her up."

Said Vollmer in the TV report: "I do not believe; I know this will happen. The whole thing has been God's plan from the very beginning and his name is going to be glorified like its never been before. Before her body is lowered into the grave he is going to raise her up again. And I hope and pray that your cameras will be there… because the Lord wants the world to see this."

Of course such a paranormal event didnt happen, which the husband then had to rationalise as

Hours before the burial Mr Vollmer still declared that he had received further "promises" of his wife's resurrection.

Present at the funeral were about 30 journalists and photographers, 50 mourners and scores of spectators. When the coffin was lowered and the wife didn't step out Mr Vollmer hypothesised that she liked her new home too much to return to this world.

Exorcism Goes Wrong in Victoria

But he doesnt address (with the typical blinkering we see in these situations) the "promises" that were not kept. Who lied ? was it the people "sensitive to the lord" or god himself.

In Australia, in the 1990's pig farmer Ralph Vollmer was convinced that his wife was possessed by the devil after she started running around the outback totally naked and yelling obscenities. He called in 23 year old Matthew Nuske, a part time exorcist, and two other accompices to help him.
Together they bound Mrs Vollmer to the fireplace and brutally beat her while a bible was repeatedly slammed into her face. Eventually Mrs Vollmer died but Nuske insisted that this was normal and that his renewed wife would arise from the corrupted bloody body within two days.
She didn't of course and Vollmer, Nuske and the two accomplices were convicted of manslaughter in 1994.

Vollmer was well aware of his wifes schizophrenia, she had been in hospital previously for it

Vollmer, a 54-year-old pig farmer, who, unable to cope with his wife's schizophrenia, sought to ''cure'' her by driving the devil from her soul - a process that amounted to seven days of torture and, finally, her death by cardiac arrest. The brutal details of the exorcism were later presented during Vollmer's County Court trial, as was Vollmer's conviction that his actions, performed to Christian song and Bible readings, had been God's will.

Sadly there is a very very long list of other people who have been "cured" here

Exorcism | Religion News Blog

And while this list is more a reflection of "crazy people do crazy things" the church needs to be very careful about encouraging the idea that demons posess people

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Has anyone here actually heard someone 'speaking in tounges'?
Years ago, when I was around 13, a friend of an aunt sat me down to basically 'convert' me. He wasn't happy that I had an'Iron Maiden album and he proceeded to tell me about how he had been saved from a life of drugs by becoming a born-again christian. I have no problem with anyone who turns a bad life around because of becoming religious.
What I did not like was his belief, nay conviction, that anyone who does not become a born-again christian would go to hell etc. No ifs, no buts, if you did not go through the ritual of becoming born-again, you would go to hell. Now, my family, living in the islands to the west of Scotland, are about as religious and clean-living as it is possible to be. But they were not 'born-again' and so according to my newly-converted friend, they would indeed be going to hell!
It is this type of religious belief that I am worried about.
If indeed there is a God etc, then I would be very surprised if he would want my aunt and uncle to go to hell? They have never committed any crime, they say grace at every meal and they attend church several times a week. But more important than going through the expected rituals of belief, they are just good people who work hard, care for others in their community and give thanks to their god for their life. As much as it might make me feel smug to find out they are actually hippocrites, getting up to all sorts of mischief, it is not the case and they are exactly as they appear to be - decent people going through life without doing it at the expense of others. I would want nothing to do with any god who would condemn such good people.
Anyway, this friend who was trying to convert me, told me about 'speaking in tounges', so I of course asked him to do just that. Que someone squirming and making all sorts of excuses rather than just do what he'd told me he did all the time.
So I really want to know if anyone has ever heard a devoutly religious person speak in tounges in front of a non-believer. Does it happen? What does it sound like? Is it an actual physical phenomena or is it just something that happens in the minds of believers?
All this stuff about exorcism is reminding me about this guy. Watching movies about exorcism, I am reminded about speaking in tounges. It looks like that is what those supposedly posessed are doing sometimes. If that is the 'evil' side, then what about the 'good' side?
I think that religious belief like many things can be taken to extremes, just like ufology. Just as I am interested in ufology but not the nutters who make a whole belief system around it, I am fine with religion but not when it is taken to extremes. I just wonder if those involved in both sides of an exorcism (the posessed and the exorcist) are just examples of belief taken to the nth degree - one side believing so strongly that they believe they are posessed and another side validating that belief by 'playing along'?
Hmmmm.

 

[bonaventura]

This a very interesting question. At one time, Pentecostals claimed that tongues were real human languages, given to enable missionaries to preach. There were some very sad cases of Pentecostals going off to strange places, confident that that Spirit would preach through them, only to find that it was not so. While leaving the door open for actual foreign tongues (which, as far as I know, have never been documented, though anecdotes, usually third person, have been told) Pentecostals began describing the tongues as "angelic" ("Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels," says Paul in 1st Corinthians). Now they are often referred to as a "personal prayer language."

I have heard Pentecostals and charismatics speak and sing in tongues (the singing can be quite beautiful). The speech sounds like the words we used to make up as kids trying to create our own languages. My son used to have a nonsense language called Stephanese, which I managed (so he said) to become fluent in. Linguists analyzing tongues have shown that they do not have the structure of a real language.

Though at one time, I think, tongues were regarded as a gift and were received spontaneously during services and prayer meetings, they have become something taught to believers, who are encouraged to begin by consciously making sounds and then letting themselves go.

Tongues, by the way, are by no means restricted to Christians; they, like other ecstatic phenomena, occur in many religions.

 

[mike]

The born again issue is one i always find intriguing.
To the born again , you dont get into heaven unless you acknowledge jesus as messiah, but in judaism

Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.[2] However, since the general Jewish belief is that the Messiah has not yet come and that the Messianic Age is not yet present, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism. At the heart of Judaism are the Torah, its commandments, the Tanakh, and ethical monotheism such as in the Shema — all of which predated Jesus.

Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.

Jesus is a false prophet and his worship idolatry. clearly both traditions dont sit down side by side at the pearly buffet, one goes to heaven the other doesnt.


On speaking in tongues

Plenty more on the tubes.

Personally i think encouraging this in children, is just asking for "issues" later in life.
I have a newphew being raised by a sister in law, who's into this stuff in a very big way, and the poor kid is not fitting in at school, he tells the jewish and muslim kids they are going to hell, kicks up a stink at Xmas, when the decorations go up. and is totally socially isolated as a result of what i can only describe as his mothers brainwashing.
But the poor sod, clearly believes he's the only righteous one in class, he see's almost his entire environment as a reflction of satan's hold on the world.

 

[boomerang]

What's the old adage about the difference between speaking to God and hearing God's voice directly? The first is accepted as within the bounds of good mental and spiritual health. The latter is regarded as looney. This seems a proper balance.

Still, the veneer of "modern" civilization is darned thin and history suggests that what lies underneath ain't pretty.

 

[trainedobserver]

Glossolalia isn't restricted to Christianity or religion. It has a couple of origins but neither is supernatural. One of them is as a learned behavior which accounts for much of what is known as speaking in tongues today. I really think that everyone is capable of doing it on demand, the major hurtle is simply allowing yourself to do it. Think Jazz singing or whatever.

 

[Polterwurst]

I don't think anyone would count glossolalia as evidence for anything. It's obviously nonsensical and reminds me a little of channeling, where I guess the subconscious is also happily wandering about, making not much sense (but at least forming real words).

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Xenoglossy, where real existing (sometimes dead) languages are said to be spoken fluently although the speaker allegedly never learned to speak them. My interest comes from cases of alleged reincarnation were this is said to have happened (mostly under hypnosis). You'll find a few cases in the above wikipedia link under "Cases subjected to scientific investigation". So maybe there could be alternative explanations to what the "exorcism experts" would call smoking-gun evidence for possession-induced xenoglossy (if they have any).

@mike: Predictions about a dead wife being resurrected or a body not decomposing, which are obviously motivated by religious fanaticism, is not what I meant by "paranormal" evidence. I'm wondering, if these exorcists have to ascertain that it's not some mental problem, what do they count as evidence against that? In the movie "The Rite" it was indicated that there was stuff like clairvoyance or mindreading going on. Xenoglossy would be another one (if pronounced genuine by a language expert).

But I guess you're right. If they had real proof, they would probably not hold it back. Although, as I said, even if that evidence couldn't easily be explained away by natural means, it could still be things like remote viewing combined with fanatical religiousness etc.

 

[trainedobserver]

Although I've seen many claims of xenoglossy, some in the Pentecostal community, they have always been proven to be false. I too have heard this used as proof of reincarnation, although again, I've never seen where those claims pan out.