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Clifford Mahooty September 20



Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
So as I expected, I was shaking my head through out most of this episode. I had a really hard time with every single story that Clifford said.
It's so easy to say that you see all these wonderful things and then produce nothing to back it up - we just have to take his word for it. Sounds a lot like Ray Stanford. Also, I have no idea how Chris can say that there was no response to what Standford had to say. We're still waiting for his photos, films, and audio.

Clifford did have some interesting stories, and that's what I will consider them. Taken with that in mind, it was a great episode, and the hosting was top-notch. Thanks for asking my question (good try with the pronunciation Gene). I guess I should have made it clear that First Nations = Native American in Canada. It seems as though the question was answered without that in mind. No worries, I appreciated Mr. Mahooty for taking the time to answer my question.

Angelo
 

Shaunduhpostman

Paranormal Novice
I thought the Cliff Mahooty show was a good one. The cross-cultural angle is important, otherwise it's easy to say that the ufo phenomena is just some cultural/psychological pop culture backwash that is projected onto the sky through people's eyeballs and imaginations.

I've read and seen a lot about the Kachinas being sky beings who help humans in all these ways and about the underground beings rescuing humans and saving them from the last world apocalypse. Frank Waters' book, "The Book of the Hopi" comes to mind. I'd be interested in hearing more specifics about the Kachinas, that whole thing has always fascinated me. Perhaps particular Kachinas have certain parallels to some of the entities that experiencers are meeting up with or something like that. It'd be great to have Clifford on in the future and hear him go more in depth on some of the things he touched on. I don't know, perhaps it is not appropriate for him to reveal much of that to outsiders, but maybe he was just sticking to the basics with some of the traditional stuff simply because he wanted to just introduce it to people who were not yet familiar. But the stories about his personal experiences were quite interesting and the whole bit about the prohibition on looking up into the sky among the Zuni. Seems to suggest there has been a long an intense interaction between the Zuni and the sky people, I feel very curious to know more.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
It is interesting that he is essentially saying the same thing as the C.E. group. That is because we are not following the teachings, protocols, rituals, etc., etc. of a particular superstitious belief system, UFOs are appearing for some punitive reason.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
Yes brother, the UFO Apocalypse may yet be averted if we can get our Pin Ball scores up to snuff.

Of course you know I was referring to the Collins Elite, which has now found a home in UFO lore and can be referred to by their initials.

I actually had no idea you were referring to the Collins Elite. I looked them up and I have no idea what they are.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
I read through that thread quickly, but I haven't commented on it. Anyway, I seem to have thrown this thread into a tangent and I don't want to do that. Sorry, and let's continue discussing Mr. Mahooty's appearance on the show.
 

Christopher O'Brien

Back in the Saddle Aginn
Staff member
Yeah, the show was no biggum coup', so what if it was the first time a Zuni elder has been broadcast and possibly the first time a Pueblo Medicine Society elder has ever been interviewed by the media about their sacred star knowledge.... Nothing to learn here--keep moving.
 

FletcherMunson

Skilled Investigator
Yeah, the show was no biggum coup', so what if it was the first time a Zuni elder has been broadcast and possibly the first time a Pueblo Medicine Society elder has ever been interviewed by the media about their sacred star knowledge.... Nothing to learn here--keep moving.

Lower the cannons, friend... it's only Day Two. :)

Maybe this thread will pick up steam -- unlike that last Stanford thread, right? :)
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
Yeah, the show was no biggum coup', so what if it was the first time a Zuni elder has been broadcast and possibly the first time a Pueblo Medicine Society elder has ever been interviewed by the media about their sacred star knowledge.... Nothing to learn here--keep moving.

You seem to have a lot of trouble with any criticism. This is an internet forum, and a tame one at that. I would recommend you stay away from NeoGaf. Definitely don't give Halo: Reach a score below 10/10. You want harsh criticism, try discussing videogames - people on the Paracast forum seem to provide nothing but well thought out criticism. You don't have to like it, but don't be childish about it either.
I enjoyed the interview for what it was - an intelligent man discussing the myths and legends of his culture. As soon as you start taking these legends as something that has physically manifested itself and saying that they're spacebrothers is where lose focus.
 

Christopher O'Brien

Back in the Saddle Aginn
Staff member
You seem to have a lot of trouble with any criticism. You don't have to like it, but don't be childish about it either.
I don't have trouble with criticism actually I welcome the kind of opinions found here. I just get a little tired of people not realizing the significance and importance of what a show like Clifford's represents historically. My jokes may be a bit dry for you serious-as-cancer types, oh well, I ain't changing.
I enjoyed the interview for what it was - an intelligent man discussing the myths and legends of his culture. As soon as you start taking these legends as something that has physically manifested itself and saying that they're spacebrothers is where [sic] lose focus.
BTW: Who says your reality view is any more real or important or relevant than Clifford's? Just curious...[/QUOTE]
 

Shaunduhpostman

Paranormal Novice
It is interesting that he is essentially saying the same thing as the C.E. group. That is because we are not following the teachings, protocols, rituals, etc., etc. of a particular superstitious belief system, UFOs are appearing for some punitive reason.

Yeah, I agree that's part of it, I'm not sure he was necessarily saying they're here to mete out punishment, but yeah, to administer some kind of corrective action to get people back on the right track. There seems to be this overseer function as well it seemed from what he was saying too, which we get a lot of from the contactees. But from what I gathered he's also saying that the sky people are diverse and complex, towards the end of the show he mentioned that there are "good guys and bad guys" out there just as there are among humans. Also pretty similar to what we're getting from the contactees. What I'd like to know is more about that, more about specifically who they are from the Zuni perspective, what in particular is bad or good about them.

I'm pretty sure I've read the Hopi or Zuni take on the Kachinas somewhere, that they have already fulfilled their function and that there are these other entities that are mostly up to no good, that are coming here now. I'd like to hear his take on that in the future, and are there other entities from the sky in Zuni cosmology besides the Kachina and what are some of the stories about them.

I think one thing that has bugged me about the messages from the space brothers is the philosophical, poetic, mythological, cultural poverty of their communiques, supposedly from beings whom I might imagine are living very complex possibly very rich lives, and who would have an amazing level of knowledge and experiences to report from millenia of bopping around the universe and various dimensions. To my mind, the apparent richness of the Kachina and medicine society lore suggests more of that than the Oral Roberts in the sky doods who tend to visit the contactees of the post-industrialized world and who don't seem to have much more to offer than "Bad humans! Nuclear bombs bad! Bad!"
 

stphrz

Stuffed Tiger
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, out of left field comes an uncharacteristic post by forum grouch stphrz.

Try not to faint.

At about the 83 minute mark of the episode Clifford was recounting the incident where he, his brother and his brother's girlfriend were fleeing from a UFO and got picked up by a slow moving vintage car with two weird characters inside.

For me, the account got very interesting at this point:

and in the back, there was a guy sitting in there where my brother and his girlfriend jumped in. And this guy was holding two dolls, a Raggedy Ann and a Raggedy Andy dolls and just looking at us.

Save for his description of the interior of the car and the above statement, the account was short on this kind of detail.

Time for a little history now. History of Raggedy Ann and the history of the Zuni.

Raggedy Ann was created by a writer named Johnny Gruelle for his daughter Marcella. Marcella died at the age of 13 after being vaccinated for smallpox at school. Gruelle blamed the vaccination for his daughter's death and Raggedy Ann became a symbol of the the anti-vaccination movement.

It turns out in addition to many other hardships and injustices in Zuni history, they like many other Native American communites suffered a severe smallpox epidemic:

"Anglo - American interaction with Zuni increased after the Civil War. The people had to deal with the coming of the railroad, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, cattle ranchers, settlements, Protestant missionaries, boarding schools, anthropologists, and land speculators. The smallpox epidemic of 1889 - 1899 further devastated them."

http://southwestcrossroads.org/record.php?num=2

From other websites I checked out I got the impression this epidemic was especially bad even compared to epidemics suffered by other Native American tribes.

Now, I don't know if I'm off base and just reading too much into this. It's probably just coincidence and doesn't mean anything. However, I do find the symbolism here quite striking. It's the first time I've heard or read about Raggedy Ann in connection with a UFO/high strangeness account.

As for what it could possibly mean, I'm not sure . An omen? A threat? A warning? A promise of rescue from disaster?

I'd be interested in knowing what Clifford thinks about this.
 

Siani

Despiser of religious nuts
I'm only part of the way through this episode, but would like to thank the hosts for introducing us to a whole new perspective on the UFO issue. Native Americans are often wary about sharing their culture with outsiders, some tribes more than others, so I'm especially impressed that Gene and Chris were able to get Mr. Mahooty on the show.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
I don't have trouble with criticism actually I welcome the kind of opinions found here. I just get a little tired of people not realizing the significance and importance of what a show like Clifford's represents historically. My jokes may be a bit dry for you serious-as-cancer types, oh well, I ain't changing.
BTW: Who says your reality view is any more real or important or relevant than Clifford's? Just curious...
[/QUOTE]

Christopher, if you actually knew me, you'd know I have one of the goofiest senses of humour, but you don't. However, since my basis of reality is what is part of me, it's important to me, as much as his is important to him. I just don't go on the radio and talk about it.

Also, I don't think you were joking. But maybe that's just my warped sense of reality.
 

J.T.

Maybe Logic
Just finished the show and I have to say this was a wonderful episode. I don't mean it from the point of view of ufo research or personal anecdotes, but from the deeper context of cultural and historical perspective.

I don't understand how anybody could be 'shaking their head' throughout, or compare it the Ray Stanford episode. First of all, anything approaching personal experience happened after only the first hour, which was dedicated to explaining how the oral history of the Zuni people is passed on generation after generation. This to me appears certainly as significant and trustworthy as the stories from, say, the bible. I'm not a bible (or religion) expert, but the bible was written much after the events supposedly happened, and as such are probably less reliable than a codified telling of history. How they have codified these stories in numerous ways may not contain the 'hard data' required by dogmatic and scientific researchers, but the discussion of the Zuni system of carrying the information through the ages in itself was highly informative and illuminating.

The discussion related to culture and language was also significant. Being bilingual myself, there are concepts and words I find very difficult to convey in both languages (Finnish and English) with equal force and preciseness. When you add the differences in culture and history to the mix, the problem multiplies exponentially.

So as long as you are not looking for 'hard data' from this episode, you would be foolish not to find some of the cultural and anthropological detail in the interview worthwhile. Clifford's own peculiar experiences were not those of a trained 'western' observer, but they were events he viewed through his particular 'reality tunnel' and interpreted thus. I may disagree with his conclusions or interpretations, but I can very much appreciate him sharing them, attempting to interpret them from his point of view, and then attempting to convey his cultural and historical viewpoint to us.

I find his stories more believable than I do those many people close to me believe, like that old one about a white bearded guy sitting in a cloud reading our minds, starting wars and hurricanes, and consigning some to eternal damnation for saying his name out loud. It's all perspective. Check your own reality tunnel and adjust it accordingly.

Oh, and greetings to a fellow pothead pixie riding his teapot taxi.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
So as long as you are not looking for 'hard data' from this episode, you would be foolish not to find some of the cultural and anthropological detail in the interview worthwhile. Clifford's own peculiar experiences were not those of a trained 'western' observer, but they were events he viewed through his particular 'reality tunnel' and interpreted thus. I may disagree with his conclusions or interpretations, but I can very much appreciate him sharing them, attempting to interpret them from his point of view, and then attempting to convey his cultural and historical viewpoint to us.

I totally agree with you there.
 
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